Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

[Fionordequester]

To that I would counter with DBZ and DB aren't two very different shows. Yeah it changes over time but they aren't radically different, much less require different music.

The stakes are much higher in Z, the villains are much less comedic, the scenary changes much more often into more epic surroundings, people die much more often (though I heard the death count was pretty high in the Piccolo Arc), there's a lot more super-powered shenanigans and energy beams rather than the mainly hand-to-hand martial arts of Dragon Ball, and even much much of the cast is changed in favor of more serious characters like Trunks and Vegeta. And also, while there isn't a TON of this in Z either, there's more personal conflict, like with Gohan overcoming his pacifistic tendencies against Cell, Vegeta being...Vegeta, Trunk's pining for his respect to the point of waiting till he got knocked out by Cell...really, it's the tone that changes a lot, you know what I mean?

Could Kikuchi have come up with something new for Goku's first transformation? Sure, but I think that music fit the moment perfectly. It conveys the mystery and the danger of that moment because the audience that doesn't know the story should be weary about what's happening. The first thing he does after transforming is yell at his son and tell him not to piss him off, if I recall.

Honestly, I can't really agree or disagree with you there, because while I DON'T think I'd be thinking "this is so scary" or "what the HFIL's happening to Goku?!?"...I can totally see why some other kids would. Some of us would catch the various hints about Super Saiyajin's being cold blooded killing machines and naturally assume Goku might be the same way, while others either would not notice, or not make anything of it (just a bunch of hyperbole from one VERY biased source in Vegeta), and just be going "Is Goku going Super Saiyajin today? Is he, is he...DARN IT!! Oh well, next episode, is he, Frieza's just killed his friend and....YES, YES YEEEEEEESSSS! HE'S FINALLY DONE IT, WHOOHOOOOO! I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT TIME" !!!

So that's something that's different for different people. But the fact still remains that FUNI composed unique music for it, and Kikuchi and his employers didn't (though I believe that's more the fault of his employers more than anything else, as I believe the composer draws a set of music for specific kinds of scenes without actually watching the show?).

The feeling I get from Faulconer is "this moment is badass". I certainly don't think his music fits the fight scenes better.

That's one moment though, and one very arguable one at that. And while I will actually say that there were times the music was innappropriately energetic, excited, or airy or what have you during fight scenes, it GENERALLY is pretty good about having fitting music once it gets past the first half of Season 3.

I gotta ask, you think the music changed for Yu Yu Hakusho? They added a handful of new cues over time, but it's basically the same music from beginning to end.

Well, it got stuck in a bit of a rut with the Dark Tournament, where only about three new pieces were composed and the same music was used over and over and over again even when we got to the final fights against Team Toguro, but after that, I believe my point stands. Right at the beginning of the new arc, the soundtrack, while still retaining the general mood, changes radically in style to the point that most of the old music is thrown out until about the middle of Yusuke's fight with Sensui. And while I would actually argue that as a mark AGAINST the composer and his supervisers (seriously, you shouldn't throw ALL the old music out), it's still better than what it would've been had it still kept using the old music from the previous two arcs again and again and again.

But again, the score is evolving to some extent. We went from having a more demonic feel in the previous two arcs, to a point where almost everything was GANGSTA in the Sensui arc, and then to a sort of mix of the two where the people involved finally realized that it wasn't a sin to use the music from the first two arcs alongside the newer music.

Most of the characters and Dragon Ball are fairly static. A few make some shifts, such as Piccolo and Vegeta, but Goku, Gohan, Tenshinhan, Muten Roshi, and Kuririn don't really change all that much. Yeah, Kuririn and Tenshinhan change from when we're first introduced to them, but they change fairly quickly.

Don't forget Trunks, Majin Buu, and Videl! And while Vegeta is one character, he often takes center focus in the events unfolding and generally pretty heavily drives the plot at many points (to the point where Toriyama himself basically describes him as a character designed to move the plot forward), so I would argue that he has a pretty big influence on the feel of the show.

That and, while the characters are the same, the situations and enemies that the Z Warriors face are much different, and the stakes are raised much higher (yeah, sure, they can revive all the people with the Dragon Balls...IF THEY WIN!!).

[ABED]

1 - Dragon Ball is a considerably funnier show, but there's plenty of serious characters, death and internal strife. Tenshinhan's first arc was all about his internal struggle. I don't know if the body count is neccessarily higher, but in Z, characters are resurrected so often and death ceases to have much meaning. It's still a good show, but I think DB is the better of the two. Regardless, they aren't so different that the music needs to change so drastically. Goku's still Goku, and there's still plenty of Toriyama's flare for comedy. Case in point, the Ginyu Special Corps. The cast is updated and some characters are phased out. That happens on a lot of shows, but there's typically a continuity of score.

2 - The music and the writing are trying to convey an emotion, and whether it illicits that reaction from the audience is a whole different issue entirely. "Badass music" doesn't go with the scene. Gohan looks scared of his own father in that moment. I'd much rather go with a song I know would fit, than new for the sake of new. The song that plays during Goku's transformation doesn't fit. The writing, the animation, and the music has to be a cohesive whole, and Faulconer's score conveys an entirely different mood.

3 - There are new pieces during the Sensui arc, but they didn't get rid of the old music. They still played plenty of the pieces they played since the beginning. Nothing was GANGSTA in that arc (thank god). The music was eclectic, sure, but it fit the tone of a story where the villain is a man with multiple personalities (spoilers to anyone who hasn't seen it).

4 - I didn't say everyone doesn't change. Vegeta and Piccolo are the most dynamic characters in the show, but the music does change during the Buu arc and from DB to Z. Videl's change isn't dynamic at all. All she suffers from is lack of knowledge. I don't see how "Stakes are higher" equates to "entirely different score!" Maybe some new pieces but not a new score, and it would happen over time.

[TheGmGoken]

And to that, I would counter and say that, while Shunsuke's music fit fairly well with Dragon Ball, and doesn't even sound that bad in Z (well, at least until say, the Buu saga, though I will admit to only seeing a few of it), the music just seems very uncreatively placed, it overuses silence to the point where silence lost much of it's punch as a meaningful musical technique (even in places where it otherwise would've been awesome, like here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQPYMomcoEs), it reuses music even in places where it REALLY should have new music (such as Goku's SSJ Transformations, or Vegeta's first transformation into a SSJ), and, I don't know whether it's just not my style of music or whatever, or whether it's compositions aren't as well done as the Team Faulconer version, or whether the rhythm of the songs isn't as catchy as Team Faulconer's stuff, but...I don't know, I just can't get invested in it even all of Kai and around 20-30 Episodes of Z with it...

Of course, I have seen ALL of Dragon Ball Z with Faulconer's stuff, so maybe I just haven't given the Japanese score enough time to sink in. But I remember in the dub, there was this distinct feeling that, like the cast of DBZ, the score was constantly evolving and changing, from a very airy, emotional feel in the Freeza Arc, to a more metal, techno feel in the Cell Arc, to a sort of mixed feel in the Buu Saga that added in orchestral elements while still somehow becoming even MORE techno...

The Japanese score? Well, it got new music in the Buu Saga, I know that for sure...but the feel of the music didn't REALLY change, like it did for FUNI Z and say, Yu Yu Hakusho. It still sounded more-or-less the same to me (though again, I haven't actually watched that much from that Saga, so this could be totally wrong).

And then I guess, if nothing else, Faulconer's score definitely goes along better with the fight scenes, with how much more frantic and mickey-moused it is.

Emotional in Freeza arc? Funny. To me Bruce music style didn't change till Buu Saga.

So that's something that's different for different people. But the fact still remains that FUNI composed unique music for it, and Kikuchi and his employers didn't (though I believe that's more the fault of his employers more than anything else, as I believe the composer draws a set of music for specific kinds of scenes without actually watching the show?).

Bruce having unique music for Dbz is a opinion not fact. To me nothing is unique about his music at all. I think you're using the wrong word.

[ABED]

I do think his music is unique, but it doesn't fit the show. DBZ and DB aren't radically different shows. Sure, there are changes, but they happened organically over time, so having a completely different score feels weird. The difference between DB and DBZ is not like the difference between Z and GT.

[Fionordequester]

1 - Dragon Ball is a considerably funnier show, but there's plenty of serious characters, death and internal strife.

Isn't most of that in the King Piccolo arc? Heck, VegettoEX even made it a point to say that that was where the turning point of the series was, and while that was indeed a serious time, that wasn't the norm for Dragon Ball.

Tenshinhan's first arc was all about his internal struggle.

Which was resolved in a matter of chapters.

I don't know if the body count is neccessarily higher, but in Z, characters are resurrected so often and death ceases to have much meaning. It's still a good show, but I think DB is the better of the two.

You have to remember that the deaths are only meaningless if our heroes actually manage to win.

Regardless, they aren't so different that the music needs to change so drastically.

I agree. However, my issue is that it doesn't change ENOUGH. It still retains that sort of quirky martial arts of Dragon Ball, to the point where I'd say much of the music is unfitting. I really wish I could bring this up quickly enough to bother posting a link to the video itself, but watch that episode where Goku is meeting Raditz for the first time. The scene is a fade-in from a commercial break, and I think it comes into a shot where we see the backs of Raditz's feet, and you can see Goku in the horizon. I remember listening to the music there and actually face palming at how innappropriately relaxed it was...

Again, I'm not saying the music is bad. But it shouldn't still be having vibraslaps and other sorts of cartoon noises even in serious confrontations and fight scenes.

Goku's still Goku, and there's still plenty of Toriyama's flare for comedy. Case in point, the Ginyu Special Corps. The cast is updated and some characters are phased out. That happens on a lot of shows, but there's typically a continuity of score.

Yes, there is still comedy, but it's not the central focus like it was for much of Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball was an Action Comedy while Dragon Ball Z was an Action series with many comedic moments.

2 - The music and the writing are trying to convey an emotion, and whether it illicits that reaction from the audience is a whole different issue entirely. "Badass music" doesn't go with the scene. Gohan looks scared of his own father in that moment.

Or awestruck. Or at least, that's how I interpreted his expression. Heck, he even says as he's flying away "wow...I'm...I'm so proud!!" IMMEDIATELY AFTER BEING SCREAMED AT. That doesn't say "fear" to me.

I'd much rather go with a song I know would fit, than new for the sake of new. The song that plays during Goku's transformation doesn't fit. The writing, the animation, and the music has to be a cohesive whole, and Faulconer's score conveys an entirely different mood.

I've seen the original writing and the animation, and I'm not seeing how both takes on the scene aren't valid. I'm not even saying you're wrong, just...I'm not wrong either. Not when it comes to this at any rate.

3 - There are new pieces during the Sensui arc, but they didn't get rid of the old music.

Actually they more-or-less did up until a certain point (well, not literally, but they may as well have), and I really think you should watch the arc again if you don't believe me. There are OCCASIONAL moments where an old piece will pop up, but off-hand, I can only remember one, and that was when Yusuke and Sensui were facing off for the 1st time in the city (I believe the piece was called "Battle Time"? The one that played for the first time when one of Yusuke's school officials punched him in the face for stealing a pen?).

They still played plenty of the pieces they played since the beginning. Nothing was GANGSTA in that arc (thank god). The music was eclectic, sure, but it fit the tone of a story where the villain is a man with multiple personalities (spoilers to anyone who hasn't seen it).

Hmm...huh, I guess you're kind of right there. When I thought of the Sensui arc, I thought of these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bSe_HV ... 1&index=37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEHgRVWX ... 1&index=39

...and didn't remember a lot of the rest, but after listening to it, it's certainly not GANGSTER per say. However, the point still stands that the songs changed radically in their instrumentation and in their tone. In fact, even you sort of say it by describing it as "eclecting" and fitting "the tone of a story where the villain is a man with multiple personalities, certainly different from the tone of the Dark Tournament, which I think we can agree had a much more...straightforward villain (I want to fight the strongest. You're strong, so fight me in a tournament, or I'll kill all your loved ones!). The music is much more ambient, the sound effects are much eerier (to the point where you can even hear heart beats in some of the songs), and, if I had to say so, darker and less epic than what it was originally. The vibe of the arc is different, and so is the music.

And that's what I mean. Sure it shares some similarities since, after all, the same man composed both sets of music, but you can't deny that it didn't change.

4 - I didn't say everyone doesn't change. Vegeta and Piccolo are the most dynamic characters in the show, but the music does change during the Buu arc and from DB to Z.

Again, I will admit that I didn't watch a whole lot of Buu Saga with Kikuchi. So could you please tell me how it changed? Besides having new pieces of music? Like how did the tone change? How did the instrumentation change? Were the songs in a radically different rhythm than they usually were? Etc., etc, things like that.

Videl's change isn't dynamic at all.

She goes from a domineering, dangerously rash, spoiled, borderline insufferable hothead who will actually BLACKMAIL PEOPLE INTO TRAINING HER to someone much sweeter after events such as potentially losing Gohan and getting beaten to a pulp by Spopovich (though I will admit, I'm going by the Anime on this one). Heck, after that, she's probably the most normal woman in the entire show.

All she suffers from is lack of knowledge.

Eh, personally I would say she's probably a bit spoiled as well, even if she is one tough compadre.

I don't see how "Stakes are higher" equates to "entirely different score!" Maybe some new pieces but not a new score, and it would happen over time.

It doesn't. But it does demand some change, and while the Kikuchi score did change somewhat with a few darker pieces of music, it still seemed to me like it was scored like an old-fashioned action-adventure cartoon, or...hardly even there at all (as was the case in Movie 9, where I swear there was more silence in the fight scenes than actual music).

[ABED]

If Sensui was not a straightforward villain, then Toguro the Younger wasn't either. His ultimate goal wasn't to kill people. His aim was to find someone strong enough to kill him. Sensui also wanted to die, but he did in fact want to exterminate humanity, so he's arguably a more straight-forward villain. By the way, the word is "eclectic". The Sensui arc is definitely the best written and most complex arc, but it's not completely different from the rest of the series. It was a natural growth of the story. There are new tracks, but they mesh with the rest of the show, which Faulconer's don't. I'm rewatching the Sensui arc right now, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, many of the tracks from the first episodes still play at this point of the series.

I don't wanna write a rebuttal point by point, so I'll just ask, what is your point? Are you arguing that Kikuchi should've added more tracks along the way, or that Faulconer's music was a better fit because he changed it up more often? If it's the latter, should he have also written the score for DB? If not, why would would it be a good idea to have two COMPLETELY different scores for the same series? Remember, the manga was always called Dragon Ball.

[Gaffer Tape]

the music just seems very uncreatively placed, it overuses silence to the point where silence lost much of it's punch as a meaningful musical technique (even in places where it otherwise would've been awesome, like here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQPYMomcoEs),

I'm not sure what you mean here considering there is music throughout that scene (and an awesome piece that adds quite a bit of punch, I might add). It is minimalistic, and that does indeed help create a tense mood.

(though I heard the death count was pretty high in the Piccolo Arc)

Lines like this make me think you really aren't that familiar with Dragon Ball, and, therefore, your assessments of it and comparisons to DBZ are hearsay.

[ABED]

(though I heard the death count was pretty high in the Piccolo Arc)

Lines like this make me think you really aren't that familiar with Dragon Ball, and, therefore, your assessments of it and comparisons to DBZ are hearsay.

Exactly. You claim Videl is dynamic, but not Tenshinhan because his changed happened in a couple chapters. Videl's happened in a couple of chapters as well.

[Fionordequester]

If Sensui was not a straightforward villain, then Toguro the Younger wasn't either. His ultimate goal wasn't to kill people. His aim was to find someone strong enough to kill him. Sensui also wanted to die, but he did in fact want to exterminate humanity, so he's arguably a more straight-forward villain.

Well yes, Younger Toguro has a complex backstory and a complex personality, but when it comes to his methods and goals, he still wasn't very complicated. Sensui was essentially a messed up schizophrenic who's mind split in two because he could not see the world in anything but black and white, and sought to exterminate the world by literally

Spoiler:

creating another personality every time something vile needed to be done

. And he accomplishes almost everything by manipulating a group of mostly impressionable or unstable youngsters, and forming a cult around himself.

Toguro, while interesting in that he's consumed by multiple insecurities, haunted by a guilty conscience, but still unable to let go of his fear of dieing...is decidedly less subtle when it comes to his methods. In fact, he basically just threatens people and punches things really, REALLY hard in order to get what he wants (heck he HIMSELF even lampshades this in one of his fights). Again, interesting personality, but his archetype is basically just "really big meathouse who tanks everything and pounds things into submission". Kind of like Broly if Broly was actually interesting.

By the way, the word is "eclectic".

Whoops

The Sensui arc is definitely the best written and most complex arc, but it's not completely different from the rest of the series. It was a natural growth of the story.

It's not totally different, but the feel of the saga is totally different. Whereas before it was basically just Yusuke and co. fighting evil and not wanting to die, the threat became much more psychological once the Sensui arc came along, with philisophical questions like "does humanity deserve to live" and "is Sensui right in what he's doing"? In the Dark Tournament, it was just a fight to the death with a whole carnival full of super powered baddies.

Really, the story very easily could've just followed the Dark Tournament formula, but it didn't, and I consider the first half of that saga to be one of the the best parts of Yu Yu Hakusho...more on that later.

There are new tracks, but they mesh with the rest of the show, which Faulconer's doesn't.

Personal opinion unfortunately. If you ever spot any points in this debate where I try to tell you you're wrong for liking Kikuchi and feeling differently, could you please tell me? I don't want to be a hypocrite.

I'm rewatching the Sensui arc right now, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, many of the tracks from the first episodes still play at this point of the series.

...Huh, that's odd. Personally, I don't remember a single old track playing until about when Yusuke confronts Sensui in his cave (aside from one of the other showdowns where "Battle Time" played). Could you please list off one or two other examples if you don't mind? I don't feel like rewatching the whole thing right now.

I don't wanna write a rebuttal point by point, so I'll just ask, what is your point? Are you arguing that Kikuchi should've added more tracks along the way, or that Faulconer's music was a better fit because he changed it up more often?

My point? Honestly I was just sharing my opinion. I think it started when some dude said "For a stereotyped version of DBZ, Team Faulconer is better, but for the actual show, Kikuchi is better". I think maybe I was just irritated about my dub being described as "stereotyped", and by extension, a bad dub. I'll admit it was definitely DIFFERENT from the actual show, but I don't think it was worse per say.

If it's the latter, should he have also written the score for DB?

No, not really, I think Dragon Ball is fine as it is, although I would've loved it if the three underpaid, passionate, talented people who ACTUALLY composed most of the DBZ score should've had a chance to do it, if they wanted to (Bruce Faulconer was kind of the Hercule of the FUNI dub don't you know. The other three musicians worked under him, but he refused to credit them after a certain point). I'm not sure their style would've fit the series if they didn't change it (although I think Mike Smith would've been a pretty good fit for the saga if he had a lot of the creative control).

If not, why would would it be a good idea to have two COMPLETELY different scores for the same series? Remember, the manga was always called Dragon Ball.

The same reason that it's a good idea to have multiple languages for the same series of course. Some people, like me, prefer Faulconer's music, therefore, even though it shouldn't have replaced the original score without the permission of Akira Toriyama, there's no reason why I shouldn't enjoy it.

I'm not sure what you mean here considering there is music throughout that scene (and an awesome piece that adds quite a bit of punch, I might add). It is minimalistic, and that does indeed help create a tense mood.

My point was that while that scene was well scored, and that the silence was well used, the silence lost some punch because there was too much silence throughout the show up to that point.

It would be like if Spirit vs. Spirit was used every single time someone transformed in the series. It would still sound good with Gohan transforming, but it would still lose a lot of punch because of its overuse. And that's what my argument was, that silence is overused in the Japanese version.

Exactly. You claim Videl is dynamic, but not Tenshinhan because his changed happened in a couple chapters. Videl's happened in a couple of chapters as well.

The point is conceded, as I will admit to being more familiar with the Anime than the manga, where we spent a lot less time with her. My point though is that there's more internal struggle in Dragon Ball Z.

Lines like this make me think you really aren't that familiar with Dragon Ball, and, therefore, your assessments of it and comparisons to DBZ are hearsay.

Well, I watched both Piccolo sagas once as a kid, have rewatched a lot of the fights such as Goku vs. Piccolo Daimao, Yamcha vs. Tien, Goku vs. Ma Junior, both of the Goku vs. Tien fights, have read the manga version of everything up to around when Roshi blew up the moon (and definitely DID NOT APPRECIATE Bulma's boobs being shown in full detail when Yamcha showed up !!), and I've listened to every single one of VegettoEX's "Manga Reviews of Awesomeness", so while I will admit to not being as familiar with Dragon Ball as I am with Dragon Ball Z, I think I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Nevertheless, I will be making a point to watch the FUNI dub of ALL of Dragon Ball. It's not going to be Japanese, because it goes against my beliefs to watch scenes such as Bulma's bare breasts being exposed in the shower).

[ABED]

So, he's complex, but he's not? You seem ambivalent about this. On one hand you claim that to be so, and then say he's just a brute. That's not actually true. He doesn't use force to get his way every time. He manipulates people, such as Sakyo. He played everything close to the chest. I'm sorry I can't name the tracks that played, I don't know the name of the tracks, but there are plenty of older tracks that are mixed in with the new ones, just like in Dragon Ball.

If you watched all 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, you'd know that the score added new tracks over time. Case in point, Upa's theme and Piccolo's theme were new in their respective arcs, plus Piccolo's theme has a number of variations.

I realize that much of this is opinion, but "Mondo cool" and "Krillin's in da house" isn't worse? Green voice actors aren't worse? I don't hate the dub. I think it has some good actors, but other than a few moments, the writing wasn't good.

The same reason that it's a good idea to have multiple languages for the same series of course.

You're equating different music with different languages?

The shot of Bulma you're referring to is there in the dub as well. Plus, Dragon Ball and DBZ has quite a bit of blood and violent images, but BOOBS bother you? I hate the puritanical aspects of our culture. This is so bass ackwards.

[Fionordequester]

So, he's complex, but he's not? You seem ambivalent about this. On one hand you claim that to be so, and then say he's just a brute. That's not actually true. He doesn't use force to get his way every time. He manipulates people, such as Sakyo. He played everything close to the chest.

What I mean is that his personality is complex, but what he does and what he represents isn't. And unless the FUNI dub of Yu Yu Hakusho had a really crazy translation hiccup, it seemed to me like Toguro and Sakyo's relationship was a mutually beneficial one. Toguro knew what Sakyo wanted, Sakyo knew what Toguro wanted, and they worked together to achieve their goals. That's not manipulation, that's a symbiotic relationship.

I'm sorry I can't name the tracks that played, I don't know the name of the tracks, but there are plenty of older tracks that are mixed in with the new ones, just like in Dragon Ball.

Well, what I meant was, I'd like it if you could name scenes where the old music played, like when Yusuke faced off against Sensui for the first time.

If you watched all 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, you'd know that the score added new tracks over time. Case in point, Upa's theme and Piccolo's theme were new in their respective arcs, plus Piccolo's theme has a number of variations.

Cool, that's wonderful. I just didn't notice the Z portion of the story being as well treated

I realize that much of this is opinion, but "Mondo cool" and "Krillin's in da house" isn't worse? Green voice actors aren't worse? I don't hate the dub. I think it has some good actors, but other than a few moments, the writing wasn't good.

But that's from ONE SEASON, and one that's widely regarded even by FUNI fans to be the worst one. There were also moments of genuinely good writing even better than that of the original, such as Goku's pre-fusion speech to Vegeta, as well as much of Vegeta's dialogue as Majin Vegeta. And if I'm falling under this trap as well, feel free to point this out, although I've watched at least two saga's worth of Kikuchi music as well as most of the movies.

You're equating different music with different languages?

Well, sure. The music obviously isn't as critical, but one's obviously going to prefer one soundtrack over another, just as one prefers one language and voice cast over the other.

The shot of Bulma you're referring to is there in the dub as well. Plus, Dragon Ball and DBZ has quite a bit of blood and violent images, but BOOBS bother you? I hate the puritanical aspects of our culture. This is so bass ackwards.

Boobs stir up my flesh, which is not something I want happening too often until I've at least met the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. If you don't think there's anything wrong with that, I'm fine with that. We all have our own beliefs. But I'd prefer not to watch such scenes.

Violence, on the other hand, is something I want to be prepared for, in case someone tries to break into my house or threaten me, so I don't want myself going into a nervous breakdown should I have to defend myself or those I love...and honestly, unless the kid happens to be like, 4 years old, I don't think much of even the uncensored DBZ is violent enough to seriously damage a child. I mean really, kids break their limbs and get gashes on themselves all the time just from running around, so I don't see how violence would harm them as long as it's not fricken Hellsing.

[TheGmGoken]

@Fionordequester

My point? Honestly I was just sharing my opinion. I think it started when some dude said "For a stereotyped version of DBZ, Team Faulconer is better, but for the actual show, Kikuchi is better". I think maybe I was just irritated about my dub being described as "stereotyped", and by extension, a bad dub. I'll admit it was definitely DIFFERENT from the actual show, but I don't think it was worse per say.

I think you misunderstood what I mean with stereotyped dbz meant. I never meant for my point to be across as funimation being the stereotyped dbz and by extension a bad dub. I was saying most people will say Dbz is just kamehameha, FINAL FLASH, and powering up 24/7. With or without filler and even by the manga people stereotyped Dbz by this. Which is weird cause with filler most of it is just talking, staredowns, or random filler scene. Without filler(Really the kai version which is LESS filler) it balance of each. Manga version has the least at of the three clearly since rarely do long stare down, and random scene. The talking well that's debatable. Point is for stereotyped dbz Bruce works for it.

my dub

Sorry but Funimation is not your dub. It's Funimation's.

[ABED]

No, Sakyo most certainly did not know Toguro's endgame, otherwise he wouldn't have bet his own life on the outcome of the tournament. Even the dub is quite clear about that.

Regardless of how many times a new cue was introduced in Z, it's still the same story. The shifts aren't so radical that a new score is neccessary. The Faulconer score is so different from Kikuchi (not a bad thing in and of itself) that playing those shows back to back feels akward. The consistency of the art and tone neccessitates the need for a similar score.

But that's from ONE SEASON, and one that's widely regarded even by FUNI fans to be the worst one

That wasn't one season, yeah it was the worst but there're plenty of terrible lines in every season. "Guess who joined the Super Saiyan club". "No, Piccolo grabbed the grabber" "More like burnt toast", the decoder ring line, "Cat loves food..." "This plan is half baked" "No, it's fully baked". There are moments of good writing, but most of them are when they adhere to the original.
And, the same could be said in reverse about the Buu arc. By that point, the scripts got closer to the original, and there was an occassional line that was arguably better, but overall, the writing wasn't as strong. Season 3 was the worst of the dub, but it wasn't an anomoly.

[ABED]

I didn't say there's nothing wrong with gratuitous nudity, but even when I see it, it's not something that gets my blood boiling.

A child seeing a cartoon, or even a real one for that matter, won't damage them, especially if the parents do their job properly. The answer isn't just "don't show them it." I simply find it weird that a natural body part that's on the screen for a second or two is worth getting upset at. Is it really worse than Freeza being cut in half or Dodoria sticking his hand through someone, or him murdering a child?

This is irrelevant to the dub anyways since that shot that you deplore (fast forward) is in the dub as well.

[TheWhiz]

The shot of Bulma you're referring to is there in the dub as well. Plus, Dragon Ball and DBZ has quite a bit of blood and violent images, but BOOBS bother you? I hate the puritanical aspects of our culture. This is so bass ackwards.

Boobs stir up my flesh, which is not something I want happening too often until I've at least met the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. If you don't think there's anything wrong with that, I'm fine with that. We all have our own beliefs. But I'd prefer not to watch such scenes.

Violence, on the other hand, is something I want to be prepared for, in case someone tries to break into my house or threaten me, so I don't want myself going into a nervous breakdown should I have to defend myself or those I love...and honestly, unless the kid happens to be like, 4 years old, I don't think much of even the uncensored DBZ is violent enough to seriously damage a child. I mean really, kids break their limbs and get gashes on themselves all the time just from running around, so I don't see how violence would harm them as long as it's not fricken Hellsing.

I'm just blown away by the fact that you are bothered by boobs in an anime. Oh well, everyones different I suppose.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

If you watched all 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, you'd know that the score added new tracks over time. Case in point, Upa's theme and Piccolo's theme were new in their respective arcs, plus Piccolo's theme has a number of variations.

Cool, that's wonderful. I just didn't notice the Z portion of the story being as well treated

DBZ got plenty of new tracks throughout its run as well. The beginning of DBZ introduced the themes for Gohan and the Saiyans, as well as variations of the new theme song, CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA, replacing those of Mystical Adventure and I'll Give You Romance, and whenever a new movie came out, it's score was later added to the show's (which also occured in DB), and in some cases, the leitmotif for the villain in a movie would serve well as that of the current villain in the series (Dr. Uiro's leitmotif from movie 2 for Freeza, and Metal Coola's from movie 6 for Cell, for example). The beginning of the Boo arc also brought forth some new tunes, such as new themes for Gohan (with an updated leitmotif introduced in movie 9), and variations of the opening and ending themes for that arc, WE GOTTA POWER and We Were Angels, replacing the HEAD-CHA-LA ones, the same way they replaced the DB theme variations.

[Fionordequester]

[I think you misunderstood what I mean with stereotyped dbz meant. I never meant for my point to be across as funimation being the stereotyped dbz and by extension a bad dub. I was saying most people will say Dbz is just kamehameha, FINAL FLASH, and powering up 24/7. With or without filler and even by the manga people stereotyped Dbz by this. Which is weird cause with filler most of it is just talking, staredowns, or random filler scene. Without filler(Really the kai version which is LESS filler) it balance of each. Manga version has the least at of the three clearly since rarely do long stare down, and random scene. The talking well that's debatable. Point is for stereotyped dbz Bruce works for it.

So you're saying Bruce Faulconer works better for people who don't look at more than the superficial qualities of DBZ? I would actually agree to that, I'm just hoping you're not lumping me in with them.

Sorry but Funimation is not your dub. It's Funimation's.

Well I didn't mean that literally, I just said that as a way to refer to FUNI. Sorry I wasn't clear enough .

And, the same could be said in reverse about the Buu arc. By that point, the scripts got closer to the original, and there was an occassional line that was arguably better, but overall, the writing wasn't as strong. Season 3 was the worst of the dub, but it wasn't an anomoly.

Actually it was an anomaly, at least as far as writing goes. All those lines you mentioned were from Season 4, and the writing was already getting better even then. And while there were a few groaners in Season 5...

Cell: He should feel lucky. He's the first to be touched by my perfect body...hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm!

Goku: You're not the first person to try to rule the universe with a sword of injustice.

...it wasn't NEARLY as omni-present as it was in Season 3, or to a lesser extent, Season 4. Really I consider Season 5 to be around when the writing finally started getting serious, and as someone who's watched all of Season 5 on the Orange Bricks, both subbed and dubbed, I can say that not all of what I liked better was them simply not taking liberties (for example, we don't have Goku saying "I want to be strong enough that no one can beat me...but Gohan, I want you to be even stronger than me!", or Semi-Perfect Cell calling Trunk's a "punk with his ass still blue"). Because really, it's not like the Japanese version didn't have groaner lines as well.

Regardless of how many times a new cue was introduced in Z, it's still the same story. The shifts aren't so radical that a new score is neccessary. The Faulconer score is so different from Kikuchi (not a bad thing in and of itself) that playing those shows back to back feels akward. The consistency of the art and tone neccessitates the need for a similar score.

That doesn't mean that the feel or tone of the show doesn't change now and again, hence why a shift in musical direction is not always innappropriate...although yeah, I don't think the Team Faulconer score needed to go as far as it did (even if I do prefer that general style of music to Shunsuke's).

I didn't say there's nothing wrong with gratuitous nudity, but even when I see it, it's not something that gets my blood boiling.

I guess you're stronger than I am then. I just know that for me, it affects me negatively.

No, Sakyo most certainly did not know Toguro's endgame, otherwise he wouldn't have bet his own life on the outcome of the tournament. Even the dub is quite clear about that.

But...Sakyo's kind of insane. Nobody even told him that he had to bet his life, but he up and did it anyways. And unless I'm misremembering something, I don't remember anything indicating Toguro knowing that Sakyo would do something so stupid. And Toguro wasn't going to just let himself be killed unless he knew the fighter in question was stronger than him, right? I'm just not really seeing how Sakyo laying down his life was instrumental to Toguro's plan, nor why Toguro would even have any need to manipulate him.

A child seeing a cartoon, or even a real one for that matter, won't damage them, especially if the parents do their job properly. The answer isn't just "don't show them it." I simply find it weird that a natural body part that's on the screen for a second or two is worth getting upset at. Is it really worse than Freeza being cut in half or Dodoria sticking his hand through someone, or him murdering a child?

Thinking about it more...I guess that would differ from person to person. For me, I don't like the nudity, but don't mind the violence. Anyways, thanks for the fair warning!

DBZ got plenty of new tracks throughout its run as well. The beginning of DBZ introduced the themes for Gohan and the Saiyans, as well as variations of the new theme song, CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA, replacing those of Mystical Adventure and I'll Give You Romance, and whenever a new movie came out, it's score was later added to the show's (which also occured in DB) and in some cases, the leitmotif for the villain in a movie would serve well as that of the current villain in the series (Dr. Uiro's leitmotif from movie 2 for Freeza, and Metal Coola's from movie 6 for Cell, for example). The beginning of the Boo arc also brought forth some new tunes, such as new updated themes for Gohan (the leitmotif of which carried over from movie 9), and variations of the opening and ending themes for that arc, WE GOTTA POWER and We Were Angels, replacing the HEAD-CHA-LA ones, the same way they replaced the DB theme variatios.

Well...maybe I need to watch more than two sagas then, and perhaps allow more time for the Japanese score to sink in. I just know that, SO FAR, it hasn't been impressing me, but...maybe it will over time, who knows? If what you said is true though, that is indeed good.

Actually, that makes me curious, just how many of the FUNI DBZ episodes have you guys seen?

[ABED]

Season 3 and 4 made up well over 100 episodes - hardly anomolies, and I already said that the scripts got better by season 5, but you'll notice that it's not an accident that they got closer to the original.

it's not like the Japanese version didn't have groaner lines as well.

Such as? Even if there are some, none of them jump out at me, and they aren't nearly as bad, nor as frequent as the dub's dialog.

What do you mean when you say musical direction? The Buu arc music is different, and Z has a number of different cues than DB. Case in point, the song that plays during the Freeza fight where Freeza grabs Goku from behind and Goku elbows Freeza in the stomach multiple times.

As for your last question, I've watched the series multiple times, including the dub. I'm well versed in both versions, which is why I highly prefer the original.

[Kaboom]

Can we try to keep this thread a little more tidy? I'm seeing too many looooong quotes and some double-posts here and there. Thanks!

[Ringworm128]

On the subject of the dub lines. Krillins "mondo cool" line reminds me of that bit in The Simpsons where Mr Burns says to Bart and Lisa something along the lines of "What's wrong? Don't think I'm hip? Don't think I have enough vodio doo?"