Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[PerfectFreeza]

None of them do.They usually are equals to the Z-Fighers of the episodes they are mimicking.
The Daizenshuu says it takes place during the 10 day wait, which is 100% wrong and I don't think I need to explain why.
In universe reason?Well, I have one.Piccolo isn't as strong as he was against 20 and he is fused, so his power up doesn't surpass the SSJs, but only makes him equal to his Pre-reunion counterpart.
Usually, if the fighters is significantly stronger, then their clothes remain intact.Chiaotzu might have damaged Nappa a bit, same with Tenshinhan, but more.18 is a cyborg.They have higher ''defense''.
Cell didn't have any scratches on him.At least I don't see them.Even if he had any, it could be from being crushed in the ground, kind of like Krillin getting wounded by a rock in the Freeza saga.
EDIT:Kami was removed from the existence, due to the plot.In universe explanation:Piccolo fused with him, but didn't train as hard with Goku, meaning his fusion only put him at his Android saga level.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I agree with that point of view regarding Piccolo in M6. He's fused with Kami but still only around his Android level self.

[Kamiccolo9]

None of them do.They usually are equals to the Z-Fighers of the episodes they are mimicking.
The Daizenshuu says it takes place during the 10 day wait, which is 100% wrong and I don't think I need to explain why.

Please do.

In universe reason?Well, I have one.Piccolo isn't as strong as he was against 20 and he is fused, so his power up doesn't surpass the SSJs, but only makes him equal to his Pre-reunion counterpart.

Says who? We don't have any numbers from that area, so you saying he's that weak is just an assumption. There's nothing against having Piccolo stronger than the Super Saiyans in M6 except for that robot fight, and I've already explained why that shouldn't matter.

Usually, if the fighters is significantly stronger, then their clothes remain intact.Chiaotzu might have damaged Nappa a bit, same with Tenshinhan, but more.18 is a cyborg.They have higher ''defense''.

Nappa tanked their attacks with zero effort, while being caught off guard. Clothes just get damaged easily.

Cell didn't have any scratches on him.At least I don't see them.Even if he had any, it could be from being crushed in the ground, kind of like Krillin getting wounded by a rock in the Freeza saga

.
You were just complementing the Androids' defense, yet now you say that Cell was scratched up from the ground? These characters come out unscathed from being knocked through mountains all the time; why would Cell be hurt from being pushed into the ground?
And yes, he's covered in scratches. Look at him after he emerges from the hole. He's pretty banged up.

Spoiler:

[img]http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/5439/scratch1aj0.png
[/img]

EDIT:Kami was removed from the existence, due to the plot.In universe explanation:Piccolo fused with him, but didn't train as hard with Goku, meaning his fusion only put him at his Android saga level.[/quote]
This might work, but like I said earlier, nothing contradicts him being at his Super Namek strength.

[Draken]

I approve highly of your BoG powers

[Mjb1985]

Cooler does say Goku is the strongest in Movie 6.

[Kamiccolo9]

Cooler does say Goku is the strongest in Movie 6.

At what point?

[Mjb1985]

When Cooler first arrives to greet the group.

[Kamiccolo9]

When Cooler first arrives to greet the group.

So before he encountered Piccolo. What was the direct quote?

[PerfectFreeza]

Please do.

Cell and Trunks are non-existent, Gohan is not Super Saiyan and only around Krillin and Goku and Vegeta are about equals and just normal SSJs.

Says who? We don't have any numbers from that area, so you saying he's that weak is just an assumption. There's nothing against having Piccolo stronger than the Super Saiyans in M6 except for that robot fight, and I've already explained why that shouldn't matter.

Piccolo faces Metal Cooler in the Big Ghetti star and gets annihilated.The same one Goku and Vegeta beat.
You are right about the two next points.

This might work, but like I said earlier, nothing contradicts him being at his Super Namek strength.

See the point above.
Also, what Mjb1985 said.I never have seen the movie with subs, but I have heard that from a lot of people before.

[Mjb1985]

No he says it right in front of Piccolo.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I approve highly of your BoG powers

Thanks .

[Kamiccolo9]

No he says it right in front of Piccolo.

So, before they even start fighting, and are likely surpressed. So he's likely referring to the last time he sensed their fighting strength, which would be during the events of M5.
Cell not being mentioned means nothing, Trunks could still be in the ROSAT, IIRC he went in alone the second time.
Gohan's lack of SSJ can be explained in the same way that Goku's was in Movie 4, PIS. Maybe he just didn't feel like using it, like Goku seemed to in Movie 5? Gohan was never really pushed into transforming in this movie.
Cooler says he gets stronger every time he repairs himself, and he first encounters Piccolo after repairing himself for the first time against Goku. Also, Piccolo was caught off guard, and was likely suppressed at the time. There is nothing wrong with Piccolo being stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the movie.

[PerfectFreeza]

Why would they be suppressed?There is no evidence of him being suppressed.
Cell not being mentioned means he didn't exist.If that were the case, then Vegeta wouldn't be equals with Goku.
Goku not being SSJ in M4 is because he is the Ginyu saga Goku.Goku couldn't go SSJ in M5 at will.
So he would rather be held captive instead of helping his father?Gohan and the others were peeing in their pants, when the Meta-Coolers were in front of them.If he was Post-Rosat, he wouldn't be really worried and be above his dad, instead of being pushed to Krillin's tier.Yes, but Vegeta and Goku beat him together.The same Cooler, that took out supposed Kamiccolo.Why would he always be suppressed?There is no evidence of that.He could have been off-guard, when he met Meta-Cooler, but later on, you see him hit the wall and be heavily injured.
The Daizenshuu statement is just flat out wrong.The Cell Games didn't even exist in the manga at the time of the release of the movie, as far as I know.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why would they be suppressed?There is no evidence of him being suppressed.
Cell not being mentioned means he didn't exist.If that were the case, then Vegeta wouldn't be equals with Goku.
Goku not being SSJ in M4 is because he is the Ginyu saga Goku.Goku couldn't go SSJ in M5 at will.
So he would rather be held captive instead of helping his father?Gohan and the others were peeing in their pants, when the Meta-Coolers were in front of them.If he was Post-Rosat, he wouldn't be really worried and be above his dad, instead of being pushed to Krillin's tier.Yes, but Vegeta and Goku beat him together.The same Cooler, that took out supposed Kamiccolo.Why would he always be suppressed?There is no evidence of that.He could have been off-guard, when he met Meta-Cooler, but later on, you see him hit the wall and be heavily injured.
The Daizenshuu statement is just flat out wrong.The Cell Games didn't even exist in the manga at the time of the release of the movie, as far as I know.

They are always suppressed when not fighting. That's an established fact in the series.
No, it just means that Cell wasn't mentioned.
Toei made Vegeta Goku's equal. There is no point in the entire Android Arc where Goku and Vegeta are close to being equals, so they either buffed Vegeta or nerfed Goku.
Sure, why not? Goku was content to be beaten nearly to death before he transformed in M5, so why couldn't Gohan be unwilling to transform?
And who says he's in Krillin's tier? We see him fight the same enemies that Krillin beat, but so did Piccolo. Are you saying that Piccolo is now on Krillin's tier?
Goku and Vegeta, using everything they had, managed to barely beat one Metal Cooler. I see no contradiction here.
He's suppressed because he's trying to infiltrate the Big Gete Star.
I've said this numerous times before. What existed at the time the movie was made is irrelevant. The Daizenshuu retroactively placed the movie there, and Toryama approved them.

[PerfectFreeza]

But that doesn't make Kamiccolo stronger.
If he wasn't mentioned, then he didn't exist.
Umm...they are about equals.Vegeta is just a bit stronger.Toei made him stronger.When Vegeta attacks Meta-Cooler, he manages to make him look in pain with his kick and then makes him move his head with his kick to the head, unlike with Goku's attacks, where he barely budged at all of his attacks.
Goku COULDN'T go SSJ at will in M5.That's the difference.
The fact, that he got captured along with Krillin and the minor characters, unlike Piccolo, directly shows that.Plus, they both fight together.No, but Piccolo annihilated the Battle Robots and went on his own to the Big Ghetti Star, whereas they got captured.Gohan also has long hair and wears his Android saga clothes.
18, who's a lot weaker than 17, who is around Kamiccolo's level, couldn't probably handle Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo at once.Let's say Trunks and Piccolo fill Goku in that role.That would make Meta-Cooler on 18's level, who Kamiccolo was greater than.He was heavily injured by just one attack from Meta-Cooler.Look at what happened, with Gero, when he was attacked at his suppressed level.He was fine.Same case here.Besides, why wouldn't Piccolo pick on Meta-Cooler instead of Goku?He was more than happy to interrupt his fight with 13.
The Daizenshuus also placed M1 before Z, yet the Z-Fighters act, like they know Gohan and all.
It also placed M3 during the Namek saga, yet they are on Earth.Even though Toriyama approved them, they are still evidently wrong.Movie 3 can't take place during the Namek saga, because the heroes are on..well Namek, not Earth, yet they are on Earth in M3.

[Kamiccolo9]

But that doesn't make Kamiccolo stronger.

No, but it shows why Cooler wouldn't have called him the strongest, and it explains how he was taken out so easily.

If he wasn't mentioned, then he didn't exist.

Just because they went one day without mentioning Cell's name does not mean he doesn't exist. Maybe they talked about him in the ship? Maybe they had other things to occupy them on Namek?

Umm...they are about equals.Vegeta is just a bit stronger.Toei made him stronger.When Vegeta attacks Meta-Cooler, he manages to make him look in pain with his kick and then makes him move his head with his kick to the head, unlike with Goku's attacks, where he barely budged at all of his attacks.

We don't know how strong Goku was in the early Android Arc. We never see him healthy.

Goku COULDN'T go SSJ at will in M5.That's the difference.

Says who? He should have been able to, yet he didn't. It's stated that Goku can go SSJ at will when he returns to Earth. Gohan is in the same situation, but the plot never required him to.

The fact, that he got captured along with Krillin and the minor characters, unlike Piccolo, directly shows that.Plus, they both fight together.No, but Piccolo annihilated the Battle Robots and went on his own to the Big Ghetti Star, whereas they got captured.Gohan also has long hair and wears his Android saga clothes.

Or it just shows that Toei wanted to focus on Goku and Vegeta. Nothing wrong here. Designs don't matter next to official statements.

18, who's a lot weaker than 17, who is around Kamiccolo's level, couldn't probably handle Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo at once.Let's say Trunks and Piccolo fill Goku in that role.That would make Meta-Cooler on 18's level, who Kamiccolo was greater than.He was heavily injured by just one attack from Meta-Cooler.Look at what happened, with Gero, when he was attacked at his suppressed level.He was fine.Same case here.Besides, why wouldn't Piccolo pick on Meta-Cooler instead of Goku?He was more than happy to interrupt his fight with 13.

Cooler wasn't the big threat. The Big Gete Star was the thing that was eating the planet. Piccolo has his priorities. Against Gero, he wouldn't have been fine if the others hadn't shown up to break him loose, and Gero was trying to absorb his energy. Cooler just showed up and blitzed him before Piccolo could do anything. And that Metal Cooler was a different one. The one that Goku and Vegeta fought might have had the same strength when it was destroyed that it did when it started fighting; it just repaired it's hand.

The Daizenshuus also placed M1 before Z, yet the Z-Fighters act, like they know Gohan and all.

They placed it before Z because that's the only place it worked.

It also placed M3 during the Namek saga, yet they are on Earth.Even though Toriyama approved them, they are still evidently wrong.Movie 3 can't take place during the Namek saga, because the heroes are on..well Namek, not Earth, yet they are on Earth in M3.

The movies, aside from 1, 5, the Jump Special, and BOG are in different timelines, and aren't subject to fitting into the canon. 6, being a sequel to 5, may also be, but I'm not sure. The only time it can fit is in the 10 days before the Cell Games. And again, Toryama approved material trumps fan opinion. You have no authority to say that they are wrong.
I'm getting a real sense of deja vu from this topic.

[Mjb1985]

He says it right before they fight those robot things. He seems to make a clear judgement that Goku is the strongest and stronger than ever.

Why don't you check out the clip.

Wait you think this is Post Rosat now? Huh?

[Kamiccolo9]

He says it right before they fight those robot things. He seems to make a clear judgement that Goku is the strongest and stronger than ever.

Why don't you check out the clip.

Wait you think this is Post Rosat now? Huh?

I don't trust the dub on these things, and I can't understand Japanese. I'll see if I can find a subtitled version somewhere.
Still, he's judging them before they had done anything yet. These guys don't display their full power until they fight. So, he's either judging a suppressed group of fighters, or he's basing his views off the last time they met.
And no, not really. The other guy is just saying that it absolutely cannot work, and I'm saying that it can.

[PerfectFreeza]

No, but it shows why Cooler wouldn't have called him the strongest, and it explains how he was taken out so easily.

Why wouldn't then Piccolo go after Coole, instead of Goku?

Just because they went one day without mentioning Cell's name does not mean he doesn't exist. Maybe they talked about him in the ship? Maybe they had other things to occupy them on Namek?

They didn't even mention Trunks at all.Nothing besides Dende indicates it happens during the 10 day wait.In fact, they seemed fine about leaving, when Cell supposed to be on Earth.

We don't know how strong Goku was in the early Android Arc. We never see him healthy.

Piccolo trained with him, so he knows about his power and he judged Vegeta with Goku.

Says who? He should have been able to, yet he didn't. It's stated that Goku can go SSJ at will when he returns to Earth. Gohan is in the same situation, but the plot never required him to.

M5 Goku isn't the Post-Yadrat Goku though.He had to get the life beaten out of him, have Gohan and Krillin fall to unconsiousness, get Piccolo to get blasted in front of him, the bird almost dying....
It's so clearly based off the transformation against Freeza.

Or it just shows that Toei wanted to focus on Goku and Vegeta. Nothing wrong here. Designs don't matter next to official statements.

Assumption.Offical statements focus on only one point and that is Dende.They could focus on Gohan's lack of SSJ and then place it in the Android saga.

Cooler wasn't the big threat. The Big Gete Star was the thing that was eating the planet. Piccolo has his priorities. Against Gero, he wouldn't have been fine if the others hadn't shown up to break him loose, and Gero was trying to absorb his energy. Cooler just showed up and blitzed him before Piccolo could do anything. And that Metal Cooler was a different one. The one that Goku and Vegeta fought might have had the same strength when it was destroyed that it did when it started fighting; it just repaired it's hand.

I am talking about him getting eye beamed in the chest.He took that hit fine, while being suppressed.Cooler attacked Piccolo off-guard once, but Gero did that too and he was fine.
The repairment increased his power though.

They placed it before Z because that's the only place it worked.

It doesn't work though, since they don't know Gohan.

The movies, aside from 1, 5, the Jump Special, and BOG are in different timelines, and aren't subject to fitting into the canon. 6, being a sequel to 5, may also be, but I'm not sure. The only time it can fit is in the 10 days before the Cell Games. And again, Toryama approved material trumps fan opinion. You have no authority to say that they are wrong.
I'm getting a real sense of deja vu from this topic.

M1 can't fit though.The Jump special has Tarble.Now wasn't it stated, that only 4 Saiyans survived?
While we are on the subject of alternate timelines, let's bring in M12.Ginger(Garlic Jr.'s minion), Daiz(Turles's minion), Medamatcha(Lord Slug's minion), Salza, Bojack, Freeza, Paragus and perhaps even more appear in the said movie.All while Majin Boo is mentioned by Goku to have pushed him into SSJ3.Please explain that movie to me.Since you said M3 and M4 are in differed timelines, how could they appear in one timeline?
The said Toriyama approved material contradicts the man's own work though.See Gohan's power decrease for example.The guidebook says he didn't lose power, yet manga says he did.
EDIT.It can't work.Gohan would have to be brain dead to not transform into SSJ and Krillin would have to be haxed beyond belief.

[Kamiccolo9]

M1 can't fit though.The Jump special has Tarble.Now wasn't it stated, that only 4 Saiyans survived?
While we are on the subject of alternate timelines, let's bring in M12.Ginger(Garlic Jr.'s minion), Daiz(Tullece's minion), Medamatcha(Lord Slug's minion), Salza, Bojack, Freeza, Paragus and perhaps even more appear in the said movie.All while Majin Boo is mentioned by Goku to have pushed him into SSJ3.Please explain that movie to me.Since you said M3 and M4 are in differed timelines, how could they appear in one timeline?
The said Toriyama approved material contradicts the man's own work though.See Gohan's power decrease for example.The guidebook says he didn't lose power, yet manga says he did.
EDIT.It can't work.Gohan would have to be brain dead to not transform into SSJ and Krillin would have to be haxed beyond belief.

See the Versus thread. I'm not really interested in arguing this further.
Just because they appeared in movie 12, does not mean the exact events from those previous movies occurred. People escaped from Hell. It just means that they died at some point before movie 12.
There's already a big thread on the Gohan situation in the In-Universe forum. I suggest you look there.