Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Sorry, I meant Initial Fatty < SS2 Gohan and Dabura. Silly me.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, I revised my power levels on page 120, at least for the Buu Saga, based on the things I've said the last few pages. How does this look?

BUU SAGA

Tournament

Goku- 102,500,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 5,125,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 41,000,000,000
---Suppressed (vs Fat Buu)- 16,000,000,000

Vegeta- 86,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,300,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,600,000,000

Gohan- 70,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 3,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 7,000,000,000

Eastern Supreme Kai- 3,200,000,000

Piccolo- 2,300,000,000

Trunks- 16,400,000
--Super Saiyan- 820,000,000

Goten- 15,500,000
--Super Saiyan- 775,000,000

Kibito- 64,000,000

Gotenks (pre-ROSAT)- 310,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 15,500,000,000

Babidi's Henchmen

Dabura- 6,000,000,000
Yakon- 90,000,000
Pui Pui- 800,000
Yamu- 36
Spovovitch- 31


The Many Forms Of Buu

Vegetto- 20,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,012,500,000,000
Ultimate Gohan- 180,000,000,000
Gotenks (post-ROSAT)- 340,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 17,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 34,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 136,000,000,000
Goku- 102,500,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 5,125,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 41,000,000,000
Vegeta- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 5,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,000,000,000
---Suicide Attack- 40,000,000,000
Kibito Kai- 9,600,000,000
Goten- 17,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 850,000,000
Trunks- 17,000,000
--Super Saiyan 850,000,000

Super Buu-
--Base- 100,000,000,000 (Slightly Restrained Pure Buu + South Kaioshin)
---Mouth Blast- 140,000,000,000
--Buuccolo/Super Duper Buu- 104,000,000,000 (Slightly Restrained Pure Buu + South Kaioshin + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten)
--Buuoshin/Mega Buu- 110,000,000,000 (Pure Buu + South Kaioshin)
--Buutenks/Ultra Buu- 238,000,000,000 (Slightly Restrained Pure Buu + South Kaioshin + Gotenks + Piccolo)
--Buuhan/Ultimate Buu- 284,000,000,000 (Slightly Restrained Pure Buu + Gohan + South Kaioshin + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten)
Kid/Pure Buu- 45,000,000,000
Fat Buu- 14,000,000,000 (docile, true power locked)
Evil Buu- 64,000,000,000 (Part of Super Buu)
Good Buu- 36,000,000,000 (Other part of Super Buu)

Southern Supreme Kai- 65,000,000,000
Grand Supreme Kai- 31,000,000,000
Western Supreme Kai- 7,000,000,00
Northern Supreme Kai- 5,000,000,000
Eastern Supreme Kai- 3,200,000,000
Old Kai- 30,000,000

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Kamiccolo9]

Just glancing over, it seems ok to me, given what you've been saying on the last few pages.
What are you basing your levels of the Kaioshins on?

On a side note, I've been considering placing Kaioshin above SSJ Gohan, based on his performance against Buu. Still not sure yet though.

[RandomGuy96]

The levels for Buu. I see no reason to doubt that South Kaioshin was a simple A + B absorption, so he's damn strong, but not strong enough to disintegrate Buu to the point of no return in one hit. I imagine he underestimated Buu's regeneration and got absorbed off guard. It fits the heavy implications we were given about him from Kibito Kai.

Fat Buu's power is equivalent to Kid Buu's power minus Dai Kaioshin's power, with South Kaioshin's power being sealed away and eventually reawakened with the birth of Super Buu.

North and West just have levels high enough to make East look like trash, as he was stated to be a weakling for a Kaioshin by Old Kai. Kibito also heavily implied that SS2 Gohan's power wouldn't be impressive if he were a Kaioshin. East is in turn a lot stronger than Piccolo. Maybe the gap should be bigger between them, I don't know.

He might be, though that would make his fear of Dabura rather suspect, unless you believe Gohan was an SS2 during that fight. I do, obviously. I believe he was a SS2 for the whole arc, or else a lot of things don't make any sense.

[Kamiccolo9]

He might be, though that would make his fear of Dabura rather suspect, unless you believe Gohan was an SS2 during that fight. I do, obviously. I believe he was a SS2 for the whole arc, or else a lot of things don't make any sense.

I'm on the fence about it. I agree that everything would make a lot more sense if he was.

[RandomGuy96]

The Daiz says that he was during the fight against Dabura, so really, there should be no reason that shouldn't extend to the rest of the saga, lest it make no sense. And him being a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura also makes the most sense. I mean if he wasn't, then Kaioshin fanboyed over someone who was half the strength of someone he sensed earlier, Goku told Gohan to get a rage boost rather than just transform like he did earlier, no one commented on Gohan's inability to transform for no reason, the statement about Dabura's power in the Daiz doesn't work, and someone who was both compared to Cell and stronger than expected was actually only as strong as a suppressed version of Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Daiz says that he was during the fight against Dabura, so really, there should be no reason that shouldn't extend to the rest of the saga, lest it make no sense. And him being a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura also makes the most sense. I mean if he wasn't, then Kaioshin fanboyed over someone who was half the strength of someone he sensed earlier, Goku told Gohan to get a rage boost rather than just transform like he did earlier, no one commented on Gohan's inability to transform for no reason, the statement about Dabura's power in the Daiz doesn't work, and someone who was both compared to Cell and stronger than expected was actually only as strong as a suppressed version of Cell.

Yeah. I'm about to just assume this is a case of Torama's editor not paying attention, and just agree with Gohan being meant to be a SSJ2. Everything fits so much better that way.

[Saiga]

No, I don't think it's possible to reliably estimate based on two completely different people using the technique. Especially when slight variations in the technique can produce incredibly different results. And Goku's not working with number estimates, but feelings of power. I don't put much stock into it.

You still have the issue of Piccolo sensing both Majin Vegeta and pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and concluding that only one of them had a chance against Dai Kaioshin Buu... and I don't wanna hear how being involved in a gag automatically makes everything he says null and void, as his line was retconned anyway, not to mention contradicted on the page, which is not the case here.

I'm not going to discount it just because it's a gag. Piccolo overrates Gotenks. There's evidence in the manga that ki can't be properly measured when someone isn't fighting anyway. And the line isn't retconned, because what Piccolo said just didn't apply to that brief moment.

I don't consider Boohan's statement about Gogeta to be meaningful in anyway because I don't think fusions can be accurately predicted. Plus Boohan is just arrogant.

[Draken]

No, I don't think it's possible to reliably estimate based on two completely different people using the technique. Especially when slight variations in the technique can produce incredibly different results. And Goku's not working with number estimates, but feelings of power. I don't put much stock into it.

You still have the issue of Piccolo sensing both Majin Vegeta and pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and concluding that only one of them had a chance against Dai Kaioshin Buu... and I don't wanna hear how being involved in a gag automatically makes everything he says null and void, as his line was retconned anyway, not to mention contradicted on the page, which is not the case here.

I'm not going to discount it just because it's a gag. Piccolo overrates Gotenks. There's evidence in the manga that ki can't be properly measured when someone isn't fighting anyway. And the line isn't retconned, because what Piccolo said just didn't apply to that brief moment.

I don't consider Boohan's statement about Gogeta to be meaningful in anyway because I don't think fusions can be accurately predicted. Plus Boohan is just arrogant.

I agree with fusions being hard to predict. My own theory is, who's to say that Potara and Metamor differ in power greatly? Yes, Potara is the better fusion. It has no time limit, no drawbacks (aside from being permanent!) and the users don't have to be near identical. However, they could still both have the "rival boost" (if it exists), compatibility, etc etc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah I think Fusion's power is dependent on the fusees. Gogeta is as strong as he is because Goku and Vegeta make for a more complete fusion. That's not to say Gotenks is only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, I just think it's not very easy to predict.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not going to discount it just because it's a gag. Piccolo overrates Gotenks. There's evidence in the manga that ki can't be properly measured when someone isn't fighting anyway. And the line isn't retconned, because what Piccolo said just didn't apply to that brief moment.

Super Buu's power was completely unknown at that point, as it's like a lie. For all we know base Gotenks really is stronger than any ki sensed up to that point. I don't really know what you mean by that; at first Piccolo acts like base Gotenks has a shot against someone stronger than Fat Buu, but later he admits that he thought that even Super Saiyan Gotenks would lose.

I know you hate Piccolo and think he's an idiot, but come on, you can't assume that he's so overwhelmingly dumb that he would sense Majin Vegeta, sense a power below Majin Vegeta, and conclude that the power weaker than Vegeta will succeed where Vegeta failed horribly.

So I guess Goku and Piccolo both doomed the universe because they're idiots, and at least one of them has short term memory loss. That's too bad.

I don't consider Boohan's statement about Gogeta to be meaningful in anyway because I don't think fusions can be accurately predicted. Plus Boohan is just arrogant.

Didn't you say on the versus thread that you thought that Buuhan would beat hypothetical manga SS3 Gogeta? If you don't believe in a consistent formula for fusion and don't believe in Buu's statements, then how did you reach that conclusion?

Yeah I think Fusion's power is dependent on the fusees. Gogeta is as strong as he is because Goku and Vegeta make for a more complete fusion. That's not to say Gotenks is only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, I just think it's not very easy to predict.

I'm still not sure what do with the fusion formula. I still want to fit in the information we have on hypothetical manga Gogeta, i.e. that he'd get his ass handed to him by Buuhan, but I think that would be overpowering the kids a bit too much.

Gogeta doesn't exist in canon. Only in Movie 13, and there, he's Toei-haxxed, just like Goku and Vegeta both are. From what little we know of a hypothetical manga Gogeta, he's no match for Buuhan.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I just assume he makes for a complete fusion. I don't consider his manga counterpart any weaker.

[Saiga]

I don't hate Piccolo. I think he's stupid but I think you're really overthinking things to say he is constantly comparing battle powers before every thing that he says. You also just ignored that the manga has implications that standing characters can't be reliable measured anyway.

I said Boohan would beat Gogeta because that's a pretty high level and I wouldn't assume Gogeta would reach it (basically, trying to be conservative).

[RandomGuy96]

I don't hate Piccolo. I think he's stupid but I think you're really overthinking things to say he is constantly comparing battle powers before every thing that he says. You also just ignored that the manga has implications that standing characters can't be reliable measured anyway.

I don't think I'm overthinking things at all. Piccolo senses Vegeta. Piccolo sees Vegeta get his ass kicked by Buu. Piccolo senses Gotenks. Piccolo concludes that Gotenks can beat Buu. That's it; it's very, very simple, and very, very straightforward. This does not require him to constantly compare battle powers before every thing he says; it just requires him to be a somewhat functional humanoid being without short term memory loss and mental retardation.

When did the manga say that standing characters can't be measured properly? All I've seen is some implications that their ki gets even more impressive when they're fighting. Even if that were true, Piccolo seemed to know this and so asked for a demonstration of Gotenks' abilities. He never commented on them being worse than he thought and never commented on Gotenks' ki being inadequate. And he's sensed Vegeta's ki.

Again, a gag scene that's possibly explainable anyway that was contradicted on the page and was later retconned, and relied on a comparison to Buu, who's ki was "like a lie" =/= numerous uncontradicted statements with two fighters who were clearly sensed to compare each other to.

[Mjb1985]

Ssj Gotenks should definitely be superior to Fat Buu. It's stated half a dozen times.

[RandomGuy96]

So yeah, just a little Gotenks-related update, I changed my fusion formula to (A + B) x 4, because I'm trying to keep in line with Buuhan's estimates and what I feel was implied in the manga (by Goku's reaction and Vegetto's statement, among other things) while still fitting in the guidebook information and its implications. The guidebook implied a very tiny difference between Gogeta and Gotenks, and also said that a fusion is many times stronger than the sum of its parts. Many is subjective, but by definition it should be more than a few which is more than a couple, so yeah, "many"'s minimum is four...

Goku- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 40,000,000,000
Vegeta- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,000,000,000

Piccolo- 2,750,000,000
Trunks (post-ROSAT)- 44,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,200,000,000
Goten (post-ROSAT)- 41,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 2,050,000,000

Gotenks (post-ROSAT)- 340,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 17,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 34,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 136,000,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta- 800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 320,000,000,000

Super Buu- 100,000,000,000
--Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 288,000,000,000
-A hypothetical Gogeta would be able to fight evenly with him for a short while, but due to stamina issues that Buu is all too aware of, as well as Buu's regeneration, he'd have no chance at all of winning.

[Saiga]

Regarding Pure Boo vs Mr Boo, would 32,000,000,000 and 28,800,000,000 gap be big enough to fit the fight?

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not so sure. I think you and I have different standards of what kind of gap is required for a stomp, but for me Good Buu being 90% of Kid Buu would imply that they're equal, or at least very close. I have Good Buu at 80% of him at the moment, roughly the same as I have other gaps like Freeza vs Goku, Vegeta vs 18, Super Buu vs Gotenks (though I know you disagree with me there), and Vegeta vs Recoome; the weaker fighter can inflict some damage and hold their own, maybe even win if they land the right attack, but are still very clearly outmatched. And Kid Buu did seem to be outmatching Good Buu pretty handily.

[Saiga]

I did think it was too small, I was just wondering if I could keep the same BP for Mr Boo and Fat Boo (vs Goku) and have it still work. But on the other hand it'd probably be contrived for Fat Boo and Mr Boo to have the exact same power.

[RandomGuy96]

You can just make Kid Buu stronger than Goku (he does seem to imply Buu was stronger when he says he needs to train to get better to beat him) or widen the gap between Fat Buu and Goku (IIRC Goku dominated that fight and at one point tanked a punch and smacked away a Kamehameha).