Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

You're just making an obscene amount of excuses that still don't justify this at all. There are plenty of opportunities to form a SSJ God in GT. You are still not answering my 3rd question. Again I care, Krillin wouldn't simply forget. I have to ask, what makes Shueisha correct? He clearly doesn't think too hard like I have proven? There wouldn't be so many questions if he had thought things out. Official information or not, he contradicts waaaaaay too much with his timeline. How do you know he doesn't have branching paths? Maybe he thinks the other movies are non canon and were merely for entertainment? You don't know.

[Kamiccolo9]

You're just making an obscene amount of excuses that still don't justify this at all. There are plenty of opportunities to form a SSJ God in GT. You are still not answering my 3rd question. Again I care, Krillin wouldn't simply forget. I have to ask, what makes Shueisha correct? He clearly doesn't think too hard like I have proven? There wouldn't be so many questions if he had thought things out. Official information or not, he contradicts waaaaaay too much with his timeline. How do you know he doesn't have branching paths? Maybe he thinks the other movies are non canon and were merely for entertainment? You don't know.

The Daizenshuu and Chozenshu are Toryama approved. Take that as you will, but I assume that that makes them valid. I don't see what the other movies have to do with this. It's one timeline; no branching paths are mentioned. And why do I have to explain why to accept the Daizenshuu? If you don't want to, that's your choice. No one has the power to make you, just like you don't have the power to to say numbers you don't agree with don't count.
Well, Krillin obviously did forget. Even before this timeline, the Garlic Jr. Arc of the anime made movie 1 fit into the anime timeline. So either call it a plothole, or assume something happened to make Krillin forget.
When could they have done it in GT without risking being wiped out?
Does anything say Saiyan's tails can't keep growing back? No. In fact, Goku's grew back numerous times. Gohan's grew back once in the anime as well.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Daizenshuu may be Toriyama approved but it does contradict things at times just like Shueisha's timeline. For instance, The Daizenshuu say Gohan was a SSJ2 in his fight with Dabura yet turn around and say he never went SSJ2 again after the Budokai. Blatant contradiction. No, what's obvious is that Shueisha wasn't thinking when he incorporated Movie 1 into his timeline. They could have done it when they were holding Omega Shenron down for starters. Goten also suggest to use Gotenks once so why doesn't he suggest SSJ God? The fact that Goku doesn't even say boy SSJ God would be useful right about now just screams bull shit. Do you enjoy ignoring previous posts? Gohan's tail grew back more than a year later. In Dragon Ball, Goku's tail never stays gone for more than a few months. Why would Gohan's tail suddenly grow back after such a long hiatus? Simple. It wouldn't.

[Kamiccolo9]

Daizenshuu may be Toriyama approved but it does contradict things at times just like Shueisha's timeline. For instance, The Daizenshuu say Gohan was a SSJ2 in his fight with Dabura yet turn around and say he never went SSJ2 again after the Budokai. Blatant contradiction. No, what's obvious is that Shueisha wasn't thinking when he incorporated Movie 1 into his timeline.

Or maybe they did, and left the others out on purpose. You can't really know, can you? Regardless, I'm done with this; this thread has already gotten way off track. If you want to discuss my movie 5 levels, then fine.

So, this subject has come up a lot in the in-universe forums lately, so I figured I'd make a list for Movie 5 Power Levels

I’m using the V-Jump and Weekly Jump numbers as a framework for this. I see no point in ignoring them, since they can work with a little effort.
1. Goku (Base, Beginning)-3,200,000-Goku is said by Roshi to have gotten stronger since he got back from Namek.
2. Goku (Base, Post Zenkai)-11,000,000-Zenkais are stated to have gotten almost unnoticeable, but this is a less than 4x zenkai, as opposed to his previous 33x zenkai. I’m assuming that they gradually decreased, and eventually faded away, instead of disappearing immediately.
3. Goku (Kaio-Ken x10) 110,000,000-Enough to have “possibly defeated my brother” I’m assuming that Cooler is referring to 100% Freeza.
4. Goku (Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha)220,000,000+some.-Twice as strong as the x10, plus whatever Goku managed to cram into the Kamehameha. Easily tanked by Cooler though.
5. Goku (Super Saiyan)-550,000,000-Strong enough to stomp Cooler, yet still have trouble with Cooler’s supernova.
6. Gohan-100,000-200,000-Same as the Freeza Arc. I don’t think he’s gotten much stronger yet. The lower end powers are for when he gets weakened by having his tail grabbed, and he tends to doubt himself, limiting his power.
7. Piccolo-1,500,000-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc. Piccolo tends to toy with enemies in this movie, as seen with him getting Neiz’ hopes up, and not immediately dispatching Salza.
8. Krillin-75,500-Slightly stronger than Freeza Arc.
9. Oolong-Totally irrelevant-Nuff Said.
10. Neiz-163,000-Tougher than any of the Ginyus, and strong enough to beat a weakened Gohan, but fodder for Piccolo.
11. Doore-180,000-The toughest of the group, but he’s pretty dumb, so Salza is the leader. Weakened Gohan by grabbing his tail.
12. Salza-170,000-The leader of Cooler’s group, said to be a genius, and has power ki attacks, such as his “ki blade,” which I see as similar to the Kienzan in effect. Manages to surprise Piccolo with that, but is otherwise toyed with by Piccolo, and Piccolo, even though he is severely wounded, takes out Salza easily in the end.
13. Cooler-100,000,000.-Slightly weaker than Freeza’s max, and also slightly weaker than Kaio-Ken x10 Goku. Can easily dispatch Piccolo.
14. Cooler (Final Form)-470,000,000- V-Jump number, makes him far superior to even Kaio-Ken x20 Goku, and he is easily able to tank his Kamehameha. Manages to take some hits from SSJ Goku, and is capable of briefly overpowering him with his Supernova technique.
15. Cooler’s Supernova-600,000,000-Nice even number that’s stronger than SSJ Goku.
16. SSJ Goku’s Kamehameha-600,000,000+ - anything above the Supernova works.

[Draken]

There was Pan, Goku, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, they coulda just IT'd to Bra and then IT'd back. Baby was waiting while they were "whispering" anyways.

[Kamiccolo9]

There was Pan, Goku, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, they coulda just IT'd to Bra and then IT'd back. Baby was waiting while they were "whispering" anyways.

Was this when Goku was SSJ4, powering up to fight Golden Oozaru Baby? I would say that Goku was focused on what was going on, and made due with what he had, rather than taking a chance looking for Bra. It's a weak excuse, admittedly, but it works. Also, maybe Goku couldn't concentrate on the technique? Sort of like he did when Pure Buu blew up the Earth? I imagine it be difficult to find a weak ki like Bra's, when there was an enormous one practically right next to him.

[Draken]

There was Pan, Goku, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, they coulda just IT'd to Bra and then IT'd back. Baby was waiting while they were "whispering" anyways.

Was this when Goku was SSJ4, powering up to fight Golden Oozaru Baby? I would say that Goku was focused on what was going on, and made due with what he had, rather than taking a chance looking for Bra. It's a weak excuse, admittedly, but it works. Also, maybe Goku couldn't concentrate on the technique? Sort of like he did when Pure Buu blew up the Earth? I imagine it be difficult to find a weak ki like Bra's, when there was an enormous one practically right next to him.

I'd think that he would be at least a little familiar with Bra. The risk was that SSJ4 wouldn't be enough. He was taking power from 3 SSJ's and a little girl, who combined had a power weaker than his base form.

[Kamiccolo9]

There was Pan, Goku, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, they coulda just IT'd to Bra and then IT'd back. Baby was waiting while they were "whispering" anyways.

Was this when Goku was SSJ4, powering up to fight Golden Oozaru Baby? I would say that Goku was focused on what was going on, and made due with what he had, rather than taking a chance looking for Bra. It's a weak excuse, admittedly, but it works. Also, maybe Goku couldn't concentrate on the technique? Sort of like he did when Pure Buu blew up the Earth? I imagine it be difficult to find a weak ki like Bra's, when there was an enormous one practically right next to him.

I'd think that he would be at least a little familiar with Bra. The risk was that SSJ4 wouldn't be enough. He was taking power from 3 SSJ's and a little girl, who combined had a power weaker than his base form.

Well, any excuse made is gonna be weak due to this predating SSJG, so PIS is really the best thing to go with. It's not like characters are immune to this in the manga either

[Draken]

Or we can just call GT a grand side story and not try to mess with the original manga's timeline and AT specifically stating he tried to fit BoG as if the manga had continued

[Kamiccolo9]

Or we can just call GT a grand side story and not try to mess with the original manga's timeline and AT specifically stating he tried to fit BoG as if the manga had continued

Well, the timeline is for the anime, not the manga. Since the anime contradicts itself all the time, I see no problem with a few more that can be explained away if you work at it. I keep my GT far, far, far away from the manga

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No, what's obvious is that Shueisha wasn't thinking when he incorporated Movie 1 into his timeline.

Just one thing that has been irking me in multiple threads here. Shueisha is not an individual person, let alone a "he". Shueisha is a major publisher in Japan, including magazines like Weekly Shōnen Jump, and are the main rights holders to the Dragon Ball franchise.

[Mjb1985]

I go back and forth on how strong I view Cooler's Armored Squadron. On one hand I feel like Goku and Piccolo are fighting at similar levels against them and then I question if Goku got a Zenkai or just decided to power up against Salza later.

TOEI movies are always difficult to get a read on. I don't get the feeling that Gohan and Kuririn are at their " can be a help against Freeza " levels though. They feel really weak to me during this movie.

[Kamiccolo9]

My Minimalist Power Levels

Trunks Arc
1. Goku (Base)-3,200,000-I only have him getting a little bit stronger than he was in the Freeza Arc. I think he spent more time learning Instant Transmission and learning how to transform at will then he did with actual training. Besides, he wouldn’t have anyone to train with.
2. Goku (SSJ)-160,000,000-Slightly stronger than his Freeza Arc max.
3. Trunks (Base)-3,000,000-Same as Freeza Arc Goku. Gohan stated that his ki was similar to his father’s, but didn’t specify if that meant his Super Saiyan ki was similar, or that his power was similar. I’m assuming he meant both.
4. Trunks (SSJ)-1,500,000-See above.
5. Piccolo-2,400,000-Piccolo has been shown making huge gains previously, and is said to have kept up his training. He also seems willing to take on Vegeta, implying that he’s in a similar realm of power.
6. Vegeta (Base)-2,600,000-Slightly stronger than he was in the Freeza Arc. Vegeta trains alone, and hasn’t gotten his gravity chamber yet, so he doesn’t make a very large gain.
7. Gohan-200,000. He hasn’t been training, so I don’t have him getting any stronger.
8. Krillin-75,500-I’m assuming he’s trained a little bit, but he’s approaching his limits, so the results are small.
9. Tenshinhan-20,500-I have him getting 10x stronger on Kaio’s from his Saiyan Arc 1,830, plus a little extra. He trains a lot, but it’s mostly on his own, since Chiaotzu is an inferior sparring partner.
10. Yamcha-8,000-I have him getting a little over 5x stronger than his Saiyan Arc level of 1,480.
11. Chiaotzu-6,500-I have him getting 10x stronger due to his training at Kaio’s, plus a little extra from regular training.
12. Freeza (Mecha, Suppressed)-90,000,000. Freeza said that he’s gotten stronger, but Gohan senses his power, and says it’s nothing compared to what he felt on Namek. This, to me, indicates that Freeza was suppressed. Since we never see him power up, I’m assuming that he stays suppressed throughout his trip on Earth.
13. Freeza (Mecha, Full Power)-140,000,000-Freeza’s never seen max. He thinks that he can beat Goku, but he can’t sense ki, so he doesn’t know what he is talking about. In Trunks’ timeline, Goku is said to have defeated both Freeza and King Cold, so I’m assuming that Freeza’s max is still weaker than Goku.
14. King Cold-80,000,000-Said to be almost as strong as Freeza.

[Kamiccolo9]

Minimalist Power Levels Round 2
Android Arc
1. Goku (Base)-3,700,000-I don’t have Goku making large gains in the 3 years, because I think he spent more effort training Gohan and holding back while sparring with Piccolo. Due to this, his power didn’t rise all that much.
2. Goku (SSJ)-185,000,000-50x base.
3. Goku (SSJ, Sick)-150,000,000-50,000,000-Goku starts out fighting 19 weakened, and he gradually gets weaker throughout the fight, especially after firing his Kamehameha.
4. Gohan-800,000, -1,000,000-Gohan’s improved a lot, but he’s not a big deal. Yet.
5. Piccolo-140,000,000-Piccolo has typically made huge gains through training, and this time he has a Super Saiyan for a sparring partner. I also think that during the 3 years he started drawing on dormant power unlocked by his fusion with Nail. He’s implied to be on the same level as the SSJ’s, so I put him as strong as Freeza was in the last Arc.
6. Vegeta (Base)-4,000,000-Has started his gravity training, which is very effective now, yet it will lose effectiveness later. He is said to be slightly stronger than Goku.
7. Vegeta (SSJ)-200,000,000-50x base.
8. Krillin-80,000-3 years of training on his own have got him here. I may make him a bit stronger later, but I’m thinking that this may be where he stops.
9. Tenshinhan-30,000-He’s still doing inefficient training with an ineffective sparring partner that’s latched onto him, so he hasn’t progressed that much.
10. Yamcha-12,000-Gero mistook him for Goku, and the last data that he had on Goku was from the Saiyan Arc, so I have Yamcha somewhat stronger than that.
11. Chiaotzu-8,000-Poor Chiaotzu’s not getting much stronger.
12. Trunks (Base) 3,200,000-He’s a little stronger now. But he had only 8 months to train, and no one to spar with. So no big gains.
13. Trunks (SSJ)- 160,000,000-50x base.
14. Android 19 (Initial)-70,000,000-Far weaker than the Super Saiyans, but being an android, he’s got the durability to take hits from one, at least for a short time.
15. Android 19 (Post Absorbing Kamehameha)-100,000,000-Easily enough to dominate the weakened Goku. Crushed by Vegeta.
16. Android 20/Dr. Gero (Initial)-75,000,000-Slightly stronger than 19.
17. Android 20/Dr Gero (Post absorbing some of Piccolo’s strength and Vegeta’s attack)-110,000,000-Piccolo stomps him easily, even after absorption.
18. Android 18-220,000,000-Stronger than Vegeta, but I see no point in Toryama constantly bringing up her infinite stamina if she could have easily stomped Vegeta without it. So Vegeta can put up a fight, but when 18 gets serious, and Vegeta’s stamina starts running low, she easily defeats him.
19. Android 17-230,000,000-Stonger than 18, but still in the same realm of power.

[Kamiccolo9]

Minimalist Power Levels Round 3
Cell Arc
Note: I’m saving Goku and Gohan post ROSAT for the next list. This covers from the end of the last list to Cell vs. SSJ Grade III Trunks.
Multipliers
SSJ-50x base
SSJ Grade II-65x base
SSJ Grade III-85x base-While the physical power of Grade 3 may be equal or even superior to SSJ2, the total lack of ki attacks used by Trunks implies to me that the actual ki output isn’t that high.
1. Goku, Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu all stay the same as they were in the last arc.
2. Piccolo (Post fusion with Kami)-240,000,000-Slightly stronger than 17, but not enough to easily defeat him.
3. Imperfect Cell (Initial)-210,000,000-Implied to be weaker than the Androids, but stronger than Vegeta. No match for Piccolo yet.
4. Imperfect Cell (Humans absorbed)-280,000,000-Much stronger from absorbing countless Earthlings. Tanks Piccolo’s Light Grenade due to Piccolo being exhausted from his fight with 17, and also due to his android durability.
5. Android 16-280,000,000-Equal to Cell.
6. Semi-Perfect Cell (Initial)-400,000,000 - I view Cell’s transformations as adding his power to the Android’s, yet he wasn’t at full power the whole time. So I’m putting him here.
7. Vegeta (Base)-9,000,000-ROSAT training has made him much stronger.
8. Vegeta (SSJ)- 450,000,000-50x base.
9. Vegeta (SSJ Grade II)-585,000,000-65x base.
10. Semi-Perfect Cell (Full Power)-510,000,000-Imperfect Cell’s power plus Android 17’s.
11. Trunks (Base)-8,500,000-Much stronger due to ROSAT training. Slightly weaker than Vegeta.
12. Trunks (SSJ)-425,000,000-50x base.
13. Trunks (SSJ Grade II)-525,500,000-65x base.
14. Perfect Cell (Initial)-650,000,000-He is heavily suppressed. His full power is Semi Perfect Cell + Android 18, and can access a fair amount of extra power as well by mimicking the Grade II and Grade III forms.
15. Trunks (SSJ Grade 3)-680,000,000-80x base.

And Round 4
Cell Games Arc
1. The Earthlings are all the same as the previous two arcs.
2. Goku (Base)-12,500,000-Much stronger due to ROSAT training, sparring with Gohan, and mastering the Super Saiyan form.
3. Goku (SSJ)-625,000,000-50x base. I’m assuming that the other characters are capable of getting a glimpse into his true power, just like Krillin was able to do with Perfect Cell and Trunks.
4. Perfect Cell (Initial)-650,000,000-Same as before.
5. Gohan (Base)-12,800,000-Stronger than Goku. Huge gains from the ROSAT and mastering the Super Saiyan form.
6. Gohan (SSJ)-640,000,000-50x base.
7. Cell Jr.-580,000,000-Only Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo are able to stand up to them.
8. Vegeta (Base)-12,000,000-Stronger after training in the ROSAT.
9. Vegeta (SSJ)-600,000,000-While weaker than Perfect Cell, Vegeta thinks he may have a chance against him. Possibly with an amped up ki attack.
10. Trunks (Base)-11,500,000-Stronger after ROSAT training.
11. Trunks (SSJ)-575,000,000-50x base. For both Vegeta and Trunks, I’m assuming that they have begun mastering the Super Saiyan state, and this prevents them from utilizing the SSJ Grades.
12. Piccolo-550,000,000-Typical huge Piccolo training gains. He is said to have improved dramatically, just not enough to defeat Cell. From this point on, he will be behind the Super Saiyans.
13. Gohan-(SSJ2)-1,280,000,000-2x SSJ. 100x Base.
14. Gohan (SSJ2, Enraged)-1,500,000,000-Typical Gohan rage boost.
15. Perfect Cell (Full Power)-730,000,000-Semi Perfect Cell+Android 18’s power.
16. Perfect Cell (Power Weighted)-1,095,000,000-1.5x Full Power Perfect Cell.
17. Super Perfect Cell-1,460,000,000-2x Full Power Perfect Cell. Mimics SSJ2 State.

[RandomGuy96]

Funny how Cell's "durability" completely fails him when he fights someone equal to or greater than him. It only ever has an effect on people weaker than him.

That just kind of sounds like a lame way to excuse the massive gaps shown here. Like Cell not even budging when punched right in the face. And come on, the gap between 17/Piccolo and Cell being smaller than the one between Goku and Freeza...? I don't remember Goku defeating Freeza with one casual punch.

[Kamiccolo9]

Funny how Cell's "durability" completely fails him when he fights someone equal to or greater than him. It only ever has an effect on people weaker than him.

Well, whenever he fights someone stronger than he is, they are usually much stronger. Such as with SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta, or SSJ2 Gohan. He took hits from SSJ Grade 3 Trunks just fine. And by this I mean physical durability. As I see it, his exoskeleton is good at dispersing physical impacts. Ki attacks seem to be far more effective against him. Piccolo's Light Grenade, however, was fired from a beaten up Piccolo, and Cell had time to gather ki to defend against it as well.

I don't think that Goku was instantly restored to full power when he transformed. As I see it, the Daizenshuu numbers gave max battle powers, not what was actually shown.

[Draken]

I can't fathom how you have Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo all so close to Goku and Gohan. They were implied to be much above anything the rest of the cast had.

[Kamiccolo9]

I can't fathom how you have Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo all so close to Goku and Gohan. They were implied to be much above anything the rest of the cast had.

Well, this isn't really what I think I was given a frame to work with, and I'm trying to make it work. My own levels are somewhat higher than this, but I was given the idea for a low level list, so I though I'd try it out.

I don't really like coming up with my own numbers, since that leads to a lot of speculation about a topic I don't really care about. I like being given a framework for this topic, and trying to work that in. It's more like a puzzle, and less like guesswork to me that way I did the same thing with my movie 5 list, where I based it off the numbers given in V and Weekly Jump.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have 1 problem with this list. Why is SSJG3 Trunks stronger than FPSSJ Goku? Cell was toying with Trunks the whole time and revealed that had more power against FPSSJ Goku.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2
Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s max power from a distance.
Vegeta (to self): “Damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…”

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “So this is his true power?...”
Trunks: “Amazing…Goku really is absolutely amazing…”

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

First, Half of Goku's power already exceeds Vegeta's SSJG2 self. Second, Krillin makes it clear that Goku is the strongest Ki he has felt. Third even if you don't take Krillin seriously there, there is still math involved. If Goku at half power exceeds Vegeta, his full power would be more than twice as strong as SSJG2 Vegeta. So according to your levels FPSSJ Goku's power level should be greater than 1,170,000,000.