Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[PerfectFreeza]

He underestimated Buu 's chaotic nature, not power and he overestimated SSJ3, because he didn't know it caused huge strain on him.
His refusal of fusion was just his Saiyan pride, atop the fact, that Pure Buu was someone he could fight on his own and it was permanent.

[RandomGuy96]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.

Official material, including the Daizenshuu you treasure, says otherwise. As does Movie 6.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.

Or maybe, Goku didn't transform immediately because PIS.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.

Or maybe, Goku didn't transform immediately because PIS.

That's one explanation, but it's not mine.

[Kamiccolo9]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.

Or maybe, Goku didn't transform immediately because PIS.

That's one explanation, but it's not mine.

One I've considered is that he was saving SSJ as a last resort, so as not to potentially set off his heart virus.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's one but we see Goku using SSJ while training the others so it would seem to me he used it prior to Cooler's arrival.

[Kamiccolo9]

That's one but we see Goku using SSJ while training the others so it would seem to me he used it prior to Cooler's arrival.

If I recall correctly, we only see him using it on a chapter cover, not in the actual content of the manga itself. So you could just attribute that to Toryama wanting to make the cover look pretty

[Draken]

He underestimated Buu 's chaotic nature, not power and he overestimated SSJ3, because he didn't know it caused huge strain on him.
His refusal of fusion was just his Saiyan pride, atop the fact, that Pure Buu was someone he could fight on his own and it was permanent.

Exactly, thank you. Hardheaded, stubborn, stupidity.

[Victorious]

So all you can give me is some conjecture you pull out your rear which basically you make up. lol There's 6 battle power examples of 75 to 90 percent gaps and 0 counter examples in the manga to support 80 percent can tango with 100 percent. 0

So because I actually follow official material rather than assuming that my fan opinions trump all, I pulled it out of my ass, right? Oh, and of course since I have a different opinion than you, it's laughable, is that it?

Look, I've tried to be polite, but I'm getting sick of this. We have no reason to converse if you're just going to keep up the condescending and insulting attitude.

If you could show me even one where we know 2 fighters battle powers and give a counter example then i'd at least consider but it's 6 for 0.

Goku vs Freeza. There's your counterexample. Comes from the official guidebooks, approved by Akira Toriyama, written by a staff that has his personal stamp of approval.

When dealing with official material, you have to actually provide a reason why your fan opinion should trump it. All you have is your interpretation of certain events, i.e. power always trumps everything, there are absolutely no other factors ever, and gaps are always 100% consistent, even though the manga shows that's not true.

Is there any evidence AT even ever overlooked those official numbers? They came out years after the manga was concluded. I very much doubt AT had those in mind when he wrote the manga as he didnt put them there.

Some guidebook numbers have shown to be blatantly false like Piccolo Daimao being stronger than Tenshinhan at the start of Z! when Ten completely surpassed him at the 23rd. Seriously the dedication to those numbers by some folks here i find to be cult like. But it's your choice so whatever i'm not gonna argue about it forever. Apologies for sounding like an arse btw.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Movie 5 takes place in an alternate universe where Goku came home directly after Yardrat and never bothered getting SSJ under his control IMO.

Or maybe, Goku didn't transform immediately because PIS.

That's one explanation, but it's not mine.

Daizenshuu accepts it as part of the timeline, and GT has Coola, so it seems to be the case.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Daizenshuu accepts it as part of the timeline, and GT has Coola, so it seems to be the case.

Shueisha's timeline doesn't have to be linear. It can still branch and have Cooler and GT as part of it's continuity.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shueisha's timeline doesn't have to be linear.

If it wasn't, then it would have all the movies, but it doesn't.

[PerfectFreeza]

It has to be one linelar timeline, since Salza appears along with Daiz in M12.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Shueisha's timeline doesn't have to be linear.

If it wasn't, then it would have all the movies, but it doesn't.

Or he just considers the rest non canon =/.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shueisha's timeline doesn't have to be linear.

If it wasn't, then it would have all the movies, but it doesn't.

Or he just considers the rest non canon =/.

The rest take place in (an) alternative universe(s), like Toriyama said. But Movies 1, 5, and 14 seem to take place in the anime universe as well.


BTW, Shueisha is not a person, it's a company. Not a "he".

[TheMightyOzaru]

No here is his exact statement:

What is your personal stance on Dragon Ball’s theatrical films, Sensei?
I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the manga”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them.

The anime is separate from the manga altogether. I use the alternate universe idea Toriyama suggested to make sense of the inconsistencies. Shuiesha doesn't necessarily find the other films to be canon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shueisha's anime "canon" seems to be the whole anime (DB, DBZ, DBGT, and the 3 TV Specials), DBZ Movies 1, 5, and 14, EoB, and JSAT. That's what they decided to include in their main Timeline. Of course, there is also the alternative universe where all the movies take place (the movie-verses are probably more than one, since there is the 10th Anniversary & the PtEtSS remake), and most likely, there is also the manga universe. Movie 5 happened in the anime. It's a fact. And with all the inconsistencies that there are in the anime, I don't see any problem.

[RandomGuy96]

Taken from another thread in the in-universe section:

I've started to lean towards Gotenks being a LOT stronger than Super Buu. Super Buu was completely helpless in that fight, only landing two hits (and only because Gotenks left himself wide open and is an idiot, according to Piccolo). Only Buu's (likely amplified) mouth blast did any damage, and while it clearly hurt Gotenks, it accomplished little more than pissing him off. IMO, even an 80% gap is too generous; Freeza and Vegeta did a lot better against Goku and Recoome respectively with the same gap, and didn't have the deck stacked in their favor nearly as much as Buu did (he has better techniques, infinite stamina, regeneration, an idiotic opponent, et cetera).

In addition to making the fight along with Goten's, Trunks', Piccolo's, Gohan's, and Goku's statements make more sense, it also lets me have even pre-ROSAT SS Gotenks decently above Fat Buu, while still having him make decent gains in the ROSAT. At the moment I'm leaning towards:

Gotenks (post-ROSAT)-
-Super Saiyan- 17,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3- 136,000,000,000
--Kamehameha (unfinished)- 204,000,000,000

Super Buu- 100,000,000,000
--Mouth Blast- 125,000,000,000

Fat Buu- 13,000,000,000

Goku-
-Super Saiyan 2- 10,250,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3- 41,000,000,000

Vegeta-
-Majin SS2- 10,000,000,000

Gotenks (pre-ROSAT)
-Super Saiyan- 15,000,000,000

What do you guys think?

[Draken]

Aren't Goku and Vegeta dead equal?

[RandomGuy96]

Basically. There is supposed to be practically no difference in their power.