The one level theory on Gogeta and Vegito

[miguelnuva1]

Has any one heard of the one level theory with Gogeta and Vegito. Basically Goku's power+ potara+ Rival boost make Vegito one level ahead of Gogeta so what ever MSSJ Vegito can do SSJ2 Gogeta can so it and what ever SSJ2 Vegito can do SSJ3 Gogeta can do it.

Personally I've stood by this theory but what does everyone else feel?

[VegettoEX]

Seems as arbitrary a theory as anything else. Nothing to suggest it; nothing to not suggest it.

[hleV]

If it was SS Vegetto ~ SS2 Gogeta, it wouldn't apply to other forms because of different multipliers. So base Vegetto ~ SS Gogeta, SS2 Vegetto ~ SS3 Gogeta would be wrong.

[miguelnuva1]

If it was SS Vegetto ~ SS2 Gogeta, it wouldn't apply to other forms because of different multipliers. So base Vegetto ~ SS Gogeta, SS2 Vegetto ~ SS3 Gogeta would be wrong.

Not that their equal power level just that Gogeta needs the next level to get a small advantage wile in the same level Vegito has a huge advantage.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ssj3 Gogeta would still lose to Super Vegetto.

[Kaboom]

The "one level difference" idea is what I subscribe to (and you may have heard it from me), and I can assure you it's TOTALLY arbitrary. It's not a strict mathematical idea with SSj multipliers or anything, either. Just a general idea of, "whatever Vegetto can do in one form, Gogeta would need one form higher to do."

The way I figure it, both Gogeta and Vegetto stand so far above everyone else in the series in terms of strength (until Beers and Whis got introduced, anyhoo), that any estimates about their full power would be arbitrary no matter how you slice it.

[Sshadow5001]

I always figured there the same strength. When Old Kai said the potora stronger I figure he just meant they were better because there was no time limit to worry about. We know stronger forms like ssj3 reduce the 30 minute limit so the potora are stronger in that sense.

[Pantalones]

Yeah, I always figured the gap between the two fusions (while there probably is one) wasn't a very big gap. The biggest advantage of the Potara fusion would be that it doesn't run out in 30 minutes (or less with SSj3 energy drain), so you don't have to worry about the super-powerful guy you're fighting outlasting your fusion just by regenerating or sneaking around and avoiding a fight until it runs out. There's also the whole "stronger person doesn't have to lower their power to match the weaker one" thing, though I'm not sure if that would really apply to Goku and Vegeta at the time they fused (is the Majin boost permanent, or does it go away when the M on Vegeta's forehead does? I remember reading somewhere that the hypnosis and power-up were actually two separate spells, but were they linked in some way or completely independent of each other?)

I don't see the "rival boost" as a real feature of the Potara itself, just a statement on how Goku and Vegeta's "always outdoing the other guy" personalities led them to become so strong (more so than just one of them training without the motivation provided by having to keep up with the other for their inevitable rematch.) If you are going to go the "assume there is a literal 'rival boost' added on top of the Potara's known advantages" route, though, a 2x gap in base form (what you'd need to have one of them in SSj equal the other's SSj2) doesn't seem unreasonably high. Nowhere near as bad as putting SSj Gogeta way below Super Buu (somehow) and Vegerot in the thousand zillion billion quadrillions or something absurd like that. That would just mean SSj Vegerot = SSj2 Gogeta, while SSj3 Gogeta would be about twice as strong as SSj2 Vegerot, and SSj3 Vegerot would be the strongest of all the Goku/Vegeta fusions (...unless you want to get GT involved, then SSj4 Gogeta would definitely be the strongest. And then a hypothetical SSj4 Vegerot would be even stronger than that, plus permanent... until he gets eaten by Buu.)

I'd take that over "because of the magical rival boost, Vegerot's power is literally Goku's base power level in Freeza scouter units times Vegeta's base power level in Freeza scouter units" any day, at least. If I was making a power level list and decided "Vegerot's going to be significantly above Gogeta on this list," a 2x gap or so is probably what I'd go with.

[MDSTSSJ]

I have always believe in the one level idea ( normal multipliers should be different for those two ) between Vegetto and Gogeta.

For me, gives some sense where there is no sense!

Ssj3 Gogeta would still lose to Super Vegetto.

Why do you say that?

[miguelnuva1]

So their was something released that Toei said Janemba> Hirudgarn I thought it backed up the one level theory real nice but then I was told on another board that since Goku and Vegeta are at most 2x Goten and Trunks in strength then manga Gogeta would only be 2x Gotenks in the same form and thus couldn't beat Buutenks or Buuhan.

[Piccolo-Boo]

Like I told you on DBZF, I believe Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Gogeta.

~ToP.

[RandomGuy96]

I have always believe in the one level idea ( normal multipliers should be different for those two ) between Vegetto and Gogeta.

For me, gives some sense where there is no sense!

Ssj3 Gogeta would still lose to Super Vegetto.

Why do you say that?

Well, he probably thinks that the kids aren't that much stronger than the adults, so hypothetical manga Gogeta couldn't beat Buuhan. This is supported when Buuhan says that even a fusion of Goku and Vegeta can't beat him, and it's never contradicted (he wasn't counting a new form of fusion, obviously).

[Draken]

I have always believe in the one level idea ( normal multipliers should be different for those two ) between Vegetto and Gogeta.

For me, gives some sense where there is no sense!

Ssj3 Gogeta would still lose to Super Vegetto.

Why do you say that?

Well, he probably thinks that the kids aren't that much stronger than the adults, so hypothetical manga Gogeta couldn't beat Buuhan. This is supported when Buuhan says that even a fusion of Goku and Vegeta can't beat him, and it's never contradicted (he wasn't counting a new form of fusion, obviously).

That's only if you believe that Potara rival boost actually exists. Then you have to reason why a pair of earrings can select a pair of rivals and be like "these guys hate each other. Let's make the fusion of these two super strong!" It's possible Gogeta could have beaten Buu due to neither of them knowing that Vegeta and Goku would have such a perfect powerful fusion as compared to Goten and Trunks.

It could just be, as said above, fusion in general is pretty much the same, with Potara being the better fusion due to perfect (no time limit, SSJ3 fail, no lowering power levels to match, etc). I like the theory that someone posted before, fusion can't quantify power levels and do something special with them. Because for them to quantify power levels to match Freeza scouter levels would just be weird and wouldn't make sense.
So Fusion could do A*B, because it's just multiplying an unknown amount together, but not (A+B) X 100, because then it would have to quantify A and B into numbers like Freeza scouter numbers, which they shouldn't be able to do, because like I said above it's weird for them to pick Freeza's method of reading ki levels.

tl;dr I think Gogeta and Vegetto are pretty much equals.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't buy the one level theory. Not just because it's arbitrary, but because what little we know about hypothetical manga Gogeta puts him below Gohan-Buu.

Gogeta is, IMO, the most overrated character in the entire series.

[Draken]

I have always believe in the one level idea ( normal multipliers should be different for those two ) between Vegetto and Gogeta.

For me, gives some sense where there is no sense!

Ssj3 Gogeta would still lose to Super Vegetto.

Why do you say that?

Well, he probably thinks that the kids aren't that much stronger than the adults, so hypothetical manga Gogeta couldn't beat Buuhan. This is supported when Buuhan says that even a fusion of Goku and Vegeta can't beat him, and it's never contradicted (he wasn't counting a new form of fusion, obviously).

I pray to Gamikai that you meant weaker than the adults.

[miguelnuva1]

I don't buy the one level theory. Not just because it's arbitrary, but because what little we know about hypothetical manga Gogeta puts him below Gohan-Buu.

Gogeta is, IMO, the most overrated character in the entire series.

There is no manga Gogeta only a Anime Gogeta who one shoted someone arguably at at lest Super Buu Level.

[RandomGuy96]

Janemba doesn't have to be anywhere near Buu's level. His fight with Goku is definitely not a point in his favor.

But there is a hypothetical manga Gogeta. The possibility of Goku doing the dance with Vegeta is brought up. All we know about a hypothetical dance fusion of the two is that Buutenks says that it probably can't beat him while Buuhan says that it definitely can't. And Buuhan should be the best judge of this. His statements are also never contradicted.

The Daizenshuu backs him up. It states that Goten is equal to Gohan, so Gogeta obviously can't be worlds above Gotenks.

[Draken]

Janemba doesn't have to be anywhere near Buu's level. His fight with Goku is definitely not a point in his favor.

But there is a hypothetical manga Gogeta. The possibility of Goku doing the dance with Vegeta is brought up. All we know about a hypothetical dance fusion of the two is that Buutenks says that it probably can't beat him while Buuhan says that it definitely can't. And Buuhan should be the best judge of this. His statements are also never contradicted.

The Daizenshuu backs him up. It states that Goten is equal to Gohan, so Gogeta obviously can't be worlds above Gotenks.

Well to be fair Janemba completely dominated and once Gogeta appeared he was shown to power up.

Funny cause I never knew you believed that Goten is actually equal to Gohan

Also no evidence against is not the same as evidence for. It was never contradicted but it was never backed up either.

[miguelnuva1]

Janemba doesn't have to be anywhere near Buu's level. His fight with Goku is definitely not a point in his favor.

But there is a hypothetical manga Gogeta. The possibility of Goku doing the dance with Vegeta is brought up. All we know about a hypothetical dance fusion of the two is that Buutenks says that it probably can't beat him while Buuhan says that it definitely can't. And Buuhan should be the best judge of this. His statements are also never contradicted.

The Daizenshuu backs him up. It states that Goten is equal to Gohan, so Gogeta obviously can't be worlds above Gotenks.

The daiz says Goten's potential= Gohan's potential.

Also I hate talking about a manga Gogeta that doesn't exist when the Anime one is right there.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The daiz says Goten's potential= Gohan's potential.

Nope, it's talking specifically about their battle power.

We see in the manga Gohan barely blocking Goten's hits, which makes me reach the conclusion that they are equals in ki power, but Gohan is stronger in muscle power than both Goten & Trunks, due to his grown up body & his training. And also, Gohan is way more skilled than the kids. Which in the end makes him stronger than them (without counting SS2 & Rage Boost).

And BTW, the manga also hints that Goten & Trunks are Super Saiyan Full Power, which explains why they are so strong.