Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

Again where?

You know the line in the manga where the Old Kaioshin says that Pure Buu is the "original, most troublesome one?" It's the same line, except that in the anime he adds powerful on the end of it. The Narrator says it at the end of the episode where Goku goes SSJ3 in the Pure Buu fight, I believe.

The Narrator doesn't and I would like to see Kaioshin saying it.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again where?

You know the line in the manga where the Old Kaioshin says that Pure Buu is the "original, most troublesome one?" It's the same line, except that in the anime he adds powerful on the end of it. The Narrator says it at the end of the episode where Goku goes SSJ3 in the Pure Buu fight, I believe.

The Narrator doesn't and I would like to see Kaioshin saying it.

The Old Kaioshin statement is in episode 277 after Kibitoshin finishes telling the origins of Buu. The same conversation happens in the manga, except the Old Kaioshin adds the words "most powerful" onto his description of Buu.
The Narrator statement happens either at the end of episode 279, or the beginning of 280; I forget which.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Again show me. Telling me what episode it's in doesn't do me any good since I don't know where to find Japanese episodes.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again show me. Telling me what episode it's in doesn't do me any good since I don't know where to find Japanese episodes.

Do you have any of the English releases? The subs on the Orange Bricks say the same thing. I imagine the Dragonbox does as well.

[TheMightyOzaru]

No I have nothing. I just watch the episodes online. I would love to get the Dragon Boxes someday though. I think it would just be best if you watched it right now and told me the exact lines. I have no reason to believe your lying.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ok,
first, the Goku quote:

Majin Buu, you are one dense guy, but your power, speed, and powers of recovery are all incredible! You're on a whole different level from all the Boos up to now! You're ridiculously strong!

Episode 279.
Note that this is while Goku is fighting him as a SSJ2. He hasn't gone all out yet. And in the anime, Goku has fought all forms of Super Buu (except for the Piccolo-Buu.)

Kibitoshin

But can you beat Buu like that? He has gone back to the original, most difficult, powerful Majin Boo!

This is right after Vegeta crushes the Potara. I was wrong about the Old Kaioshin line earlier, and was thinking about this one.
The rest of my disk 4 of season 9 is scratched up, so I can't find the Narrator quote. I'm sure someone else here can point you to it though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I honestly don't see why the anime has to stray so far from the original manga. Hopefully Kai doesn't screw it up. Oh well I ignore anything not suggested in the manga anyway so it doesn't bother me.

[RandomGuy96]

Ignoring the manga is a must when talking about GT, a direct continuation of the anime.

Anyway, did anyone see any actual errors with my reasoning that Goku x Vegeta is still inferior to the high tier GT guys?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ignoring the manga is a must when talking about GT, a direct continuation of the anime.

Anyway, did anyone see any actual errors with my reasoning that Goku x Vegeta is still inferior to the high tier GT guys?

Eh I just ignore the power scaling, that's what I should have said. GT and the anime clearly run on their own rules when it comes to Afterlife and such. I honestly just run with that to avoid making an entirely separate BP list. The anime also runs on TIS so it can be disregarded in favor of the manga's power scaling. I find it to be a bit outlandish that Vegetto running the A x B formula can't solo all of GT with just his SSJ form to be honest. It can work if your willing to push Goku to an extreme power level like your attempting to do I guess though.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not attempting to do anything, I'm just listing a conservative estimate of his power level based on his feats, the statements, and the guidebooks. Black Star base Goku is many times stronger than Buuhan, and was implied to get waaaaaaaayy stronger in that very saga, and Baby Saga base Goku is even stronger than that, since he schools Ultimate Gohan (x50) in base. And Gohan explicitly didn't slack off. I'm also being pretty conservative with where I have Ultimate Gohan in the first place.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I just assume Gohan DID get stronger but for some reason can't use his Ultimate state anymore. As for Goku, I just use the RSSJ theory since he is clearly capable of using RSSJ in the Paikuhan arc. Nothing get's incredibly outlandish this way.

[RandomGuy96]

That's your opinion, this is mine. This was mostly to shoot down the notion that manga Vegetto > anime Vegetto (and everyone in GT) because Goku x Vegeta came from an manga based guidebook. That one's used a lot by Vegetto fanboys. I just demonstrated that he can be Goku x Vegeta and still be trash compared to the high tier GT guys, going by official material and feats in the show.

Anyway, if you don't take the Goku x Vegeta thing seriously, then I think that base GT Goku (Black Star and beyond) would one-shot Super Vegetto, anime or manga, mostly because he's way stronger than a guy who's on a whole different level than Buuhan. If Vegetto used SS3, Goku would have to use kaio-ken to beat him. Or just go Super Saiyan and kill him with a look.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What has anyone in GT done that makes you think they have high end feats? Getting cut by glass isn't a high end feat .

[RandomGuy96]

Power scaling feats, I mean. Otherwise King Piccolo would kick the shit out of SS4 Goku. Hmmm, maybe it actually DIVIDES his base, instead of multiplying it...?

Then again I remember a few high end things, like Goku lifting a city and base Goku destroying a galaxy/dimension (can't remember) with a Kamehameha.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Power scaling isn't a feat.

[RandomGuy96]

I mean, like, he has the feat of defeating character X, who is 100 times stronger than character Y, therefore he's this strong. That's how Dragon Ball logic works.

Without that, Kid Buu really would be the most powerful being in DBZ. I think that his casual one handed blast that destroyed Earth was calced at like dwarf star level.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I know how DBZ works but powerscaling has nothing to do with feats. Claiming SSJ4 Goku has greater feats is not accurate statement. Pure Buu's attack only destroyed the Earth.... how is it dwarf star level? Freeza blew up Planet Vegeta, which is 10 times as dense as Earth, with his finger.

[RandomGuy96]

He has greater feats based on power scaling. Defeating Ultimate Gohan x 50 just in base counts as a feat by DBZ logic.

This guy calced Kid Buu's casual one handed blast at 50 times a Jupiter buster on the low end: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15373

I don't think anyone in the DBZ manga did anything as impressive as that...

[TheMightyOzaru]

Jupiter isn't dense at all.... Destroying a planet 10x as dense as Earth should be more impressive and Freeza did that with his finger. Goku might not be that much stronger than Gohan though. base Goku beating a SSJ Gohan after training with Uub isn't an impressive feat as far as I'm concerned. You can think Goku is more than 50x Ultimate Gohan if you want, that's fine, but your assuming that Gohan can put SSJ on top of his Ultimate form.

[Mjb1985]

MO I wanted to try to do a Dragonball list with no scouter logic, are you interested in trying one?