Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[UpFromTheSkies]

At least in my case, I don't like the Kikuchi score because of nostalgia. Because I watched the Ocean dub first, right before I dived headfirst into the uncut Japanese version. I just felt that the Japanese music fit the tone of the series better on the whole, and sounded better due to much better production values. Of course, I'm a guy who analyzes all aspects of his entertainment while consuming it. Most people don't do this.

I see. Cool. I was, admittedly, exposed to the Faulconer score first, but only through the game "Legacy of Goku 2", and only as a teenager, because when you're a young impressionable child, whose obviously sneaking in sessions of DBZ when your parents forbid it out of hearsay, and the episode they finally actually SEE happens to have THIS on screen...



...Well...let's just say they weren't too open to the idea of letting me watch it ! But anyways, I was only like, 5 when watching DBZ on TV, so it wasn't until Legacy of Goku 2 that I could actually appreciate the music. That's why I count it as the first time being exposed to it.

It could have been much worse...

[Ringworm128]

Much MUCH worse!

[Ryuji-Otogi]

Much MUCH worse!

[hleV]

Oh you guys...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Wait, where is that from again?

[ABED]

So, the fact that many people prefer the "reversioned" product implies that, yes, FUNimation's changes, however just or unjust they may have been, did cause some (perhaps a lot) of people to think of the show more favorably than they otherwise might have.

It's the net, you can find fans of pretty much anything regardless of quality. The question is how big that audience would've been. There are those that will claim the in house actors during season 3 were better than the seasoned Ocean cast. That's objectively wrong, and not even the in house actors would agree. There no accounting for taste. Enjoy what you enjoy, but call a spade a spade. It got popular in spite of its horrid translation, and DBZ's popularity is unrivaled. Perhaps someone who has greater knowledge of Saint Seiya and One Piece could argue the point better but that seems like apples and oranges.

But you know there's a good number of people who legitimately love the dub score despite being hardcore fans, right? Like me? I mean, I know that we're a vocal minority, and I really don't mean to be a pill, but I find it incredibly frustrating when people make statements about the dub score like this. Putting it the way you said it, to me at least, implies that I'm less of a fan for liking the dub score better than Kikuchi, or that I have no taste in music.

You can't miss what was never there.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Wait, where is that from again?

It's from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, if I'm not mistaken.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Wait, where is that from again?

It's from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Goku damaged Piccolo's arm, so he ripped it off and grew a new one.

[90sDBZ]

Well I honestly wouldn't call Funi's Z dub a failure in any sense except for failing to please people who had already seen the Japanese version. People who had illegally watched subbed DBZ weren't Funi's target audience to begin with and Funi had no obligation to try and please them at that point.

I don't see why fans of the Japanese version have to begrudge dub fans of their preferred version. The fact that Funi's dub exists doesn't change the fact that the Japanese version still exists and always has. If you want a version that's true to the original then go watch the original and don't bother with the dub. At the end of the day no dub will ever be as close to the original as the original itself so why bother getting upset about it at all. I'd be willing to bet that no matter how close the dub had been to the original purists would still have found a reason to hate it or would at least still watch the Japanese version over it in the long run. And Funi have always included the Japanese version in their releases so I really don't see the problem.

I actually find it saddening when people say stuff like they wish Funi's dub had never existed or had been drastically different to how it is. Believe it or not but that dub along with Faulconer's music actually means a lot to many people. And many who have seen plenty of both versions, myself included, genuinely prefer Funi's dub not just from nostalgia but from actual objective preference, even with the mediocre acting in Season 3 which they made up for later on in Z imo.

In the UK we had Dragonball and GT air in Blue Water dub with Japanese music and scripts that were pretty damn close to the original yet they didn't even come close to the popularity of Z which had dub music and altered scripts.

I actually very much enjoy Dragonball with Kikuchi's music and wouldn't want to watch it any other way and have had plenty of exploitation to it but simply don't like it as much in Z. A while ago I watched movie 12 in both English and Japanese. The Japanese version had Kikuchi and bored me to tears while the dub had Nathan Jonson's score and made the movie feel exciting and actually drew me in rather than put me asleep. If I could actually love Kikuchi's score in DB but be bored by it in Z then there's every chance others would have been bored by it too had Funi used it. You'll probably disagree but I feel that while Kikuchi's DB score has aged very well his Z score aged badly. And many others seem to think that too. I also much prefer GT with Japanese music to Mark Menza's music so that shows I'm not just siding with dub music in Z for the sake of it.

An example I thought of is the Garlic Jr saga. Japanese version fans seem to find it boring and dislike it while a lot of dub fans actually enjoy it. That is a prime example of a time were Funi improved the series, largely because of Faulconer's music making it feel like another exciting event rather than just pointless filler like Kikuchi made it feel.

Another example is Tree of Might. In the Japanese version there is a notable lack of music playing which makes the film feel dead and makes it drag on while once again Nathan Jonson's adds excitement to it. And from what I've seen online the TV Ocean version also improves the movie with Shuki Levy's score.

I honestly feel that fans of the Japanese version can be just as blinded by nostalgia as dub fans. They think their version is perfect and instantly hate a different creative approach just as dub fans instantly hate Kai for being different. I'll even admit that as a kid hearing "Krillin's in da hooouuusssseee!!" got me more excited to see the next episode. I certainly prefer it to the generic narration the Japanese version has. And even if it was cheesy Dragonball has always had cheesy comedy in it and has never taken itself too seriously so it's not like it's completely out of line with the comedy of the show.

[VegettoEX]

Another example is Tree of Might. In the Japanese version there is a notable lack of music playing which makes the film feel dead and makes it drag on while once again Nathan Jonson's adds excitement to it. And from what I've seen online the TV Ocean version also improves the movie with Shuki Levy's score.

The DBZ Movie 3 score is haunting and the silence (particularly the scene right before Goku and Tullece fire at each other) is literally one of the only edge-of-your-seat moments I can think of.

Brilliant through and through.

[ABED]

I don't hate dubs as such, I always wanted an excellent dub. It would've provided another entertaining option, but as it stands, DBZ's dub is unlistenable to me and many others. I'm happy that the Japanese version is an option but it wasn't always. It wasn't until around 2000. I can't fathom why anyone would prefer horrible sounding impressions with awful dialog beyond the fact that it's what they grew up with. And you can't compare the reactions people had to the two dubs when the less accurate one came first. Why in the world would a second version of the show reach the heights of the version that came before? People have more or less seen it already.

"That is a prime example of a time were Funi improved the series"

Really? "Belly blast", "Spice Boys", "Humphry Bogart impression" are improvements? Last I checked, the Garlic Jr. episodes are reviled here as well. How is the season 3 dub objectively better to the original? the spiced up lines that you claim replace the "generic" dialog completely miss the mark about the tone and style of the show. The show is full of humor and great lines, it didn't need a "punch up". I doubt FUNi was in danger of losing any viewers if they hadn't had a terrible narrator exclaim "Krillin's in da house!"

even if it was cheesy Dragonball has always had cheesy comedy in it and has never taken itself too seriously so it's not like it's completely out of line with the comedy of the show.

No one said it wasn't cheesy, but Toriyama's comedy isn't "Mondo cool" or whatever. FUNi's "writers" didn't get his style of comedy. It didn't mesh with the show. Just because Toriyama injects Dragon Ball with humor doesn't mean any humor is fine. He has his own brand of humor which FUNi never understood. Goku would never talk about the tournament announcer's suit. You claim sub fans can be just as blinded by nostalgia, and while I'm sure there are some, more often than not, I've seen sub fans have a better understanding of the show and can articulate their opinions far better than dub fans.

This is all conjecture so I don't think anyone can prove one way or another which version would've been more successful, but I can say that a product like Kai, and the Japnese original were far closer to the source material, especially in spirit, and that alone is why I believe the dub should've never been foisted upon us. It doesn't capture the spirit of Toriyama's story. The dub bares a passing resemblence, but it's not the show. Feel free to like it, but the fact that it's not what the show should be is reason enough that it shouldn't exist. I and I'm sure many others could've dealt with green actors if everything else, such as the directing and dialog, had shown us that they understood the show.

[Looneygamemaster]

Really? "Belly blast", "Spice Boys", "Humphry Bogart impression" are improvements? Last I checked, the Garlic Jr. episodes are reviled here as well. How is the season 3 dub objectively better to the original?

As I said in an earlier post, it's definitely not objectively better. But the Garlic Jr. arc is so mind-numbingly boring that Funimation's stupid script actually makes it more entertaining.

At least, it does to me.

[ABED]

Really? "Belly blast", "Spice Boys", "Humphry Bogart impression" are improvements? Last I checked, the Garlic Jr. episodes are reviled here as well. How is the season 3 dub objectively better to the original?

As I said in an earlier post, it's definitely not objectively better. But the Garlic Jr. arc is so mind-numbingly boring that Funimation's stupid script actually makes it more entertaining.

At least, it does to me.

I'm glad you added the "to me".

I have to add that in art there's such a thing as integration. The dub is so disjointed in terms of matching the music, performances, and dialog to the animation.

[90sDBZ]

Well fair enough, by now we've all established that the dub is overall very different from the original in tone and style. But I still stand by my belief that just because something isn't true to its source material that it's automatically bad. I think it's best just to think of it as 2 different shows. I personally like both but prefer the dub version. It took a different creative approach that I can honestly say I enjoy more. You could say the Funi dub is like marmite. You either love it or hate it and I love it and could never call it bad. But the same stands for the Japanese version which is also loved and hated by many.

And it's not just nostalgia. I watched Z on Toonami UK and mostly grew up with the Westwood dub and didn't see the Funi dub in full until much later along with the Japanese version but even growing up with the Westwood dub couldn't make me want to ever watch it again because of how objectively bad I find it to be. I just love the Funi dub especially with the Faulconer score.

In the long run we have our dub and you guys still got to have the Kai dub so ultimately everybody's a winner.

[ABED]

Well fair enough, by now we've all established that the dub is overall very different from the original in tone and style. But I still stand by my belief that just because something isn't true to its source material that it's automatically bad. I think it's best just to think of it as 2 different shows. I personally like both but prefer the dub version. It took a different creative approach that I can honestly say I enjoy more. You could say the Funi dub is like marmite. You either love it or hate it and I love it and could never call it bad. But the same stands for the Japanese version which is also loved and hated by many.

And it's not just nostalgia. I watched Z on Toonami UK and mostly grew up with the Westwood dub and didn't see the Funi dub in full until much later along with the Japanese version but even growing up with the Westwood dub couldn't make me want to ever watch it again because of how objectively bad I find it to be. I just love the Funi dub especially with the Faulconer score.

In the long run we have our dub and you guys still got to have the Kai dub so ultimately everybody's a winner.

I don't think it's automatically bad, but this isn't like changing American comics. Dragon Ball is a story with a beginning middle and end. There shouldn't be two different shows. There should be one - Dragon Ball. The dub is bad in many respects because its disjointed, and doesn't cohere with the artwork, or even itself. DBZ has its share of plot holes, but FUNi didn't have to add more. Crane Hermit wasn't on the outs with Tao Pai Pai, Dr. Gero wasn't the leader of the Red Ribbon Army, Tao was never a general, Toma is the name of Bardock's comrade, not Tora. They miss the naming scheme. Goku doesn't give a crap about suits. I can go on and on about how they miss the point. Kuririn didn't think "why didn't I become a shoe salesman" he thought about not dating or getting married, which was a part of his character from the beginning. The show was created in the 80s, so why would it matter if the music sounded dated? Is the animation any more contemporary? The show doesn't scream the need for a narrator that sounds like he's at a monster truck ralley. Dragon Ball began with a "once upon a time..." style narration.

[Attitudefan]

I saw it when I was 3-4 years old, and what got me hooked was EVERYTHING! One thing I loved though, was ROCK THE DRAGON. Yeah, that helped me like it for sure.

However, I'm sure I would have liked it despite that cause I saw other shows that weren't as "cool" as DBZ, such as Sailor Moon.

[ABED]

I should add that if you think FUNi understood DBZ by and large, I say look no further than Freeza. His posture alone should give a clear indication that the dub writers didn't understand the character at all.

[Attitudefan]

I should add that if you think FUNi understood DBZ by and large, I say look no further than Freeza. His posture alone should give a clear indication that the dub writers didn't understand the character at all.

Originally, they were going for a Snake like voice. Linda Young was supposed to be that kind of voice. As we can see, it did not turn out to their expectations. For the longest time, I thought Freeza was a female, but I was under 10 at the time.

[penguintruth]

I agree that, in a sense, the water's already been spilt, the genie's already out of the bottle, the Funimaion dub exists as it does and there's nothing you can do about that. The people who are already fans of that version are not likely to see DBZ as anything but what they grew up watching. That's their vision of the story, that's DBZ to them.

But in another sense, it isn't DBZ. I'm begrudging you that version because it has little to do with DBZ. It's another show, it's made up of DBZ, it has the footage of DBZ, it often comes packaged with DBZ, but it isn't DBZ. You can't have a dub that differs so greatly from the original product on such a level that entire scenes are just complete washes in terms of accuracy, that divides the discussion of the show so much between what was actually said and what some two-bit "writer" in Fort Worth made up out of what I can only assume is a drug-induced haze, and still say, "Well, they're basically the same show."

No. It's nonsense. You can't tell me Robotech is the same as Macross, you can't tell me that the 4Kids dub of One Piece is the same as One Piece, and you can't tell me the smug, self-centered, talentless hacks at Funimation did DBZ any justice at all with that dub. It defames the show by supporting that version. It vandalizes it.

An English dub of an anime has to represent that show for the English-speaking audience (or just the people who don't read subtitles). It's the ambassador of that show to a whole new audience. It has to do the show justice or what it's representing fails to take hold in any meaningful fashion. I don't care if it's a silly action show about weird guys punching holes in each other. I feel this way about every anime. Even if it's a bad show, it needs to be represented properly or not at all.

But I'm not slapping DVDs out of people's hands if they don't pledge to watch the Japanese version. Watch whatever version you want. I just get sick of seeing DBZ misrepresented. Is it essentially a straight forward action program without a lot of nuance? Of course. But it doesn't need to be even dumber.

[Ajay]

An English dub of an anime has to represent that show for the English-speaking audience (or just the people who don't read subtitles). It's the ambassador of that show to a whole new audience. It has to do the show justice or what it's representing fails to take hold in any meaningful fashion. I don't care if it's a silly action show about weird guys punching holes in each other. I feel this way about every anime. Even if it's a bad show, it needs to be represented properly or not at all.

I almost want to put that in my signature. Praise it sista.

I have absolutely no problems with english dubs - as long as they're not just accurate translation-wise but also have voice acting of a quality that is equivalent to the Japanese counterpart.