Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[B]

But that's not the same thing because the show is not the manga. The dub is still the show, albeit mangled to hell.

I don't even understand how you can rearrange that hypothetical to make sense. Toei dubs the manga? How do you dub a comic book? And what need would there be for this if Toei is a Japanese company and the manga is already in Japanese? They insert voice chips into every page and crudely draw an extra finger on all of Piccolo's appearances?

[ABED]

I'm of the opinion that adapting something to a different medium doesn't mean you have to stick close to it. For instance, Dexter doesn't have to stick close to the books. However, once the show is written and animated, the adaptations shouldn't take liberties just because it's another language.

[Ringworm128]

They don't dub the manga but they were supposed to simply put Toriyama's work into motion the manga was already being made they didn't have to change anything just like how the dialogue was already written so Funimation didn't have to change it. Yet people defend Toei with "Oh but they animated it themselves" when you could use that logic to defend Funimation since they did all the changes themselves. It's like two kids that have been naughty and one (Toei) gets a mild telling off (if even that) while the other (Funimation) gets whipped with a belt until his ass is blue. And "Cat loves food" doesn't really change the intent of the scene since it was meant to be them talking nonsense while having a BBQ.

You know, frankly, I don't care what you personally find exciting or fitting. The show is the show. The songs are the songs. The dialogue is the dialogue.

"But the music was outdated!" I don't care. It's the music that belongs with the show. I don't care if the music is a bunch of bagpipes and fart noises, you don't replace it. It's the soundtrack of that show. You don't have to like it, but you do have to hear it if you're watching the show.

If you change it as radically as they did you get a show that isn't DBZ. I don't care what the reasoning is for the changes, if you have to change the show to sell it, don't sell it. Defacing it with a bunch of unrelated music and dialogue is frankly immoral. Period.

And fine, maybe if Funimation didn't do it, somebody else would have. Maybe even worse. I don't care. They're the ones who did it, not some fictional hypothetical company, Funimation.

Your whole reasoning for why the dub is bad is based solely on some moral code YOU made up. Who made you the pope of anime. How is the dub " immoral" when Toei was fine with everything Funimation did? That would be like if one guy asked his friend if he could borrow his chainsaw and the friend said "sure, do whatever you want with it" and then you told the guy off saying "how dare you take his chainsaw. It's wrong to take peoples things."

[B]

But the manga is irrelevant to the conversation. When people say "Toei can do this or that because they animated the show" it's because... that is what they did! I don't really know how to be more clear. They created a brand new, completely standalone product. FUNimation did not do this. They altered someone else's product. The comparison to how the anime differs from the manga just isn't apt because they're two different things. The anime and FUNimation's dub of the anime are the same thing with different voices/words/music coming out.

And for the record, Toei doesn't just get a free pass. Plenty of people take issue with how it handles adapting the manga. I for one have no interest in owning Z, or at the very least not all 291 episodes. The reason you apparently aren't seeing or hearing about such backlash is because it's an entirely separate topic of discussion.

[ABED]

They don't dub the manga but they were supposed to simply put Toriyama's work into motion the manga was already being made they didn't have to change anything just like how the dialogue was already written so Funimation didn't have to change it. Yet people defend Toei with "Oh but they animated it themselves" when you could use that logic to defend Funimation since they did all the changes themselves. It's like two kids that have been naughty and one (Toei) gets a mild telling off (if even that) while the other (Funimation) gets whipped with a belt until his ass is blue. And "Cat loves food" doesn't really change the intent of the scene since it was meant to be them talking nonsense while having a BBQ.

It makes it dumber than it should be, and the Cat loves food was connected to NOTHING, nor is it the kind of humor that series does.

Toei didn't really change much, they simply added. FUNi did a LOT of changing and much of it was dumbing it down.

[Ringworm128]

Funimations dub is still technically a standalone product. Cutting out the footage and editing it like they did in the Saban era or their cropping for the season sets would be altering something thats already been made. The dub was made from scratch just like how the show was animated from scratch.

If it doesn't sell? Then move onto the next one. If it's risky? Too bad, get out of the business if you have a problem.

I have a feeling that if you were in their shoes with a company that needed to make money or else you and your workers and family would end up jobless you would be thinking VEEEEEERRRRY differently.

[ABED]

Funimations dub is still technically a standalone product. Cutting out the footage and editing it like they did in the Saban era or their cropping for the season sets would be altering something thats already been made. The dub was made from scratch just like how the show was animated from scratch.

The dub was not made from scratch, they are writing to existing animation and synching it up.

[Ringworm128]

And Toie was animating to an already written story.

[ABED]

And Toie was animating to an already written story.

But the voice track and the video are integrated, so it's not the same thing as intermedium adapting. An animated show isn't a show until there's both the voice track and the animation. The show was animated to that writing, not "Mondo cool", Humphry Bogart impressions, or Freeza's constant sexual innuendo.

[penguintruth]

What a spurious line of reasoning. It's okay for Funimation to radically alter the dialogue because Toei altered parts of the story of the manga for the TV show?

That's a completely ludicrous suggestion, because as I mentioned, it implies that somehow Funimation is reflecting the manga better than Toei by what they're doing, or somehow they're "even" because there's filler in the TV show. Utter bullshit.

Funimation. Did. Not. Make. The. Show.

We're just arguing in circles now.

[Ringworm128]

I never said it was "ok" while I don't really have a problem with either Funimation or Toei and what they did That's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that I find it odd that Toei gets a free pass while Funimation is treated like the worst thing ever when they both did the same thing in a sense.
Funimation. Did. Not. Make. The. Show. Just like how Toei. Did. Not. Make. Dragonball. And the whole "it's morally wrong" thing has no ground since Toei gave Funimation their blessing so they had both the legal and moral right. If you want to be some hyper purist fine go ahead, but saying the dub is some kind of moral crime and is bad by default based on some code for enjoying anime you've set yourself to is like a hindu telling a person off for eating a steak.

[B]

Funimation. Did. Not. Make. The. Show. Just like how Toei. Did. Not. Make. Dragonball.

You see, right here? You're not talking about the same thing. You had to change "the show" to "Dragonball" for your analogy to work. FUNimation's job in bringing the anime to North America is not the same as Toei's was in making a cartoon based on a comic. How could you possibly see them as similar?

[Rocketman]

Toei did a worse job of making Dragonball than Funi did in making Dragonball USA.

[Fionordequester]

No, Gohan's adventure in the woods and Raditz killing the farmer weren't two different episodes. It's not an action packed episode, but it's not uneventful. There's drama and suspense. It allows the show to unfold like a novel. I don't think children's attention spans are that short. I also didn't say Gohan was chased, I wrote "He chased a mountain lion." My point was that it was unique and would've grabbed my attention since you'd expect it to be the other way around. Here's what happens in the episode: An alien arrives (already as a kid it has me hooked) and kills a farmer within the first couple minutes, Gohan chases after a mountain lion (opposite of what you would expect), falls into a river where his father tries to save him (suspense), Goku doesn't get there in time, but Gohan is on a tree branch (mystery), then Raditz confronts Piccolo and Piccolo is powerless to do anything (kickass).

Western cartoons weren't that action packed back during the mid to late 90s. There might have been a number of action sequences but they weren't until the end and they weren't as fast and furious (fucking Paul Walker) as DBZ by a mile.

Alright, so the first episode was a bad example. But the point is, there are plenty of episodes of Z where almost nothing is happening, something that you'd almost never see in any episode of a typical western cartoon. And since I define "action packed" as "having lots of action", I would say that Z is indeed less action packed than most western cartoons (even if the action we do get in Z is far better).

Bulma is vain, but not an airhead. She's very smart.

Once again, she got hitched with Vegeta. Her very first interaction with Vegeta, the one who murdered her friends was something like "hey, need a place to stay?". If that's not airheaded, I don't know what is.

Trunks was never fancy with his speech, and the FUNi version isn't nearly as polite. Much of the time he seems in a constant state of having a stick up his ass.

A stick up his butt huh? Would you mind directing me to which specific instant you're thinking of? Because I never got any rude vibes off of Trunk's besides one time where he was complaining about Vegeta staring off into space for several days.

Kaio doesn't pee on his property in public, there is no public.

If there's at least one other person with you, especially a stranger, I count that as in public.

Buu didn't act like a toddler. He was capable of full sentences. He was a manchild. He wouldn't say "Why you no like Buu."

Really? Was that just the Viz manga I was thinking of then? I could've sworn he started off fragmented in his speech, but got steadily better over time.

"as long as they get the main points..." No, just no. The beauty of good writing comes from the nuances and the particulars. The death of Vegeta in the dub vs his death in the original are like night and day, even when you disregard the ridiculous "Freeza made me what I am" bit. It doesn't get the nuance, and completely misses the part where vegeta says "he must die by Saiyan hands" while the image is focused on Vegeta's hand. Well written dialog is everything. It can be the difference between a scene pulling on your heart strings or rolling your eyes.

I will admit that the FUNI Vegeta scene was an eyeroller since it contradicts what happens later. However, once again, you're using a Pre-Season 5 example, which I personally think shouldn't be representative of the other 7 seasons that FUNImation dubbed. To be perfectly honest, there's something I want to ask, and I don't mean anything by this, but...how recently have you actually watched the FUNI dub in any format other than really short clips or the like? I ask because it seems like people keep repeating mistakes from Seasons 3 and 4 over and over and over again.

[Ringworm128]

Funimation. Did. Not. Make. The. Show. Just like how Toei. Did. Not. Make. Dragonball.

You see, right here? You're not talking about the same thing. You had to change "the show" to "Dragonball" for your analogy to work. FUNimation's job in bringing the anime to North America is not the same as Toei's was in making a cartoon based on a comic. How could you possibly see them as similar?

They're not exactly the same thing but the whole "taking one thing and adapting/changing it" logic still applies.

[ABED]

Toei did a worse job of making Dragonball than Funi did in making Dragonball USA.

"More like Burnt toast!"

you're using a Pre-Season 5 example, which I personally think shouldn't be representative of the other 7 seasons that FUNImation dubbed

There are PLENTY of quotes from seasons 1-4 of bad dubbing, that's the bulk of the show. You can't keep dismissing that because it doesn't conform to your point that they did a bad job. You know what happened in the last arc, the writing got better because it got closer to the original. SHOCKER!

Bubbles is his pet monkey and doesn't count as public.

Airheads don't invent dragon radars and put together alien space ships. She has her absent minded moments, but she's not an airhead. She's also not a valley girl.

I would say that Z is indeed less action packed than most western cartoons

I still say you're wrong. The shows you listed were pretty much all post Dragon Ball.

Trunks did seem very irritated, I don't remember the exact moment but there was one time where someone said something and Trunks snapped at them, when in the original he was his normal polite self.

[Fionordequester]

you're using a Pre-Season 5 example, which I personally think shouldn't be representative of the other 7 seasons that FUNImation dubbed

There are PLENTY of quotes from seasons 1-4 of bad dubbing, that's the bulk of the show. You can't keep dismissing that because it doesn't conform to your point that they did a bad job.[/quote]

Sure I can. All it means to me is that, for a few arcs of the show, the writing was bad, but then got much better in the second half. Combine that with what I figure to be better music, and I've got a perfectly legitimate reason to enjoy the dub, no matter what I may have thought of the writing beforehand. And when you use nothing but Season 1-4 examples, it gives the false impression that ALL of the dub was like that, which is unfair.

Bubbles is his pet monkey and doesn't count as public.

Goku does.

Airheads don't invent dragon radars and put together alien space ships. She has her absent minded moments, but she's not an airhead.

Sure they can. That's what TV Tropes calls a "bunny ears lawyer". And while we're on the subject, remember Zarbon? The way Bulma immediately fell in love with him? Or her wanting to wish for something as trivial as a boyfriend once she got the Dragon Balls? Or her allowing strangers to touch her naughty bits? Or her wanting to go with the Z Warriors to check out Frieza when he came to Earth because "she wanted to check him out" or something like that? And for that matter the Androids?

I don't know what more she has to do to be called an airhead, but she's definitely one in my book.

I still say you're wrong. The shows you listed were pretty much all post Dragon Ball.

Really? Well which ones are you thinking of?

Trunks did seem very irritated, I don't remember the exact moment but there was one time where someone said something and Trunks snapped at them, when in the original he was his normal polite self.

Unfortunately, I can't really take you at your word then. Sorry .

[Gaffer Tape]

Sure I can. All it means to me is that, for a few arcs of the show, the writing was bad, but then got much better in the second half. Combine that with what I figure to be better music, and I've got a perfectly legitimate reason to enjoy the dub, no matter what I may have thought of the writing beforehand. And when you use nothing but Season 1-4 examples, it gives the false impression that ALL of the dub was like that, which is unfair.

I'm not going to get into the argument if anything past season 4 was filled with bad dialogue because I'd stopped watching, but let's say you're right, and it was substantially better. A generalization? Perhaps. Unfair? Um... 4 seasons out of 6? Doesn't seem unfair to make an overall assessment based on that.

[penguintruth]

I never said it was "ok" while I don't really have a problem with either Funimation or Toei and what they did That's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that I find it odd that Toei gets a free pass while Funimation is treated like the worst thing ever when they both did the same thing in a sense.
Funimation. Did. Not. Make. The. Show. Just like how Toei. Did. Not. Make. Dragonball. And the whole "it's morally wrong" thing has no ground since Toei gave Funimation their blessing so they had both the legal and moral right. If you want to be some hyper purist fine go ahead, but saying the dub is some kind of moral crime and is bad by default based on some code for enjoying anime you've set yourself to is like a hindu telling a person off for eating a steak.

Toei has never gotten a pass. People bitch about padding and filler all the damn time.

Funimation's job isn't to do a dub of the manga, so it's irrelevant. Their job was to DUB TOEI'S 291 EPISODES OF DBZ (TV), not some weird Frankenstein version they made up in their minds. Leave the criticism of Toei's adaptation to discussions about Toei. It does not excuse Funimation for their horrendous rendition. That's completely absurd and insulting reasoning.

The show Dragon Ball Z? The one that ran for 291 episodes on Fuji TV? TOEI CREATED THAT. FUNIMATION DID NOT.

Yeah, I'm such a hyper purist, I want a show to be how it's intended instead of how Funimation prefers it to be. I have an actual appreciation for people who ANIMATE rather than leech off the works of others. Do you see any cel work from Funimation? Did Funimation do Storyboards, In-Betweens, Ink & Paint, or scripts for the show as it originally appeared? All Funimation did was have a president related to somebody at Toei.

This is an exhaustingly stupid discussion.

[Ringworm128]

Funimation making up their own dialogue somehow effects the work the animators did? Toei may get crap for what they did but it's usually equal to "now you shouldn't do that it's naughty. Don't cry, if you're good you can have an ice cream." While Funimation gets "All right ya fuckin little shit if I catch you doing that one more time I'l beat ya head in! SHUT THE FUCK UP! Martha he's crying, WHERE'S MY FUCKING BELT!!!"