The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[hleV]

Goku is not "Ultimate", so Gokhan should be able to go SS, just that the result would not necessarily be 50x.

[TheMightyOzaru]

16 because everyone knows only Goku can accomplish things in GT.

Of course.... it is after all Dragon Ball: Goku Time.

I have Ultimate Gokhan hitting about 46,200,000,000,000 upon fusing with Goku and that's as strong as he can get. I don't think he can go SSJ.

Based on this quote; Gohkan should be able to transform into a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Elder Kaioshin understood the Potara, and also understood the ceremony he performed on Gohan. He would have said something if transforming was an impossibility or of no benefit.

Why would Goku know what would happen upon fusing? Furthermore Gokhan can go SSJ but it would be weaker than his Ultimate state.

[Vertical]

I have Ultimate Gokhan hitting about 46,200,000,000,000 upon fusing with Goku and that's as strong as he can get. I don't think he can go SSJ.

Based on this quote; Gohkan should be able to transform into a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Elder Kaioshin understood the Potara, and also understood the ceremony he performed on Gohan. He would have said something if transforming was an impossibility or of no benefit.

Why would Goku know what would happen upon fusing? Furthermore Gokhan can go SSJ but it would be weaker than his Ultimate state.

Goku's understanding was not the point of my post; Elder Kaioshin's was.

If turning SSJ after fusing with Ultimate Gohan was impossible, Elder Kaioshin would have said so when Goku asked. If transforming was of no benefit then Elder Kaioshin would have said so when Goku asked. This suggests that Gohkan would not be Ultimate Gohkan upon birth and would be able to transform, with said transformation providing at least some sort of benefit in terms of strength.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why would Elder Kaioshin know how SSJ works with Ultimate?

[Draken]

Why would Elder Kaioshin know how SSJ works with Ultimate?

Well he knows his own damn ultimate ritual, and he by now should have an understanding of SSJ when he knows that transformations aren't the "right" way of doing things. I'm pretty sure he would know if they could stack or not.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why would Elder Kaioshin know how SSJ works with Ultimate?

Well he knows his own damn ultimate ritual, and he by now should have an understanding of SSJ when he knows that transformations aren't the "right" way of doing things. I'm pretty sure he would know if they could stack or not.

No, Elder Kai has very little understanding of the SSJ. Referring to is as "That Super Saiyan Thingamajig" implies he knows little to nothing about it.

[rereboy]

Elder Kaioshin was never shown to be wrong about anything and he knew about pretty much everything. In other words, he knows his stuff.

[dbzfan7]

Elder Kaioshin was never shown to be wrong about anything and he knew about pretty much everything. In other words, he knows his stuff.

You may be right. I don't recall the Elder Kaioshin being wrong about anything.

[TheMightyOzaru]

His statement still implies he knows little about the SSJ. He is just really wise being old and all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Son Goku (Super Saiyan Grade 3) vs Son Goku (Super Saiyan Full Power)
Kamehameha clash. Both at equal levels in base. Who wins the clash?

[Kaboom]

If they're equal at base, then Grade 3 Goku's going to win. Full-Power Super Saiyan is the same as Super Saiyan 1, with the same "multiplier," while Grade 3 is beyond Super Saiyan with a much larger one. So Grade 3 Goku's got a lot more raw power to put in to the attack.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

I gotta go with Grade 3 aswell for the reasons Kaboom listed above.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If they're equal at base, then Grade 3 Goku's going to win. Full-Power Super Saiyan is the same as Super Saiyan 1, with the same "multiplier," while Grade 3 is beyond Super Saiyan with a much larger one. So Grade 3 Goku's got a lot more raw power to put in to the attack.

Well, SSG3 uses a lot of power, while SSFP uses very small amounts. Wouldn't that mean that SSG3 Goku can put less power in his Kamehameha, while SSFP Goku can put more power?

[Kamiccolo9]

Son Goku (Super Saiyan Grade 3) vs Son Goku (Super Saiyan Full Power)
Kamehameha clash. Both at equal levels in base. Who wins the clash?

Personally, I think that Grade 3 has a negative impact on ki output. Since so much ki is used to pump up the muscles, there's not really much left for actual ki attacks. If you look at the Trunks vs Cell fight, Trunks never once uses a ki attack, which leads me to believe that he either can't, or that his ki attacks would be pretty limited. So FPSSJ Goku takes this, I think.

[MDSTSSJ]

Then what would be the difference in power between them with the same base power? I ask because the large muscles of the SSJ Grade 3 is a disadvantage.

[Kamiccolo9]

Then what would be the difference in power between them with the same base power? I ask because the large muscles of the SSJ Grade 3 is a disadvantage.

I think that while the SSJ Grade 3 may "show" a lot more power than a FPSSJ, it wouldn't be able to use it as effectively. So, assuming they start from the same base:
Base Goku- 1
FPSSJ- 50
SSJ Grade 3- 85
But since Grade 3 uses the ki to pump up muscles, and also to maintain the form, it can't be used to enhance attacks, so the end result would be something like this:
FPSSJ Kamehameha-100
FPSSJ-87

I'm basing this off of Goku being able to blow off the top half of Cell with a Kamehameha, which indicates some serious amplification, while Trunks didn't even try to use a ki attack, which indicates to me that he either couldn't, or there wouldn't have been any point in doing so.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think the reason Trunks didn't use any ki attacks is because he didn't get the chance to, since the fight was very short.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think the reason Trunks didn't use any ki attacks is because he didn't get the chance to, since the fight was very short.

Maybe, but would it have really been that hard to shoot off one ki blast at Cell? Practically every other fight in Z has some kind of energy attack, why not this one? Especially since Cell said that Trunks was stronger than he was; wouldn't it have made sense for Trunks to use that attack he used against Imperfect Cell in the future? Or some other explosive wave type attack? PIS is always an option, of course, but I prefer to think that there was a reason behind him not using ki attacks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The fight was very short in the manga. It wasn't even a fight in the end, since all we saw was Trunks trying to punch Cell for a few pages, until he realizes the problem & that he didn't stand a chance. I doubt that he couldn't fire ki blasts at all.

[Kamiccolo9]

The fight was very short in the manga. It wasn't even a fight in the end, since all we saw was Trunks trying to punch Cell for a few pages, until he realizes the problem & that he didn't stand a chance. I doubt that he couldn't fire ki blasts at all.

I think he could fire them, but I don't think he could use much energy to amplify them, meaning they would have been no more effective than the punches, and that they would have also been a more severe drain on the already unstable form. As for a sustained, ki-intensive blast like the Kamehameha, I can see it requiring so much energy that Grade 3 Goku would drop out of the form. The Instant Kamehameha that Goku used against Cell was a huge drain on his power, and that was in the FPSSJ state; I don't think Grade 3 could handle it.