Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

I always figured, if anything, Vegeta had the edge.

[Kamiccolo9]

I always figured, if anything, Vegeta had the edge.

I did too, but I feel like that had more to do with him being all berserk during the fight than any power difference between them. The story seems to imply that they are dead even, but to me it looks like Vegeta was doing slightly better during the fight.

[Draken]

Yea that's one thing I think is a bit weird with the list. Another is that Fat Buu seems way too weak. At that rate Goku Vegeta and Gohan combined should have been able to do something against Buu, maybe even beat him. But they said they had no chance even working together.

[Mjb1985]

Yea if Goku, Vegeta and Gohan all combine to fight Fat Buu it would be pointless. Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost, there is plenty of room to make that all work. The minimum I would make Fat Buu is double the Super Saiyan 2's and half of Ssj3 Goku.

[Kaboom]

The minimum I would make Fat Buu is double the Super Saiyan 2's and half of Ssj3 Goku.

That's about where I have Fat Boo, myself. It also seems to fit with what the meter for reviving him showed us, that Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power restored "almost half" of Boo's power. If SSj2 Goku and Vegeta are about half of Boo's strength, then SSj2 Gohan would be appropriately lagging behind them at somewhere between that and one third.

[RandomGuy96]

I always figured, if anything, Vegeta had the edge.

What Kamiccolo said. Also, IMO, a power difference of 5% or less basically has no effect at all, and so someone who is 5% weaker than someone else would for all intents and purposes be considered equal to that someone.

Yea that's one thing I think is a bit weird with the list. Another is that Fat Buu seems way too weak. At that rate Goku Vegeta and Gohan combined should have been able to do something against Buu, maybe even beat him. But they said they had no chance even working together.

Fat Buu's insane regeneration and infinite stamina (i.e. no wearing him down, no sneak punches, very limited ki attack options... all of which make fighting him as a team very impractical) may have something to do with that. Overall he seemed way closer to the SS2 tier than the SS3 tier, IMO, as Vegeta was able to put up a fight against him.

That's about where I have Fat Boo, myself. It also seems to fit with what the meter for reviving him showed us, that Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power restored "almost half" of Boo's power. If SSj2 Goku and Vegeta are about half of Boo's strength, then SSj2 Gohan would be appropriately lagging behind them at somewhere between that and one third.

I don't think that the meter really indicates anything, but I do have Fat Buu roughly twice as strong as SS2 Gohan anyway. I can make him exactly twice as strong, which would put him nearly equal to Gotenks and fit with Gotenks apparently being a "nasty gamble" with Fat Buu (or simply have Gotenks make next to no gains due to his 1 WEEK in the ROSAT), but I don't think that's necessary.

Yea if Goku, Vegeta and Gohan all combine to fight Fat Buu it would be pointless. Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost, there is plenty of room to make that all work. The minimum I would make Fat Buu is double the Super Saiyan 2's and half of Ssj3 Goku.

I disagree. His biggest feat was beating Vegeta, and he doesn't really have to be all that much stronger than that. The absolute highest I would put him is 15,000,000,000, and honestly that seems like overrating him.

[Saiga]

Didn't you have Mr Boo as being somewhat close to Pure Boo, though? Do you think Mr Boo is stronger than Fat Boo?

[RandomGuy96]

Yes. Way stronger. Or at least stronger than the power Fat Buu was allowed to use while still remaining Fat Buu. Pure Evil Buu is also shown to be stronger than Pure Buu (he does much better against Good Buu), so logically he'd be stronger than Fat Buu as well, so I don't see the problem here. Also, Fat Buu got dominated by a not-really-trying SS3 Goku and actually got hurt by attacks from Majin Vegeta while Good Buu went toe to toe with Pure Buu, indicating he's at least as strong.

Mr.Buu- 36,000,000,000
Kid Buu- 45,000,000,000
Evil Buu- 64,000,000,000
Super Buu- 100,000,000,000

[Draken]

Fat Buu's insane regeneration and infinite stamina (i.e. no wearing him down, no sneak punches, very limited ki attack options... all of which make fighting him as a team very impractical) may have something to do with that. Overall he seemed way closer to the SS2 tier than the SS3 tier, IMO, as Vegeta was able to put up a fight against him.

That's because Fat Buu was happy while fighting Vegeta. The moment he got mad Vegeta got ass-stomped into suiciding. Kaboom's placement is reasonable.

[RandomGuy96]

Never said it wasn't reasonable. I just don't think that it's necessary. Then again I don't think Kaboom follows SS Gotenks > Fat Buu anyway, so it's a moot point.

[Saiga]

Ah, I see. Well, to me it seems a little strange that Mr Boo would be stronger than Fat Boo. I can see Pure Evil Boo being that strong because none of his share of the power is restrained by the Kaioshin's influence, but I think that Mr Boo would still be restrained. Unless you think that the restraint from the Kaioshin was broken before the split occurred, which does make sense.



Some people probably think it's a bad thing that Boo's so difficult to figure out. I think it's kind of cool, actually.

[RandomGuy96]

Ditto. Though sometimes it's just a liiiiiitle needless in the confusion (the whole Buff Buu sequence).

Anyway, if anything the issue is that Good Buu would logically be too weak. If he was both Kaioshin in him, and only one Kaioshin is the difference between Super Buu and Kid Buu, and Super is implied to have a multi-fold advantage over his original self, then both Kaioshin together, fused in one being, should stomp Pure Buu hard. So I just kind of ignore that bit of confusion and just go with this: when Buu split, his anger and evil nature took over, letting him unleash all of his power (i.e., the power of Super Buu). Both of his halves took from the pool of Super Buu's power, and since, Kaioshin influence aside, Buu is pure evil, his evil influence was stronger than his good influence, letting the evil half take a larger portion of the power, even though the power itself is seemingly mostly made up of "good ki". In short: yeah, the restraint was broken when Buu got pissed.

That still doesn't explain Super Buu - Good Buu = Kid Buu, but I don't think we'll ever have an answer to that one.

[Saiga]

Ditto. Though sometimes it's just a liiiiiitle needless in the confusion (the whole Buff Buu sequence).

Heh, yeah. That's probably the one part I don't like.

[RandomGuy96]

Anyway, Fat Buu insanity aside, what do you think about the idea of Super Buu just being way weaker than Gotenks? It seems to fit just about everything except for Buu's later statement that he was the absolute strongest until Gohan arrived. I mean that fight seemed extremely one sided, even after Piccolo said that Buu would use his full effort (and Buu certainly LOOKED extremely pissed off), and Gohan had no problems with letting SS3 Gotenks finish off Buu.

[Saiga]

Anyway, Fat Buu insanity aside, what do you think about the idea of Super Buu just being way weaker than Gotenks? It seems to fit just about everything except for Buu's later statement that he was the absolute strongest until Gohan arrived. I mean that fight seemed extremely one sided, even after Piccolo said that Buu would use his full effort (and Buu certainly LOOKED extremely pissed off), and Gohan had no problems with letting SS3 Gotenks finish off Buu.

I'm planning on going through my VizBig later to re-read the fight, so I'll get back to you after that.

EDIT: Okay, so I've read the fight, and I have to say that I don't think Gotenks is much stronger. The dialogue implies that they're close, and I think the battle does the same. Boo was barely damaged by the Volleyball + Die Die Missile, which I don't think would be the case if he was significantly weaker. Gotenks only layed the smackdown on him after it was noted that Boo was damaged mentally by Gotenks being on par with him, which I think was the cause of the fight becoming one-sided from that point on.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't take Buu bouncing back from attacks as an indication of strength, really, because of what Buu is. I mostly look at how the fight went; Buu could bounce back, yes, but he was still pretty much helpless. He only landed two hits on Gotenks (unless you count the throw), and only because Gotenks was off guard in the first case and ran right into a likely amplified attack in the second case. He proceeded to do a psuedo-tank of the attack and respond with a more powerful mouth blast. Let's not forget that Gotenks was about to kill Buu, which implies quite a difference in power considering the plethora of advantages Buu has going for him.

Mental damage or no, I'd expect him to at least be able to land a punch in the melee (especially considering how unskilled Gotenks is) if they were close in power, or do more damage with his mouth blast. Freeza was mentally damaged by someone being on par with him and he still could at least land hits on Goku; even Recoome vs Vegeta never got that one sided. Mr.Buu vs Pure Buu looked about as close as this fight IMO...

I'm not saying that he absolutely has to be like 70% of Gotenks, but if they were equals, like I often see them pegged at, I would think that the fight would look more even, and numerous characters wouldn't state/imply that Gotenks is at least moderately stronger.

[Saiga]

I wouldn't chalk Boo tanking Gotenks' attacks up to his nature, he doesn't seem to have used regeneration or anything or the quotes wouldn't really make sense. And his mouth blast looked just as powerful as Gotenks' to me, the holes they created from shouting were also the same size. Gotenks beatdown on Boo just seems more like Goku's Meteor Combination than a result of being way stronger.

[Mjb1985]

I generally like to place Fat Buu around 75% of Goku and Kid Buu. I go with


Goku / Kid Buu > Fat Buu = Good Buu ( Post Kid Buu ) > Evil Buu > Good Buu

[RandomGuy96]

I wouldn't chalk Boo tanking Gotenks' attacks up to his nature, he doesn't seem to have used regeneration or anything or the quotes wouldn't really make sense. And his mouth blast looked just as powerful as Gotenks' to me, the holes they created from shouting were also the same size. Gotenks beatdown on Boo just seems more like Goku's Meteor Combination than a result of being way stronger.

Well, agree to disagree then. I find that whole fight extremely odd if Gotenks isn't at least a little (like 10%) stronger.

I generally like to place Fat Buu around 75% of Goku and Kid Buu. I go with


Goku / Kid Buu > Fat Buu = Good Buu ( Post Kid Buu ) > Evil Buu > Good Buu

As I said, I don't find that necessary, and go with:

SS3 Gotenks > Buff Buu > Super Buu >> South Kaioshin = Evil Buu > Kid Buu > SS3 Goku > Good Buu > SS Gotenks > Fat Buu

Yeah, I think Fat Buu is really weak (again, his best feat is stomping Vegeta, and his best statement is that Goku and Vegeta together most likely wouldn't be able to beat him together as SS2s, so he doesn't have to be all that strong), and Good Buu and Evil Buu are both beasts. Evil Buu was shown to be stronger than Kid Buu and Good Buu actually held his own against Kid Buu. I also see South Kaioshin as extremely powerful because of the implications Kibito Kai made about him (as well as the statements and implications that the Kaioshin in general are very powerful), and because I've seen no reason that he'd be an exception to the A + B absorption method.

[dbzfan7]

How much of an increase did Super Boo get when he regressed to Buff Boo? I don't think it was gigantic, but it was noticeable.

For the topic above I have Gotenks Stronger the Super Boo, but not by much as Super Boo wanted to absorb them after he felt Gohan's ki. He also doesn't consider the boys as a problem and openly admits that Gohan is the only one who truly threatens him. This can however be taken as Super Boo using trickery to overcome Gotenks, or he just doesn't want to admit a kid is stronger then him. It seems to me that if Super Boo can't kill Gotenks he could definitely outlast him. So either way he believes he would beat Gotenks in the end.