Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mjb1985]

To be fair, when the author has trouble remembering who the character married and then to being basically force fed the Kuririn stuff, it's somewhat questionable.

For example, if they were talking about Tenshinhan and the author snuck that in there, I think the author might agree with that too.

I mean, forgetting that 18 married Kuririn? What's up with that man, he is so blank sometimes on something he worked so hard on. I call troll man, it's pretty impossible to forget such things imo.

Anyway, I think people take this as a direct AT said Kuririn is superior to Tenshinhan, which I do not take it as.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's a direct quote by the author that contradicts nothing in the manga. There is no reason not to accept it.
And it doesn't really look like he forgot that 18 was Krillin's wife. 18's name is mentioned, and Toryama is like "Ah yes. She marries Krillin."

[Mjb1985]

With an author so forgetful I can see why people aren't as quick to take that line of thinking. If AT was always spot on and remembered everything about his story like you would expect, I would think the amount of doubters would dwindle severely. Not saying that I agree with the opposition, just understanding where they are coming from.

[RandomGuy96]

Nothing except baseless speculation and conjecture puts Tien anywhere near Krillin.

People who still think that remind me of some of the guys on Neoseeker, who insist that their power placements are better and more accurate than the Daiz's or even Toriyama's. It just pisses me off a bit because it comes off as monumentally arrogant.

I do think that the strength of the humans in the android arc is a legitimate and debatable subject though. They're implied to be above the base saiyans, as insane as that sounds.

[dbzfan7]

Nothing except baseless speculation and conjecture puts Tenshinhan anywhere near Krillin.

People who still think that remind me of some of the guys on Neoseeker, who insist that their power placements are better and more accurate than the Daiz's or even Toriyama's. It just pisses me off a bit because it comes off as monumentally arrogant.

I totally agree. I think Tenshinhan is cooler than Krillin, but he didn't really do anything to surpass Krillin after his power up lead, or even have a sparring partner that could help. Krillin had 18 to help him get into shape.

[Mjb1985]

I would disagree with that. The humans should be well below the Base Saiyans at all times.

[Kamiccolo9]

I do think that the strength of the humans in the android arc is a legitimate and debatable subject though. They're implied to be above the base saiyans, as insane as that sounds.

Maybe Gohan, pre-ROSAT. Not Goku and Vegeta at any time in the arc, unless you're including half-dead Goku.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Krillin doesn't even surpass Freeza's first form as far as I'm concerned. He's done nothing to make me think he has made such progress.

[dbzfan7]

Krillin doesn't even surpass Freeza's first form as far as I'm concerned. He's done nothing to make me think he has made such progress.

I'm not sure if he surpassed Ginyu.

[Kamiccolo9]

Krillin doesn't even surpass Freeza's first form as far as I'm concerned. He's done nothing to make me think he has made such progress.

I'm not sure if he surpassed Ginyu.

Same. He's 75,000 at the end of the Freeza Arc, then he spends 3 years training by himself. I just don't see any big gains from this. He's not Piccolo

[RandomGuy96]

I would disagree with that. The humans should be well below the Base Saiyans at all times.

Maybe Gohan, pre-ROSAT. Not Goku and Vegeta at any time in the arc, unless you're including half-dead Goku.

Krillin doesn't even surpass Freeza's first form as far as I'm concerned. He's done nothing to make me think he has made such progress.

I agree, but there's some weird implications going on here:

*Piccolo implies that he's in the hundreds of thousands from a mere 7 days of training on King Kai's planet when he rushes off to fight Freeza after sensing him, expecting not to get one-shotted. At the very least he went from 3,500 to a level that could impress someone at 42,000 in those 7 days, and should be faaaaaar stronger than he was on Earth to even think about taking on Freeza when he knows himself (Earth) < Nappa << Vegeta < Dodoria < Vegeta (first zenkai) < Monster Zarbon = Vegeta (second zenkai) < Recoome < Captain Ginyu < first form Freeza. The Earthlings were there for years...
*20 mistakes Yamcha for Goku with his scouter thing, which judging by the calculations Gero should've done would make Yamcha pretty strong (I'm assuming he thought that Goku would progress similarly to the way he did from Raditz to Vegeta).
*The Earthlings actually bother to train and show up to fight the androids, which would obviously be pointless if they had no hope of helping at all.
*Gero says that he'll be able to "obtain a large amount of energy" from Yamcha, which is notable as Gero/20 is obviously in the tens of millions. Again, Yamcha would have to be in the millions for his power to have any effect at all.
*Yamcha says that he doesn't want to go to fight #20 and #19 because he was helpless to resist when #20 kicked his ass. Notably, he says: “Fra-frankly I don’t want to go…Sorry…Those guys…nearly killed me and I was helpless to resist…”. Yet he still showed up when he didn't know quite how powerful the androids were. Wouldn't that imply that he thought he wouldn't be helpless?
* Yamcha concludes that he's the least useful person of the group, implying that Krillin and Tien actually are useful in some way, and Tien does the same thing when he says that he left Chiaotzu behind on account of him being too weak (Goku agrees).
*Tien says that Goku's Super Saiyan power is "in an entirely different dimension... to different..." implying that base Goku wasn't in an entirely different dimension.
*Later, Gero concludes that if he were to absorb Piccolo's power + the Earthlings, it should put up him above the weakened Vegeta. The Earthlings would have to be in the millions for him to even consider their energy worth taking.
*Tien actually bothers to attack 17, and Trunks later says that the androids defeated him, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tien at the same time while talking about how impressive they are, as if defeating the latter actually means something- obviously that's false if Ginyu can do it.

These are all easily explainable of course, and don't make any sense really, but the implications still make me wonder...

I'm not sure if he surpassed Ginyu.

I think he surpassed Ginyu at the very least. If he didn't then training for three years didn't even double him, and the power up that kept multiplying him just randomly stopped. I find both of these things ridiculous.

Here's another quote I found interesting:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

Piccolo basically says here that the energy #20 stole from him doesn't matter because he can amplify it. What is this referring to? It's obviously not referring to Piccolo just suppressing himself. It sounds a lot like kaio-ken to me...

[dbzfan7]

I think he surpassed Ginyu at the very least. If he didn't then training for three years didn't even double him, and the power up that kept multiplying him just randomly stopped. I find both of these things ridiculous.

Here's another quote I found interesting:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

Piccolo basically says here that the energy #20 stole from him doesn't matter because he can amplify it. What is this referring to? It's obviously not referring to Piccolo just suppressing himself. It sounds a lot like kaio-ken to me...

It's possible Krillin surpassed Ginyu. But I don't know what training he did. Krillin is really the only wild card for me when it comes to power as the power up variable could go anywhere. Though I stand by no human surpassing first form Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

I would at least peg Krillin around first form Freeza. No particular reason, I just like being generous to the guy and his magical power up.

The implications in the android arc still interest and confuse me. In particular, 20's and Tien's quotes. I'm going to make a separate thread about this.

[dbzfan7]

I would at least peg Krillin around first form Freeza. No particular reason, I just like being generous to the guy and his magical power up.

The implications in the android arc still interest and confuse me. In particular, 20's and Tenshinhan's quotes. I'm going to make a separate thread about this.

I'm not sure how much they could get from mountain training. I can't see mountain training giving any good increases to the humans. I also believe in the theory that training in a certain way becomes obsolete after sometime. For example training in 10x gravity for Goku won't get him much gains after he mastered that gravity level, going back to that would be pointless unless he had a sparring partner (which is what he had in the ROSAT). So unless Tenshinhan or Krillin did something that drastically changed their training regiment, I can't see them getting much of an increase.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have Krillin over 2x Captain Ginyu at his best.

[dbzfan7]

I have Krillin over 2x Captain Ginyu at his best.

I can live with that. I just don't see any of them beating Freeza in anyway.

[Saiga]

I have no idea for the humans. Zephyr made a pretty good argument for the humans (sans Kuririn, who I shall refer to as the super human from now on to distinguish) only ever reaching the Dodoria-Zarbon mark, and I'm starting to lean towards making the humans weaker than I previously thought.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm a minimalist and I still think that's too excessive- they'd have to get ridiculously tiny gains from training with King Kai. Much smaller than the ones Goku got, which wouldn't make any sense, since they were there longer and asked for more intense training. After all, look at what happened when the asked for more intense training from Kami.

Anyway, what do you think of these android arc implications? They don't make much sense but they're there. Gero considering Yamcha a big source of energy and Tien only saying that a Super Saiyan was in a different dimension is particularly telling, as is the hazy subject of Piccolo's gains in the seven days on King Kai's planet.

Oh, and as an aside, IIRC you have SS Gotenks weaker than Fat Buu. Why is that?

[Saiga]

I don't think they'd be that tiny. That's still around 10x a gain from being there than 1 full year. And I think after a certain point they'd gain power much slower even on Kaio's planet.

The Android arc implications don't seem to be relevant. Gero is proven completely wrong about his calculations when the amount he stole from Piccolo ends up only being a pitiful amount. I like the theory someone once put forward where Gero's PL reader can only read so high, and instead of exploding like a scouter it just displays the highest level it can read. As for Tenshinhan saying SS Goku is in a different dimension, that depends entirely on what he thinks a different dimension is. Even if Goku is 100,000 times stronger in base, someone like Ten might just think that it takes a BP of 1,000,000 to be in that different dimension. I also don't think the base Saiyans are at full power at all times anyway, so Tenshinhan wouldn't see base Goku's full power. I don't think much of Piccolo's Kaio planet gains either, to me all Piccolo has to be is above 3,000 for Nail's comment to make sense. It wouldn't be the first time a much stronger person has praised a weaker one.

And I have Gotenks below Fat Boo because Daizenshuu 7 says he surpassed Vegeta during his RoSaT training. I interpret that as his Super Saiyan < Veggie's Super Saiyan 2 prior to the RoSaT training. I also don't think the fusion dance has a consistent multiplier and so Goku's claims aren't valid without proof, of which we are given none.

[Mjb1985]

I think the humans can be pretty strong.

I personally have Kuririn rated at 200,000 against Freeza.

In the Androids Saga I think the humans combined can be around Goku. So I think they can be very strong in terms of being in the millions.