Did Gohan even lose power?

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, Gohan transformed to SS2 in both situations. Dabra was stronger than Cell, Gohan couldn't fight him as a regular Super Saiyan. Toriyama corrected himself in a interview and Toei seems to forget SS2 exists.

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually, Gohan transformed to SS2 in both situations. Dabra was stronger than Cell, Gohan couldn't fight him as a regular Super Saiyan. Akira corrected himself in a interview and Toei seems to forget SS2 exists.

What interview? I've never seen this.

[Cardle grave]

He wasn't fighting prior to the appearance of Raditz, yet he's gotten a rage boost.

he shown before the raditz saga happened that he gets rage boost when blowing a hole in the tree. And he had a reason to get enrage because of his dad and not to mention his a kid.

Not sure if I understand what do you mean by that, but we didn't see Gohan showing anything that would suggest rage boost or SS2 in ROSAT (unless it's some anime-exclusive shit). And Goku didn't know about SS2 until Gohan became one against Cell.

well i am just guessing, but he saw gohan rage in the HTBC for him to be confident in Gohan beating cell

For Gohan to get really angry, something big has to happen in front of his eyes.

yeah that is true, he shown he can't draw out the same power like he did as a kid with his rage

I somewhat agree with this comparison.

Fantastic, good debate

[Draken]

Fantastic, good debate

If you think even the smallest concession means you've "won" a debate, then I'm not sure what the point of continuing is...

Anyways.

he shown before the raditz saga happened that he gets rage boost when blowing a hole in the tree. And he had a reason to get enrage because of his dad and not to mention his a kid.

No idea what you're saying here, still need to work on grammar. He had a reason to get enraged because his dad was there and because he was a kid?

well i am just guessing, but he saw gohan rage in the HTBC for him to be confident in Gohan beating cell

Room of Spirit and Time, please stop with this hyperbolic time chamber ugh.

Or he just knew Gohan got rage boosts from all the times he had gotten angry prior to fighting with Cell?

yeah that is true, he shown he can't draw out the same power like he did as a kid with his rage

Awesome, great debate.

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, Gohan transformed to SS2 in both situations. Dabra was stronger than Cell, Gohan couldn't fight him as a regular Super Saiyan. Akira corrected himself in a interview and Toei seems to forget SS2 exists.

What interview? I've never seen this.

There's a long time I saw it, but I will look foward to post here as soon as I get it. Toriyama wondered about Dabra's strenght and, thinking about it, it doesn't make sense Gohan fighting him as a Super Saiyan if Cell is much stronger than a regular SS.

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually, Gohan transformed to SS2 in both situations. Dabra was stronger than Cell, Gohan couldn't fight him as a regular Super Saiyan. Akira corrected himself in a interview and Toei seems to forget SS2 exists.

What interview? I've never seen this.

There's a long time I saw it, but I will look foward to post here as soon as I get it. Akira wondered about Dabra's strenght and, thinking about it, it doesn't make sense Gohan fighting him as a Super Saiyan if Cell is much stronger than a regular SS.

I'd appreciate that. Not that I don't believe you, but there are a lot of fake interviews out there, and I've read up on this particular topic many times, and an interview like this has never been mentioned.

[Cardle grave]

If you think even the smallest concession means you've "won" a debate, then I'm not sure what the point of continuing is...Anyways.

Relax your sacks man i just said good debate

No idea what you're saying here, still need to work on grammar. He had a reason to get enraged because his dad was there and because he was a kid?

Working on my grammer, Need time on that. Back on topic he was enrage. because his dad was getting stomped by raditz. And I am just guessing that as a kid he would properly get angry easier

Room of Spirit and Time, please stop with this hyperbolic time chamber ugh. Or he just knew Gohan got rage boosts from all the times he had gotten angry prior to fighting with Cell?

The hell is the difference. Well he barely fights along side with gohan to see anything. The only time he saw gohan enrage was against the tree (don't know if its a filler or not) and raditz

Awesome, great debate.

Yes nice debating with you

[Draken]

Well he was sensing the battle the entire time versus Freeza, I assumed he sensed a weak power get stronger and, deducing Krillin is useless and it could not have been him, assumed it was Gohan getting another inexplicable power boost.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually, Gohan transformed to SS2 in both situations. Dabra was stronger than Cell, Gohan couldn't fight him as a regular Super Saiyan. Akira corrected himself in a interview and Toei seems to forget SS2 exists.

Toriyama forgot what Super Saiyan 2 looked like 20 years after it's debut. When Gohan was fighting Dabra, Gohan had transformed into SS2 very recently before that, and then soon after that fight, Goku & Vegeta transformed into SS2. And since Gohan had the characteristics of Super Saiyan, then I'll say that he was a Super Saiyan.

As for Dabra's power, Goku said that he was about as strong as Cell (and then said that he was stronger than they expected because he could use magic). Since Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan, then maybe Goku was talking about Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell.

What interview? I've never seen this.

I believe he is talking about the recent interview of Toriyama about BoG, where he says that he thought Super Saiyan 3 was Super Saiyan 2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think if you consider Gohan a Super Saiyan, Dabra would be best compared to the Cell Goku fought during the tournament, if anything.

Honestly, if Dabra was as strong (or stronger) as Full-Power Cell, Gohan would've gotten rolled.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'll believe Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura when Toriyama says it himself.

[Hugo Boss]

When Gohan was fighting Dabra, Gohan had transformed into SS2 very recently before that, and then soon after that fight, Goku & Vegeta transformed into SS2. And since Gohan had the characteristics of Super Saiyan, then I'll say that he was a Super Saiyan.

He did had regular Super Saiyan design, it's incontroversal, but it's also inconsistent because even Perfect Cell before zenkai was much stronger than his regular Super Saiyan form, which is on equal terms with East Kaioshin.

As for Dabra's power, Goku said that he was about as strong as Cell (and then said that he was stronger than they expected because he could use magic). Since Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan, then maybe Goku was talking about Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell.

Well, I'm pretty sure he was talking about Perfect Cell after zenkai. It was his ultimate form and Goku felt his ki from Kaio's realm, either way he wouldn't think Gohan was still able to defeat him. I don't think Goku stated Dabra was stronger just because of his magic, actually I didn't see anything like a magic (could it be a mistranslation?), just a normal zanzouken. If you realize Gohan used SS2 it does make sense Dabra being stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

What interview? I've never seen this.

I believe he is talking about the recent interview of Toriyama about BoG, where he says that he thought Super Saiyan 3 was Super Saiyan 2.

Oh No! That interview I meant is pretty old, I saw it 5 years ago in a Portuguese forum. I'm somewhat surprised you didn't know about it, but I'll bring here as soon as possible.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, I'm pretty sure he was talking about Perfect Cell after zenkai. It was his ultimate form and Goku felt his ki from Kaio's realm, either way he wouldn't think Gohan was still able to defeat him.

I agree that it makes more sense for Goku to be talking about Super Perfect Cell. But it is also possible (and more likely if Gohan was a SS2) that he was talking about the Perfect Cell that Goku fought.

I don't think Goku stated Dabra was stronger just because of his magic, actually I didn't see anything like a magic (could it be a mistranslation?), just a normal zanzouken.

Code: Select all

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

Goku is talking about Dabra's magical abilities (he can turn anything into stone with his saliva, he can breath fire, and he can materialize a sword).

I realize that the whole situation is a mess. I also believe that Dabra being at SP Cell level & Gohan as a SS2 makes more sense, and that it makes sense for Gohan to be a SS2 when trying to destroy Boo's Ball, and when he fights Boo. I've changed my mind lots of times. For now, I go by SS Gohan. Later, I may go by SS2 Gohan. And after that, again SS Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I agree that it makes more sense for Goku to be talking about Super Perfect Cell. But it is also possible (and more likely if Gohan was a SS2) that he was talking about the Perfect Cell that Goku fought.

Assuming it's even possible, Goku would be comparing Dabra with a portion of Cell's true power. It's like comparing anyone with Freeza and debate what form and level of his strenght would be. Honestly, what you think about? Doesn't it seem vague?

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

Goku is talking about Dabra's magical abilities (he can turn anything into stone with his saliva, he can breath fire, and he can materialize a sword).

They're in the same panel, but I really don't understand why magical abilities would influence at one's strenght. Or we can assume Dabra has the same powerlevel of Cell but has a upper hand in terms of abilities. Either way I think magic and strenght are different things, the translation is confusing. Maybe "he's way more skilled than I thought" should be more appropriate.

I realize that the whole situation is a mess. I also believe that Dabra being at SP Cell level & Gohan as a SS2 makes more sense, and that it makes sense for Gohan to be a SS2 when trying to destroy Boo's Ball, and when he fights Boo. I've changed my mind lots of times. For now, I go by SS Gohan. Later, I may go by SS2 Gohan. And after that, again SS Gohan.

It wasn't simple to me achieving my current conclusion. I have discussed this topic for years and I had luck to know people like you that helped me a lot. Ideas might change, I've been learning a lot here also.

Btw, I noted my posts have been edited. Can I not refer to Akira Toriyama as Akira here?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Assuming it's even possible, Goku would be comparing Dabra with a portion of Cell's true power. It's like comparing anyone with Freeza and debate what form and level of his strenght would be. Honestly, what you think about? Doesn't it seem vague?

Yes, I completely angry with you in this. It's like we have Goku saying "Gohan has surpassed Freeza", but refers to Freeza's 2nd Form. Or, saying in Boo arc that Kuririn surpassed Goku, but refers to 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc Goku.

They're in the same panel, but I really don't understand why magical abilities would influence at one's strenght. Or we can assume Dabra has the same powerlevel of Cell but has a upper hand in terms of abilities.

That's what Goku means. Since he has powerful skills, it makes him in overall more powerful.

Either way I think magic and strenght are different things, the translation is confusing. Maybe "he's way skilled than I thought" should be more appropriate.

The translation is very literal, so that's what the manga says.

BTW, if you pay close attention, while Daizenshuu 2 implies that Gohan wasn't a SS2 against Dabra (since it says Vol. 37, not Vol. 37+), it seems that the missing "+" is a typo. The comments about SS2 Gohan fit perfectly with Vegeta's comments about Gohan when he was fighting Dabra, and with Gohan's problem when trying to destroy Boo's Ball.

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

And Daizenshuu 7 states that Gohan was a SS2 against Dabra:

A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

And logic says that Gohan should be a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra & Boo... so, maybe the Daizenshuu writers also believed that Toriyama had erroneously drawn Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2?

[Mjb1985]

I prefer Viz's " He's a lot tougher than I thought " in regards to Dabura's magical abilities. In context, Goku is just saying that Dabura's has special skills which makes him a more difficult opponent. I don't think Goku is saying that Dabura's battle power is higher than he previously thought.

The Gohan issue is really tough. But he clearly has lost power as in his ki has atrophied IMO at least. The rage boost can definitely be a factor but isn't necessarily so.

[Hugo Boss]

The Gohan issue is really tough. But he clearly has lost power as in his ki has atrophied IMO at least. The rage boost can definitely be a factor but isn't necessarily so.

I think Gohan didn't lose power in the overall circunstance, just had a problem to bring it out. His anger was not like it was against Cell (I suppose back then it was far greater) and so he couldn't gain power for anger. The training factor is an add to his weak spot, if he had trained he could be stronger than he was against Cell and, allying with his capability to bring out his full power through great anger, he would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta. That's how I interpreted.

Then you have two factors that doesn't necessarily affect his overall battle power, only stop him from using his 100% or getting stronger. Gohan had these two factors to oppose him and wouldn't be a match to his Cell Games' counterpart.

[RandomGuy96]

The Daiz states he was a SS2 during the fight, and he does have a different hair style IIRC. I'm just going to save myself the trouble and assume that he was a SS2 that whole arc, because no one commented on him being unable to turn SS2, even when it would have really made sense, and Kaioshin was fanboying over the Gohan that fought Dabura and Fat Buu after sensing SS2 Gohan at the tournament, which would obviously make no sense if that Gohan was way weaker.

[Mjb1985]

Yea it does seem easier to do it that way. AT probably just wanted to go another direction and just made a bad transition.