Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mjb1985]

It's just for my enjoyment. I don't think many would say any list I make is all willy nilly jumbly mess. I have the impression that a good amount of people have found my lists enjoyable.

[Kamiccolo9]

So, this subject has come up a lot in the in-universe forums lately, so I figured I'd make a list for Movie 5 Power Levels

I’m using the V-Jump and Weekly Jump numbers as a framework for this. I see no point in ignoring them, since they can work with a little effort.
1. Goku (Base, Beginning)-3,200,000-Goku is said by Roshi to have gotten stronger since he got back from Namek.
2. Goku (Base, Post Zenkai)-11,000,000-Zenkais are stated to have gotten almost unnoticeable, but this is a less than 4x zenkai, as opposed to his previous 33x zenkai. I’m assuming that they gradually decreased, and eventually faded away, instead of disappearing immediately.
3. Goku (Kaio-Ken x10) 110,000,000-Enough to have “possibly defeated my brother” I’m assuming that Cooler is referring to 100% Freeza.
4. Goku (Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha)220,000,000+some.-Twice as strong as the x10, plus whatever Goku managed to cram into the Kamehameha. Easily tanked by Cooler though.
5. Goku (Super Saiyan)-550,000,000-Strong enough to stomp Cooler, yet still have trouble with Cooler’s supernova.
6. Gohan-100,000-200,000-Same as the Freeza Arc. I don’t think he’s gotten much stronger yet. The lower end powers are for when he gets weakened by having his tail grabbed, and he tends to doubt himself, limiting his power.
7. Piccolo-1,500,000-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc. Piccolo tends to toy with enemies in this movie, as seen with him getting Neiz’ hopes up, and not immediately dispatching Salza.
8. Krillin-75,500-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc.
9. Oolong-Totally irrelevant-Nuff Said.
10. Neiz-163,000-Tougher than any of the Ginyus, and strong enough to beat a weakened Gohan, but fodder for Piccolo.
11. Doore-180,000-The toughest of the group, but he’s pretty dumb, so Salza is the leader. Weakened Gohan by grabbing his tail.
12. Salza-170,000-The leader of Cooler’s group, said to be a genius, and has power ki attacks, such as his “ki blade,” which I see as similar to the Kienzan in effect. Manages to surprise Piccolo with that, but is otherwise toyed with by Piccolo, and Piccolo, even though he is severely wounded, takes out Salza easily in the end.
13. Cooler-100,000,000.-Slightly weaker than Freeza’s max, and also slightly weaker than Kaio-Ken x10 Goku. Can easily dispatch Piccolo.
14. Cooler (Final Form)-470,000,000- V-Jump number, makes him far superior to even Kaio-Ken x20 Goku, and he is easily able to tank his Kamehameha. Manages to take some hits from SSJ Goku, and is capable of briefly overpowering him with his Supernova technique.
15. Cooler’s Supernova-600,000,000-Nice even number that’s stronger than SSJ Goku.
16. SSJ Goku’s Kamehameha-600,000,000+ - anything above the Supernova works.

[Draken]

So was Goku using invisible kaioken that whole movie?

[Kamiccolo9]

So was Goku using invisible kaioken that whole movie?

Pretty much. The fight is pretty short, and Goku knows he's up against a Freeza level opponent, so no point in holding back.
Otherwise Cooler would have to be heavily suppressed the whole movie, and I see no point in him transforming if he could have just powered up to 60-70% and just stomped Goku.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The invisible Kaioken doesn't work though. We see Goku using Kaioken x10 when Transformed Cooler starts beating the crap out of Goku. You are making Goku stronger than he needs to be. It's pretty easy to take what Cooler says with a grain of salt or to simply not take what Cooler's says literally. In fact I have yet to even see this line that Cooler gives in it's entirety, I would like to see it. Cooler could have merely suggested that Goku, wielding a power level of about 4,000,000 lets say, getting the jump on Freeza with a condensed energy attack; did a Suppressed Freeza in. It's not hard to believe when, you know, Freeza actually did suppress himself to about 2% early on in the his fight with Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

The invisible Kaioken doesn't work though. We see Goku using Kaioken x10 when Transformed Cooler starts beating the crap out of Goku. You are making Goku stronger than he needs to be. It's pretty easy to take what Cooler says with a grain of salt or to simply not take what Cooler's says literally. In fact I have yet to even see this line that Cooler gives in it's entirety, I would like to see it. Cooler could have merely suggested that Goku, wielding a power level of about 4,000,000 lets say, getting the jump on Freeza with a condensed energy attack; did a Suppressed Freeza in. It's not hard to believe when, you know, Freeza actually did suppress himself to about 2% early on in the his fight with Goku.

The purpose of this list was to work in the V Jump and Weekly Jump numbers. Regardless of whether you think they are valid or not doesn't really matter, since I'm not debating the accuracy of them, just using those as a base. Assuming those numbers are correct, this is the list I came up with.

Hmm you do as well as i expected. Enough to have defeated my brother.

Cooler says this when he's standing in front of the waterfall right before he transforms. He doesn't say," surprised and ambushed my brother," he says "defeated," which implies that he believed that there was a fight.
Also, Cooler should know how tough his species is. Freeza survived a beating by Goku, getting chopped in half, being hit with a Kamehameha when he had practically no energy, and then survived Namek exploding in his face. Their species can take a lot of punishment. So Goku being only slightly stronger than Freeza wouldn't be enough to destroy him. At least not in a fight, which is what Cooler seems to be suggesting.

And since Cooler went into this fight knowing, or at least suspecting, that the guy he's fighting killed his brother, I don't see him suppressing himself to a negligible amount of his full power. Otherwise, he could have just powered up and stomped Goku without transforming. I think that Cooler was either maxxed out in his 4th form (assuming he can do this without having to bulk up like Freeza), or at the 70-80% stage. And Goku seemed to have the edge during their short fight, so I place him somewhat stronger than Cooler while using the Kaio-Ken x10, since I didn't want to push Goku up to the hundred millions in base.

As for the Kaio-Ken, I'm assuming that when you see it, he's using the x20 in bursts. The rest of the time it is the x10.

[TheMightyOzaru]

His statement doesn't apply that at all =/. It's what you think he implied. Goku only uses Kaioken x20 when he fires off the Kamehameha. Cooler only transformed just because. I absolutely refuse to accept to take what Cooler says literally.

[Kamiccolo9]

His statement doesn't apply that at all =/. It's what you think he implied. Goku only uses Kaioken x20 when he fires off the Kamehameha.

What do you think it implies then?
Since Goku doesn't say x10 or x20, we don't really know.

[RandomGuy96]

So, this subject has come up a lot in the in-universe forums lately, so I figured I'd make a list for Movie 5 Power Levels

I’m using the V-Jump and Weekly Jump numbers as a framework for this. I see no point in ignoring them, since they can work with a little effort.
1. Goku (Base, Beginning)-3,200,000-Goku is said by Roshi to have gotten stronger since he got back from Namek.
2. Goku (Base, Post Zenkai)-11,000,000-Zenkais are stated to have gotten almost unnoticeable, but this is a less than 4x zenkai, as opposed to his previous 33x zenkai. I’m assuming that they gradually decreased, and eventually faded away, instead of disappearing immediately.
3. Goku (Kaio-Ken x10) 110,000,000-Enough to have “possibly defeated my brother” I’m assuming that Cooler is referring to 100% Freeza.
4. Goku (Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha)220,000,000+some.-Twice as strong as the x10, plus whatever Goku managed to cram into the Kamehameha. Easily tanked by Cooler though.
5. Goku (Super Saiyan)-550,000,000-Strong enough to stomp Cooler, yet still have trouble with Cooler’s supernova.
6. Gohan-100,000-200,000-Same as the Freeza Arc. I don’t think he’s gotten much stronger yet. The lower end powers are for when he gets weakened by having his tail grabbed, and he tends to doubt himself, limiting his power.
7. Piccolo-1,500,000-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc. Piccolo tends to toy with enemies in this movie, as seen with him getting Neiz’ hopes up, and not immediately dispatching Salza.
8. Krillin-75,500-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc.
9. Oolong-Totally irrelevant-Nuff Said.
10. Neiz-163,000-Tougher than any of the Ginyus, and strong enough to beat a weakened Gohan, but fodder for Piccolo.
11. Doore-180,000-The toughest of the group, but he’s pretty dumb, so Salza is the leader. Weakened Gohan by grabbing his tail.
12. Salza-170,000-The leader of Cooler’s group, said to be a genius, and has power ki attacks, such as his “ki blade,” which I see as similar to the Kienzan in effect. Manages to surprise Piccolo with that, but is otherwise toyed with by Piccolo, and Piccolo, even though he is severely wounded, takes out Salza easily in the end.
13. Cooler-100,000,000.-Slightly weaker than Freeza’s max, and also slightly weaker than Kaio-Ken x10 Goku. Can easily dispatch Piccolo.
14. Cooler (Final Form)-470,000,000- V-Jump number, makes him far superior to even Kaio-Ken x20 Goku, and he is easily able to tank his Kamehameha. Manages to take some hits from SSJ Goku, and is capable of briefly overpowering him with his Supernova technique.
15. Cooler’s Supernova-600,000,000-Nice even number that’s stronger than SSJ Goku.
16. SSJ Goku’s Kamehameha-600,000,000+ - anything above the Supernova works.

This is usually my train of thought when trying to use the V-Jump levels. And honestly, I should use them, because they fit the statements more, but I don't for the purposes of fitting it in the manga timeline. While there's nothing wrong with an out of timeline or simply anime character being that strong around the android arc, the low scaling needed to fit the BOG statement would probably make V-Jump's Cooler above 17 and 18, for instance...

I do think that Goku should be stronger, though. Maybe a Goku vs Freeza gap would be appropriate. And you all know how I feel about the official levels for the Armored Squadron.

[TheMightyOzaru]

His statement doesn't apply that at all =/. It's what you think he implied. Goku only uses Kaioken x20 when he fires off the Kamehameha.

What do you think it implies then?
Since Goku doesn't say x10 or x20, we don't really know.

I think it's pretty obvious he only uses it when he fires the Kamehameha. I think he implies he could have defeated his brother with a surprise power increase.... You know, like how he surprised Cooler with a punch to the face. I take anything anyone says that defies logic with a grain of salt. Goku is NOT using invisible Kaioken and Goku is NOT stronger than 50% Freeza. It's all bull shit.

[Kamiccolo9]

His statement doesn't apply that at all =/. It's what you think he implied. Goku only uses Kaioken x20 when he fires off the Kamehameha.

What do you think it implies then?
Since Goku doesn't say x10 or x20, we don't really know.

I think it's pretty obvious he only uses it when he fires the Kamehameha. I think he implies he could have defeated his brother with a surprise power increase.... I take anything anyone says that defies logic with a grain of salt. Goku is NOT using invisible Kaioken and Goku is NOT stronger than 50% Freeza. It's all bull shit.

It's a movie, it does what it wants. These are the same people who put out anime filler and GT, so they make their own logic.

This is usually my train of thought when trying to use the V-Jump levels. And honestly, I should use them, because they fit the statements more, but I don't for the purposes of fitting it in the manga timeline. While there's nothing wrong with an out of timeline or simply anime character being that strong around the android arc, the low scaling needed to fit the BOG statement would probably make V-Jump's Cooler above 17 and 18, for instance...

I do think that Goku should be stronger, though. Maybe a Goku vs Freeza gap would be appropriate. And you all know how I feel about the official levels for the Armored Squadron.

Well, I apply BOG to the manga, not the anime. Or at least the Freeza>Base Saiyans quote. Since the Chozenshu decided to force this movie into the anime timeline (not really happy about that), the only way for it to really work is to scale up everything that happens afterwards, making anime characters much stronger than their manga counterparts. I don't really have a problem with that though. And I could bump Goku up to 12 million, but I don't really wanna go higher than a 4x zenkai. I think the gap I have now works pretty well.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And I do the best I can to make sense of the bull shit. It's pretty easy to work around the bull shit when you put some thought into it. If anything you can say I apply Manga logic to all movies.

[Kamiccolo9]

And I do the best I can to make sense of the bull shit. It's pretty easy to work around the bull shit when you put some thought into it. If anything you can say I apply Manga logic to all movies.

What about Gohan being able to one-shot Freeza in base in movie 12? Or SSJ Goku taking out a guy who gave Gotenks trouble in the 2008 Special?
Not saying it's impossible, but I find it way easier to think that the movies and anime do their own thing, especially if some of the movies are to be considered in the same timeline as the anime. And I'm pretty sure GT was in there as well.
As for the movie, as I said, I'm purposefully basing it off the numbers given in V and Weekly Jump. If Cooler's at 470 million, and was able to give Goku some problem with his attack, then Goku would have to be, at a minimum, 500 million in SSJ. Divide that by 50, and you get 10 million. I think that's too small a gap though, so I put Goku at 11 million instead.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And I do the best I can to make sense of the bull shit. It's pretty easy to work around the bull shit when you put some thought into it. If anything you can say I apply Manga logic to all movies.

What about Gohan being able to one-shot Freeza in base in movie 12? Or SSJ Goku taking out a guy who gave Gotenks trouble in the 2008 Special?
Not saying it's impossible, but I find it way easier to think that the movies and anime do their own thing, especially if some of the movies are to be considered in the same timeline as the anime. And I'm pretty sure GT was in there as well.
As for the movie, as I said, I'm purposefully basing it off the numbers given in V and Weekly Jump. If Cooler's at 470 million, and was able to give Goku some problem with his attack, then Goku would have to be, at a minimum, 500 million in SSJ. Divide that by 50, and you get 10 million. I think that's too small a gap though, so I put Goku at 11 million instead.

Freeza was using 10% of his power. Gotenks was lollygagging, Goku took it seriously. Coolers V-Jump level are in support of Budokai 3 so it doesn't count. Video games have levels that differ from the manga. It's very easy to make things work.

[Kamiccolo9]

And I do the best I can to make sense of the bull shit. It's pretty easy to work around the bull shit when you put some thought into it. If anything you can say I apply Manga logic to all movies.

What about Gohan being able to one-shot Freeza in base in movie 12? Or SSJ Goku taking out a guy who gave Gotenks trouble in the 2008 Special?
Not saying it's impossible, but I find it way easier to think that the movies and anime do their own thing, especially if some of the movies are to be considered in the same timeline as the anime. And I'm pretty sure GT was in there as well.
As for the movie, as I said, I'm purposefully basing it off the numbers given in V and Weekly Jump. If Cooler's at 470 million, and was able to give Goku some problem with his attack, then Goku would have to be, at a minimum, 500 million in SSJ. Divide that by 50, and you get 10 million. I think that's too small a gap though, so I put Goku at 11 million instead.

Freeza was using 10% of his power. Gotenks was lollygagging, Goku took it seriously. Coolers V-Jump level are in support of Budokai 3 so it doesn't count. Video games have levels that differ from the manga. It's very easy to make things work.

I don't care what the numbers were from, I'm just using them as the basis for this list. Using those numbers, I feel that what I have is pretty accurate. And who says it doesn't count, anyway? Why would they bother to waste time, money, and ink, to tell people "Hey guys! These are the numbers that we give these awesome characters in this game! They are totally irrelevant for everything else, but here they are anyway!"
I think that the intent was more for "Hey, we have these cool new characters in this game, and, as an extra bonus, here are their power levels! Enjoy!"
You may disagree with whether they work or not, but unless you know why they were put there in the first place, you can't say "they don't count."

[TheMightyOzaru]

Many video games have power level lists, for example:
Dragon Ball Z Assault! The Saiyans
Oozaru Gohan: 10,000

Pumpkin: 400
Brocco: 500

Sansho: 1,300
Nikki: 1,200
Ginger: 1,500
Garlic Junior (normal form): 2,500
Garlic Junior (transformed): 3,500

Raditz: 1,500
Nappa: 4,000
Oozaru Vegeta: 70,000

Kaio: 4,500

Dragon Ball Z: The Violent God, Freeza!!
Appule: 6,000
Kui: 19,000
Dodoria: 22,000
Zarbon (normal): 23,000
Zarbon (transformed): 55,000

Gurd: 19,000
Recoom: 71,000
Jhees: 64,000
Baata: 68,000
Ginyu: 160,000

Freeza (first form): 530,000
Freeza (all other forms): immeasurable

Dragon Ball Z: The Super Saiya Legend
Raditz: 1,500
Nappa: 4,000
Oozaru Vegeta: 180,000

Appule: 1,500 or 1,700
Oren: 4,600 or 5,600

Kaio: 4,000

Kui: 18,000
Dodoria: 22,000
Zarbon (normal): 23,000
Zarbon (transformed): 30,000
Gurd: 13,500
Recoom: 65,000
Burta: 62,500
Jhees: 64,000

Freeza (first form): 530,000
Freeza (second form): 1,000,000
Freeza (third form): 1,550,000
Freeza (final form): 3,000,000

Super Saiyan Vegeta: 6,000,000

Dragon Ball Z: Goku's Soaring Legend
Cyborg Tao Pai Pai: 115
Tenshinhan (23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai): 218
Piccolo (23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai): 325
Raditz: 1,200
Saibaiman: 3,000
Nappa: 7,000
Vegeta: 15,000

Dragon Ball Z: Goku's Legendary Fierce Fighting
Appule: 1,520

Kui: 19,080
Dodoria: 21,500
Zarbon (normal): 20,400
Zarbon (transformed): 34,000

Ginyu: 120,000 to 240,000
Recoom: 52,000
Jhees: 50,120
Burta: 50,600
Gurd: 11,850

Freeza (first form): 250,000
Freeza (second form): 530,000
Freeza (third form): 1,100,000
Freeza (fourth form): 2,500,000
Freeza (full power): 5,000,000

Dragon Ball Z: Sagas
Raditz: 1,200
Nappa: 4,000
Recoom: 40,000
Burta and Jhees: 95,000
Freeza (final form): 12,000,000
Soba: 14,000,000

Dragon Ball Z: Attack of the Saiyans
Carrotizer Bunny: 121
Piccolo (23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai): 292
Annin: 330

Shu Machine: 432
Mai Machine: 461
Merged Pilaf Robot: 2,280

Gozu: 541
Snake Princess: 546
Snake Princess (snake form): 891

Hatchan: 888
General White: 800

Raditz: 1,500
Nappa: 4,000
Oozaru Vegeta: 180,000

Broli: 999,999
I most certainly can say they don't count.

[Kamiccolo9]

Many video games have power level lists, for example:

I most certainly can say they don't count.

None of those were from this list. And these power levels were not said to be specifically for the game. Does Budokai 3 even have power levels in the game?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Many video games have power level lists, for example:

I most certainly can say they don't count.

None of those were from this list. And these power levels were not said to be specifically for the game. Does Budokai 3 even have power levels in the game?

Budokai 3 models:

This was a promotion for Budokai 3. They DON'T count.

[Kamiccolo9]

Many video games have power level lists, for example:

I most certainly can say they don't count.

None of those were from this list. And these power levels were not said to be specifically for the game. Does Budokai 3 even have power levels in the game?

Budokai 3 models:

This was a promotion for Budokai 3. They DON'T count.

Do power levels appear in the game? Why does being a promotion discount them? Why should I discount these numbers if I don't want to? They are from the same people who put out Weekly Jump, the Daizenshuu, and the Chozenshu, after all. I'm not saying that they have to be, or even should be, considered infallible, but you're in no position to say that they absolutely cannot count.
And the models may be from the game, but the scenes are from the movies.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If you want to accept that absurd number, go for it. It's still a Budokai 3 promotion. The Toei website doesn't even have these numbers on their site last time I checked. This leads me to believe they think they are wrong as well.