Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Victorious]

Goku was helpless, quickly realized he was completely surpassed and had to go into a life threatening KKx3. Freeza could actually damage Goku.

Goku never made any real effort to fight Vegeta in a long battle with that power, because he knew it would be pointless, as he was at a stamina disadvantage and a power disadvantage, giving him basically no chance of winning. Freeza didn't and actually made an effort to fight, mostly because he didn't have another power up to go to.

Vegeta beat Goku with a 75 percent gap? When Goku was in KKx3 Vegeta did not get one punch or kick in, Vegeta got decimated. Yeah he regained his balance after holding his stomach in agony for a few minutes..he couldn't even stand up on his own two feet initially. If Goku could have stayed in KKx3 and also went aggressive and went for the kill after he slammed Vegeta into the rock i'm sure he could have finished him off pretty quick. But obviously Goku had to back out of KKx3 because it was semi suicidal to stay in it.

Vegeta shrugged off Goku's hits and blasted him with a Galick Gun. Goku countered, but Vegeta's technique was superior, forcing Goku to use the life threatening kaio-ken x4. Vegeta ate that blast and just got mad. After that Goku was so exhausted and his body so stressed that if Vegeta hadn't wasted power on the power ball + transformation, he could have just easily killed him. So yeah, he beat someone at 24,000 while just being 18,000 himself, using his techniques, perseverance, and toughness.

He couldn't finish off Vegeta because Vegeta is extremely tough. If gaps were consistent 100% of the time, Goku simply would've punched through him in the first hit and then blown him up.

He got his arms snapped back..complete strength feat and one shotted with a blast. That's like SSJ Goku vs 50 percent Goku type feats. Goku couldn't just hold Freeza in place and one shot him with a blast.

He got taken off guard after wildly lashing out and then restrained. Then he got killed in one shot to the back while running away. As said, off guard shots = pain. There's also the fact that ki is made up of vitality, courage, and being in the right state of mind. Dodoria didn't have two of these things when he learned Vegeta was slightly stronger than him.

Vegeta survived a KKx4 KHH 32,000 BP to 18,000 to the face, how is he less durable than Freeza? Freeza actually matched Goku's speed initially too...Vegeta couldnt match Zarbon for shit, he got decimated.

Freeza survived a 150,000,000 (at least) blast to the face while he was cut in half and had no ki left. Like, really, Goku said he barley gave him enough ki to move (and I think he implied that if he gave the same amount to anyone else, it wouldn't even be enough to do that) and Freeza still survived. While bleeding out from cutting himself in half. What do you think that his power level was when he was missing half his body and could barley move? 1,000,000? He also shrugged off a beating from someone over twice as powerful as him.

Again, many reasons for that. The simplest one is that Zarbon is simply above 30,0000, and is actually 32 or 33 thousand. It's not impossible. Another one is that Vegeta was getting arrogant with his new power and was taken off guard (he does just stand there in shock while Zarbon charges). Or speed =/= power level, which is shown repeatedly. Not that I really saw any evidence that Vegeta was completely outmatched in speed anyway. He at least dodged Zarbon a few times, and Zarbon resorted to distracting him before blitzing, which he wouldn't do if Vegeta was already so much slower than him.

When was Zarbon called Rusty?

I don't know the exact chapter, but I distinctly remember Vegeta saying that he's gotten complacent with being Freeza's lap dog.

Anyway i'm sure he's fought at Max power a lot more recently than Freeza has. Freeza should have more 'rust'.

But he doesn't have Freeza's physical attributes or techniques. I also don't think that Freeza is really that unskilled, considering the wide variety of powers he is shown demonstrating.

Anyway, the point was these were all 75 to 90 percent gaps or so and they were completely one sidded. So there is no proof in the manga that a guy with around an 80% gap can compete with his superior and half a dozen counter examples that he can't.

I guess Recoome vs Vegeta didn't happen?


Aside from that, your list just seems like it defies many heavy implications from the manga. Monster Zarbon was implied to be at least as strong as Vegeta, as Vegeta never relied on his new strength to give him an advantage, and instead made a bigger deal of the fact that Zarbon will come at him off guard (then he compliments himself on it after throwing sand in Zarbon's eyes and spamming ki blasts, after which he states that Zarbon's power fell a lot). Freeza was shown to be MUCH weaker than Goku. Piccolo was heavily implied to be in the same tier as the Super Saiyans at the Cell Games and at least superior to Semi-Cell, but here he's for some reason nowhere near the base saiyans and forever weaker than Imperfect Cell. Kaioshin has feats that also put him in the same tier as the Super Saiyans, yet he's weaker than Imperfect Cell here as well. Et cetera.

Not to mention that the numbers just seem way too damn high...

Huh, I actually have a theory like that myself. Vegetto splitting in such an unnatural way left Goku and Vegeta with half of Vegetto's power each, leading them to easily defeat the clones of the absorbees. That makes SS2 Goku exactly equal to SS1 Vegetto, and makes sense as to why he'd use that form against Pure Boo in the anime.

This would also explain why Goku is seemingly so haxxed in the movies.

So all you can give me is some conjecture you pull out your rear which basically you make up. lol There's 6 battle power examples of 75 to 90 percent gaps and 0 counter examples in the manga to support 80 percent can tango with 100 percent. 0

If you could show me even one where we know 2 fighters battle powers and give a counter example then i'd at least consider but it's 6 for 0. Keep making excuses. I could say Semi Cell has a lower battle power than 16 and just has "greater durability" and that's how he tanked his punch, lol. That's basically the level of argument you have. It was also Perfect Cell's greater durability and superior skill compared to Super Vegeta which is why he beat Vegeta up, Cell was probably only 75% of Vegeta in that fight. It was Gero's old age and over confidence why he lost to Piccolo, despite having an equal battle power.

[Draken]

It can't work.Gohan would have to be brain dead to not transform into SSJ and Krillin would have to be haxed beyond belief.

You don't seem to have that problem with Goku in Coolers Revenge.

[RandomGuy96]

So all you can give me is some conjecture you pull out your rear which basically you make up. lol There's 6 battle power examples of 75 to 90 percent gaps and 0 counter examples in the manga to support 80 percent can tango with 100 percent. 0

So because I actually follow official material rather than assuming that my fan opinions trump all, I pulled it out of my ass, right? Oh, and of course since I have a different opinion than you, it's laughable, is that it?

Look, I've tried to be polite, but I'm getting sick of this. We have no reason to converse if you're just going to keep up the condescending and insulting attitude.

If you could show me even one where we know 2 fighters battle powers and give a counter example then i'd at least consider but it's 6 for 0.

Goku vs Freeza. There's your counterexample. Comes from the official guidebooks, approved by Akira Toriyama, written by a staff that has his personal stamp of approval.

When dealing with official material, you have to actually provide a reason why your fan opinion should trump it. All you have is your interpretation of certain events, i.e. power always trumps everything, there are absolutely no other factors ever, and gaps are always 100% consistent, even though the manga shows that's not true.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta was able to fight Recoome fairly well for being 75%.

[RandomGuy96]

He also basically beat Goku with that same gap.

For futher gap inconsistency, 50-70% Freeza did better against Goku then Vegeta did against Monster Zarbon, with a smaller gap.

[PerfectFreeza]

You don't seem to have that problem with Goku in Coolers Revenge.

He couldn'z go SSJ at will.

[Kaboom]

So all you can give me is some conjecture you pull out your rear which basically you make up. lol There's 6 battle power examples of 75 to 90 percent gaps and 0 counter examples in the manga to support 80 percent can tango with 100 percent. 0

If you could show me even one where we know 2 fighters battle powers and give a counter example then i'd at least consider but it's 6 for 0. Keep making excuses. I could say Semi Cell has a lower battle power than 16 and just has "greater durability" and that's how he tanked his punch, lol. That's basically the level of argument you have. It was also Perfect Cell's greater durability and superior skill compared to Super Vegeta which is why he beat Vegeta up, Cell was probably only 75% of Vegeta in that fight. It was Gero's old age and over confidence why he lost to Piccolo, despite having an equal battle power.

Let's make something clear: On this forum, posts like this do not fly. Nobody gets to act condescending to other members because they're not "enlightened" enough to share the same views as them. Nobody gets to mock other members with "lol" and emoticons as if they and their opinions are foolish and beneath you. Nobody gets to spit out obviously false and exaggerated misrepresentations of the other's opinions to make fun of them. Especially not about freaking power levels.

Have some class and respect for your peers and discuss things civilly, or before long you won't be allowed to post at all.

That goes for everyone else, as well. There's no reason that these threads should end up with these types of conflicts, but some reason they always do.

[TheMightyOzaru]

@Victorious: Look man, you think the Daizenshuu are "non canon". I wouldn't be talking above anyone if I were you.

[Draken]

You don't seem to have that problem with Goku in Coolers Revenge.

He couldn'z go SSJ at will.

Prove it. It's post-Yardrat isn't it? Same stupidity with Gohan.

[PerfectFreeza]

It's not Post-Yadrat Goku IMO.
I also came up with this new theory:
M5 takes place in an alternate timeline, where Goku killed Freeza after Ginyu with Kaioken x 10.Master Roshi said Goku trained like crazy after returning, right?
That way, Goku is only strong enough, to decently fight off the henchmen, who have the Weekly Jump's levels.Gohan and Krillin are also not very strong, only strong enough to beat 1st form Freeza with Vegeta together.
Piccolo could be the Pre-Nail fusion Piccolo.

[Draken]

It's not Post-Yadrat Goku IMO.
I also came up with this new theory:
M5 takes place in an alternate timeline, where Goku killed Freeza after Ginyu with Kaioken x 10.Master Roshi said Goku trained like crazy after returning, right?
That way, Goku is only strong enough, to decently fight off the henchmen, who have the Weekly Jump's levels.Gohan and Krillin are also not very strong, only strong enough to beat 1st form Freeza with Vegeta together.
Piccolo could be the Pre-Nail fusion Piccolo.

Yet his SSJ was enough to completely ass-stomp someone stronger than final form Freeza. Hmmmm.

[PerfectFreeza]

He recieved a zenkai, didn't he?

[Mjb1985]

I used to think that Vegeta put up a decent fight against Reecome but after re reading it several times I'm under the impression that Vegeta was nothing more than Reecome's plaything. Reecome basically let's Vegeta go all out of him without a care in the world and eventually says alright I'm going to do something back and even while holding back hurts Vegeta gravely more than he wanted to.

I'd say its similar situation to letting your kid sister hit you with everything you got and then you try to fight back a little with minimal effort and almost knock her out while not trying.

Different worlds of power IMO.

[Draken]

He recieved a zenkai, didn't he?

Speculation, it was never mentioned. And no one seemed surprised he transformed into a SSJ, while using your theory that would have been his first time.

[Mjb1985]

Yea considering " Super Saiyan " was introduced already in Movie 5 and that Cooler is specifically looking for a Super Saiyan, as well as Goku actually defeating Freeza, I'm inclined to believe that Goku did in fact become a Super Saiyan.

For me the timeline makes sense as if Goku had went home immediately after defeating Freeza and had trained for a couple of years on his own.

[PerfectFreeza]

If it did take place after Goku returned from Yadrat, like Daizenshuu says, then he could go SSJ at will.
He can't do that in this movie.

From his love for his friends, Goku finally becomes a Super Saiyan!! That power overwhelms even Coola.

He wouldn't need the love for his friends to become a SSJ at all.It also says finally, meaning he couldn't go SSJ at his own will.

[Draken]

If it did take place after Goku returned from Yadrat, like Daizenshuu says, then he could go SSJ at will.
He can't do that in this movie.

From his love for his friends, Goku finally becomes a Super Saiyan!! That power overwhelms even Coola.

He wouldn't need the love for his friends to become a SSJ at all.It also says finally, meaning he couldn't go SSJ at his own will.

Or it took the love for his friends for him to realize it wasn't futile and willfully transformed to stop him. It's movie logic, they always fight in base first, get whomped, get mad, then go SSJ.

[PerfectFreeza]

Goku isn't that stupid and hardheaded.
While movie logic works like that, they usually are scratchless and not on the verge of losing consiousness.

[Draken]

Goku isn't that stupid and hardheaded.
While movie logic works like that, they usually are scratchless and not on the verge of losing consiousness.

Really? Almost getting himself, Vegeta, Satan, and Dende killed while dooming Earth and its population during the fight with Kid Buu due to underestimating Buu's true power, overestimating SSJ3, and refusing to fuse says otherwise.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.