Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[Rocketman]

Toei did a worse job of making Dragonball than Funi did in making Dragonball USA.

"More like Burnt toast!"

Five Minutes.

[penguintruth]

Funimation making up their own dialogue somehow effects the work the animators did?

What an incredibly myopic thing to say.

It's the show as a whole I'm talking about. Funimation did not make this show. The show, this TV show, is a Toei production, not a Funimation one.

I cannot see how this is not getting through to you. Clearly this is above your understanding. Funimation should not be applauded for rewriting the show just because Toei took liberties when adapting the manga. That is such a completely different situation it makes my head spin that anyone would even use that line of reasoning. It's absolute peyote-induced madness. If I cooked meth for twelve years I would still not have enough psychotropic drugs to put me in such a high that such reasoning would make sense.

And what? What, Toei screwed up, so Funimation came around and improved it by... what? Being even less accurate?

This is your line of reasoning. It's embarrassing us all.

[Ringworm128]

I never said that Funimation made it better, I never said that what Toei did made what Funimation did alright I just said that it's stupid that Funimation gets all this hate for changing Toei's product when Toei gets only a fraction of hate for changing and padding Toriyama's work under the defense of "they did it themselves" even though Funimations did it themselves as well. And how is your argument any better? Your whole argument is based upon how YOU think dubs should be made. Funimation never had to make the show faithful, not acording to any paper work or anything there's no official way a dub should be made, Toei's the only one who can truly say what Funimation did was wrong, and they let them keep DBZ so what does that tell you?

[ABED]

I wasn't thinking Justice League or JLU, which came afterwards. Batman and Superman the animated series had some action but Batman: The animated series was typically him deducing things, Superman threw a few punches, but not always, MMPR isn't a cartoon, Ninja Turtles had some action per episode but it wasn't as extended or as quick, same thing with shows like X-Men or Spider-Man.

Kaio-sama doesn't pee in front of Goku. He mentions long range peeing is one of the ways he passes the time.

To be an airhead, she has to be someone like Cordelia in the first season of Buffy. Who did she allow to touch her naughty bits? She allowed Roshi to see what she assumed was her undies, but that's not airheadedness. Remember, she was the voice of reason saying they should've stopped the cyborgs before they were activated. Even if I agreed that she's an airhead (which I don't), that's not what defines her. In the dub, that's all they seemed to play up for the dialog to Vollmer's delivery.

Unfortunately, I can't really take you at your word then. Sorry

I'm not asking you to take my word on faith, but I'm not lying. One of Trunks defining characteristics is his politeness, and that's lacking in the dub. He's about as polite as any other character in the dub. His dialog is fairly bland and minus him talking about the future, he sounds similar to most characters on the show. It's been a while since I watched the dub so I can't point to every specific instance. I wish I could, but it's definitely there.

And finally, yes, disregarding a significant chunk of the dub is cherry picking. The last arc isn't indicative of the rest of it. yes, season 3 and the beginning of season 4 was the worst of it, but seasons and 2 were also pretty bad. The last arc was only good because they started veering towards the original.

Five Minutes.

You say "five minutes" and I raise you "Yes, Yes, YES, YES!" The five minute thing was also in the manga. Yeah, it's a stretch, but what happened in those episodes was good, hardly what I would call terrible. I'd take that over "We're two wild and crazy space explorers" any day.

Ringworm, they padded, they didn't make drastic changes to dialog and characters, like making Yamcha inexplicably a surfer.

[Fionordequester]

I'm not going to get into the argument if anything past season 4 was filled with bad dialogue because I'd stopped watching, but let's say you're right, and it was substantially better. A generalization? Perhaps. Unfair? Um... 4 seasons out of 6? Doesn't seem unfair to make an overall assessment based on that.

Actually it was 9 Seasons (at least, according to my Orange Bricks), and as for Seasons 1-4, only Seasons 3 and 4 were actually done by the FUNI dub we're talking about. So really, that's only about 7 Seasons they did, and out of those 7, only 2 of them had the horrible writing many people quote.

Their job was to DUB TOEI'S 291 EPISODES OF DBZ (TV), not some weird Frankenstein version they made up in their minds.

Penguintruth, despite what some may say, I don't think you're that bad of a guy, and I still really appreciate what you did for me when I wanted a birthday present for my best friend. So if you want to say what FUNI's job was, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, you can't say that as a statement of fact when Toei themselves agreed to let FUNI change the show the way they did.

I cannot see how this is not getting through to you. Clearly this is above your understanding. Funimation should not be applauded for rewriting the show just because Toei took liberties when adapting the manga. That is such a completely different situation it makes my head spin that anyone would even use that line of reasoning. It's absolute peyote-induced madness. If I cooked meth for twelve years I would still not have enough psychotropic drugs to put me in such a high that such reasoning would make sense.

Perhaps not to you. But again, that's your opinion, not a statement of fact. The way I see it, Toei wanted to feature their version of Dragon Ball Z to make money, and FUNI also wanted to feature their version of Dragon Ball Z to make money. Just because their methods were different doesn't mean that one is automatically worse than the other. It only means both of them suck equally.

In fact, I don't think Toei should have even allowed FUNI to make the changes they did without being much more involved in the process than they ended up being. But that doesn't mean I still can't enjoy a product that I happened to find better in spite of the questionable circumstances it was made in (though if it helps make you less mad, I consider the music to be the main appeal of the dub over the original, not the unfaithful dialogue).

Kaio-sama doesn't pee in front of Goku. He mentions long range peeing is one of the ways he passes the time.

Didn't the animation show him peeing as he was explaining it to Goku? I interpreted that to mean he was, in fact, peeing in front of Goku...though I suppose I could see how that was simple exaggeration now that I think of it.

To be an airhead, she has to be someone like Cordelia in the first season of Buffy. Who did she allow to touch her naughty bits? She allowed Roshi to see what she assumed was her undies, but that's not airheadedness. Remember, she was the voice of reason saying they should've stopped the cyborgs before they were activated. Even if I agreed that she's an airhead (which I don't), that's not what defines her. In the dub, that's all they seemed to play up for the dialog to Vollmer's delivery.

I will agree that they played up her worst qualities. However, those were qualities that were already there to begin with, so I don't see how what they did suddenly made her a totally different character. Really, the worst thing I would say about the Z Warriors is that they're more exaggerated, and even much of that can be chalked up to the acting rather than the writing.

I wasn't thinking Justice League or JLU, which came afterwards. Batman and Superman the animated series had some action but Batman: The animated series was typically him deducing things, Superman threw a few punches, but not always, MMPR isn't a cartoon, Ninja Turtles had some action per episode but it wasn't as extended or as quick, same thing with shows like X-Men or Spider-Man.

But just about all of them had SOME amount of action per episode. Whereas with DBZ, it had extremely action-packed MOMENTS...but it wasn't as action-packed as a whole. It's the same thing with the comedy Roseanne. It confronted serious issues such as masturbation and lesbianism and all that stuff, yet I wouldn't call it just as serious as say, "Once Upon a Time", which is basically a soap opera but with fantasy characters.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Actually it was 9 Seasons (at least, according to my Orange Bricks)...

The so called "season" sets are not the actual seasons as broadcast in the US. There were indeed only 6. FUNi just doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what a season is.

...and as for Seasons 1-4, only Seasons 3 and 4 were actually done by the FUNi dub we're talking about. So really, that's only about 7 Seasons they did, and out of those 7, only 2 of them had the horrible writing many people.

This is also incorrect. FUNi was responsible for the bad writing of seasons 1 and 2 as well. Only the voice work was outsourced to Ocean Group, but FUNi was running the creative department all along.

[Fionordequester]

Actually it was 9 Seasons (at least, according to my Orange Bricks)...

The so called "season" sets are not the actual seasons as broadcast in the US. There were indeed only 6. FUNi just doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what a season is.

Hmm...well then that's an issue, because when I referred to "Season 4", I was referring to about up to after the Z Fighters got owned by Androids 17 and 18. So what exactly defines the end of Season 4 to you guys?

...and as for Seasons 1-4, only Seasons 3 and 4 were actually done by the FUNi dub we're talking about. So really, that's only about 7 Seasons they did, and out of those 7, only 2 of them had the horrible writing many people.

This is also incorrect. FUNi was responsible for the bad writing of seasons 1 and 2 as well. Only the voice work was outsourced to Ocean Group, but FUNi was running the creative department all along.

Huh...then why was the writing so...goofy in Season 3? Seasons 1 and 2 were just sort of anachronistic and lame (from what I remember), but Season 3 was about as off-the-wall as you could possibly get.

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually it was 9 Seasons (at least, according to my Orange Bricks)...

The so called "season" sets are not the actual seasons as broadcast in the US. There were indeed only 6. FUNi just doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what a season is.

Hmm...well then that's an issue, because when I referred to "Season 4", I was referring to about up to after the Z Fighters got owned by Androids 17 and 18. So what exactly defines the end of Season 4 to you guys?

...and as for Seasons 1-4, only Seasons 3 and 4 were actually done by the FUNi dub we're talking about. So really, that's only about 7 Seasons they did, and out of those 7, only 2 of them had the horrible writing many people.

This is also incorrect. FUNi was responsible for the bad writing of seasons 1 and 2 as well. Only the voice work was outsourced to Ocean Group, but FUNi was running the creative department all along.

Huh...then why was the writing so...goofy in Season 3? Seasons 1 and 2 were just sort of anachronistic and lame (from what I remember), but Season 3 was about as off-the-wall as you could possibly get.

Seasons 1 and 2 had "the next dimension." At the very least, you can say that season 3 got away from that.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Hmm...well then that's an issue, because when I referred to "Season 4", I was referring to about up to after the Z Fighters got owned by Androids 17 and 18. So what exactly defines the end of Season 4 to you guys?

That would be episode 194, which is the end of the Cell arc.

[Fionordequester]

Hmm...well then that's an issue, because when I referred to "Season 4", I was referring to about up to after the Z Fighters got owned by Androids 17 and 18. So what exactly defines the end of Season 4 to you guys?

That would be episode 194, which is the end of the Cell arc.

Huh, I see...well I would say the dub definitely got better even before that.

Seasons 1 and 2 had "the next dimension." At the very least, you can say that season 3 got away from that.

Yeah but at least with that one, you could see the reasoning behind it, whereas with Season 3...

Goku (when held in full nelson by Ginyu): "UGGHH, STRONG POWER! CAN'T SHAKE IT!"

Ginyu (after getting trashed a bit by Vegeta: "UUGHH, heh, heh, heh, good job Vegeta. Strong work!"

Ginyu (when body changing): "And now I'll metamorph into your body, AND FOOL ALL YOUR MEN!"

Dende (describing Porunga): "HEY, DON'T *** OFF THE GOD OF LOVE!"

Vegeta (calling Goku a name): BIG SUCK!

I just have no clue. Why in the world was everyone describing things of great quality as "strong"? This is what I mean. Seasons 1-2 felt like they were written by hacks with a very corny sense of humor, while Season 3 was written by the world's most eccentric (and possibly gayest) man.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Well, I can't say for certain exactly why FUNi decided to go from bad to worse with their writing, but what I do know is that there was a long stretch of time between seasons 2's end and 3's beginning, due to the show being cancelled in its syndication run in 1998, with no new season for that year.

[ABED]

I will agree that they played up her worst qualities. However, those were qualities that were already there to begin with, so I don't see how what they did suddenly made her a totally different character. Really, the worst thing I would say about the Z Warriors is that they're more exaggerated, and even much of that can be chalked up to the acting rather than the writing.

But she became a caracicature of the character. There are moments of flightiness, but they play it to the nth degree, at pretty much all times. I would chalk it up to the writing, directing and acting, seeing as how they cast Vollmer based on the writing.

well I would say the dub definitely got better even before that.

It took them close to half way through the show to get better. That's not an insignificant chunk, and thus IS indicative of the show. The last half got better, but as I wrote, they got closer to the original.

(though if it helps make you less mad, I consider the music to be the main appeal of the dub over the original, not the unfaithful dialogue).

Who watches a show for the music?

Didn't the animation show him peeing as he was explaining it to Goku? I interpreted that to mean he was, in fact, peeing in front of Goku...though I suppose I could see how that was simple exaggeration now that I think of it.

In the manga he just says those things, whereas in the anime they show a visual representation. It's still him explaining. Kaio-sama is goofy, but that's not ALL he is. He is often solemn. Here's a line I vividly remember

Dub Kaio: And it's 50 cents a minute, that's my rate. *snort laugh*
Original Kaio: I won't have you dishonor my name. Kaio-sama is how I am addressed, Kaio-sama.

In Kai, He says something akin to the original, but with King in place of "sama".

But just about all of them had SOME amount of action per episode. Whereas with DBZ, it had extremely action-packed MOMENTS...but it wasn't as action-packed as a whole

They weren't mere MOMENTS of action. and your comparison between a sitcom with serious moments and a drama with some comedy isn't apt. DBZ is designed as an action show. Yeah there are slower moments and cutaways, but entire fights extend over several episodes.

[VegettoEX]

Who watches a show for the music?

I've certainly stuck with shows I wouldn't have otherwise kept watching because the score was beautiful and helped shaped the experience.

Don't assume your viewing experiences speak for everyone!

[ABED]

Who watches a show for the music?

I've certainly stuck with shows I wouldn't have otherwise kept watching because the score was beautiful and helped shaped the experience.

Don't assume your viewing experiences speak for everyone!

I get that but I don't buy it. Music helps shape an experience but it's not THE experience. Supernatural is an awesome show, and I love the soundtrack but unless the writing was there, why would anyone stick around to listen to the music, much less a significant number to move the needle? Who other than musicians would watch a show primarily for the music? Do you think kids were watching the show en masse for Faulconer's score? Regardless of my feelings about the quality of the music, any score is the cherry on top.

Can you give me something specific? What show's score kept you watching?

[90sDBZ]

Well I honestly think people are just twisting their own moral logic to suit their argument when needed. Toei messed with it to make money with Toriyama's blessing and Funi messed with it to make money with Toei's blessing. Toei wanted them to do whatever they felt necessary to make it a success so they did. There's no moral problem in either case.

Anyway plenty of people love the dub to this day and have got a great amount of enjoyment out of it over the years so I'd say this is a case where the end justifies the means.

And about the whole "People don't watch a show for the music" thing. I have to disagree. While music alone can't make a show it is the heart and soul of it and is equally as important as the animation. Take movies like the horror film Halloween for example. I remember watching a documentary were the makers talked about the music and said they originally watched the movie with no music and didn't find it scary in the slightest. Then they added the music and they found it terrifying. The main title theme being played in all the commercials was the main hook that got people interested which lead to the spreading of word of mouth and ultimately made the movie a massive success and launched the slasher genre into mainstream throughout the 80s.

Another example is Batman 1989. They built up a feeling of mystery and anticipation before the film even came out by playing the music in promos. Visuals and story alone can only go so far but combined with the right music that draws you in and gets you on the edge of your seat it can take something from being average to being incredible. Even when people don't originally watch a show or movie for the music many do go back and rewatch it many times just because they enjoy the score so much. Simply put the importance of a score cannot be overstated.

And I really don't see how Faulconer's music doesn't fit the animation. Faulconer and his team clearly put a lot of thought into what was going on onscreen when they created the music. Toei themselves changed the music for Kai and plenty of people accepted that without complaining about it just because Toei did it even though it later turned out to be lifted straight from American movies and other media rather than made just for Kai. They actually felt the old score was dated and needed changing to introduce the show to a new audience.

[Fionordequester]

Basically, the score, even disregarding musical inclinations (I will admit that I'm considering becoming a composer, though I'm leaning slightly towards other jobs) is like an editor. You may not even how far it elevates the material at first, but once it's gone, MAN do you feel the effects!

It took them close to half way through the show to get better. That's not an insignificant chunk, and thus IS indicative of the show. The last half got better, but as I wrote, they got closer to the original.

Technically it may not have even been only the last half that was better if we count the Uncut/Remastered Season 2 and about half of Season 1. Sure, Season 1 was still weighed down by much of the dialogue that plagued the Ocean dub (though thankfully some of the worst lines were taken out), but the dialogue was otherwise fairly accurate when it came to the animation that Ocean previously cut out, so that's about I'd say...maybe half of a season of improvement? And while I'm not sure on Season 2, I believe it was at that point that they stopped heavily using faulty old dialogue (though I may be wrong on that). So if that's the case, that's about 6.5 out of 9 Seasons that were competently dubbed.

[ABED]

And about the whole "People don't watch a show for the music" thing. I have to disagree. While music alone can't make a show it is the heart and soul of it and is equally as important as the animation. Take movies like the horror film Halloween for example. I remember watching a documentary were the makers talked about the music and said they originally watched the movie with no music and didn't find it scary in the slightest

Not what I meant in the least. You'll get no argument that score is important in setting mood, but in terms of getting people to see something, and see it again, how many people will pay good money just to listen to a score? The score is just one isolated element, and has to come together with the visuals and the dialog as a whole. It's important but I don't think Faulconer's score was the main draw to the dub.

I don't know how many people go back to watch an entire movie for a score especially when you can buy the score, which I have. I think Danny Elfman's them is great but I wouldn't watch an entire film, or pay money to see it simply for the music, nor an entire TV show. It has to have a story and characters I find compelling. Who in the world would sit through nearly 300 episodes just to hear the music? It's the music in conjunction with the images and dialog.

Faulconer did put some thought but it's bland, lifeless, cheap, etc. And as many have said, he didn't get the show. Bulma's theme misses her character completely, and he doesn't get the intention of many scenes such as Goku transforming into SS1 and 3. I don't know what's dated or not, but the Kikuchi score fit that show to a T. While I don't love all of Kai's score it still sounds more professional, and there are a number great cues. Kikuchi's score elevates and supports the show. That "rockin" guitar riff is so generic "we're an action show!" Dear god I hope that's not what drew people in. Although, if it's between hearing that the music was the draw or the voices or dialog, I might be inclined to believe that the musice was the lesser evil.

If there had only been the Kikuchi score, I'm absolutely positive that DBZ would've been a massive success. Maybe some Faulconer fans wouldn't have watched, but I'm sure there would've been others to take their place. Last point about the score, you can't dismiss Dragon Ball. DBZ isn't a radical departure from DB. It would seem that way when you compare DBZ to the early stuff such as the first episodes, but the show expanded and changed over time. The saiyans was a natural extention of where DB ended, and yet they need two radically different scores? It doesn't cohere.

You make a good point about the Ultimate Uncut stuff, but once again notice that it was better the closer it got to the original. It's not an accident.

[penguintruth]

It doesn't matter how "dated" the original score was. You don't like it? Fine. Talk about how you dislike it.

But that's the intended score for the show. If you replace it, you've defaced the show. If Funimation couldn't sell the show as it was intended, they never should have taken it on to begin with.

[Attitudefan]

*SNIP*.

Well said! I feel the exact same way as you do.

[Blade]

But that's the intended score for the show. If you replace it, you've defaced the show. If Funimation couldn't sell the show as it was intended, they never should have taken it on to begin with.

I'm sorry, but some of the things you say are just incredibly bigoted. On one hand you lambast people for outlining (quite often perfectly viable) opinions that you deem to be illogical, as you did a few posts prior, yet on the other you have no qualms in making remarks like that.

It's utterly ridiculous to suggest that a company has no right to adapt a show to a foreign audience by replacing its score if they deem the original score to be unsuitable or dated. I think sometimes you need to take a step back and look beyond your staunch, and I assume deeply emotional, connection to your opinions on the subject before engaging in these sorts of topics, as quite frankly it does little but imbue a poisonous atmosphere into the debate.

You know, I get it - we all do, everyone on this forum is perfectly aware - you hate Funimation's dub and treat the original as sacra saint. And that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - but not for one second does that make your spirited reposts of even the slightest defense of the dub and the replacement score valid as unshakable fact.