Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[ABED]

Here's my question about the "dated" comments, if the original music is dated, and the animation is dated (as I've read on this forum), then what sense does it make to contemporize the score? It's like putting current CG in Star Wars (ie bad idea since it sticks out like a sore thumb)

[90sDBZ]

And about the whole "People don't watch a show for the music" thing. I have to disagree. While music alone can't make a show it is the heart and soul of it and is equally as important as the animation. Take movies like the horror film Halloween for example. I remember watching a documentary were the makers talked about the music and said they originally watched the movie with no music and didn't find it scary in the slightest

Not what I meant in the least. You'll get no argument that score is important in setting mood, but in terms of getting people to see something, and see it again, how many people will pay good money just to listen to a score? The score is just one isolated element, and has to come together with the visuals and the dialog as a whole. It's important but I don't think Faulconer's score was the main draw to the dub.

I don't know how many people go back to watch an entire movie for a score especially when you can buy the score, which I have. I think Danny Elfman's them is great but I wouldn't watch an entire film, or pay money to see it simply for the music, nor an entire TV show. It has to have a story and characters I find compelling. Who in the world would sit through nearly 300 episodes just to hear the music? It's the music in conjunction with the images and dialog.

Faulconer did put some thought but it's bland, lifeless, cheap, etc. And as many have said, he didn't get the show. Bulma's theme misses her character completely, and he doesn't get the intention of many scenes such as Goku transforming into SS1 and 3. I don't know what's dated or not, but the Kikuchi score fit that show to a T. While I don't love all of Kai's score it still sounds more professional, and there are a number great cues. Kikuchi's score elevates and supports the show. That "rockin" guitar riff is so generic "we're an action show!" Dear god I hope that's not what drew people in. Although, if it's between hearing that the music was the draw or the voices or dialog, I might be inclined to believe that the musice was the lesser evil.

If there had only been the Kikuchi score, I'm absolutely positive that DBZ would've been a massive success. Maybe some Faulconer fans wouldn't have watched, but I'm sure there would've been others to take their place. Last point about the score, you can't dismiss Dragon Ball. DBZ isn't a radical departure from DB. It would seem that way when you compare DBZ to the early stuff such as the first episodes, but the show expanded and changed over time. The saiyans was a natural extention of where DB ended, and yet they need two radically different scores? It doesn't cohere.

You make a good point about the Ultimate Uncut stuff, but once again notice that it was better the closer it got to the original. It's not an accident.

Well you do have a point that people can just go and buy a score separately but I personally don't get the same enjoyment from just listening to a score that I do from experiencing it along with visuals to make it overall more enjoyable. I feel like the visuals help the score just as much as the score helps the visuals. And although many won't watch a show for a score to begin with it can be an important factor in adding rewatchability to the show. I personally feel like the Faulconer score does just this and makes me want to keep revisiting the show and I have no doubt that others feel the same as many say they've tried and just can't watch it without Faulconer. I can enjoy other scores to an extent but most of them (with the exception of Levy) don't grip me the same as Faulconer. Most of the other scores seem to just fill the purpose of being background music, which is fine but I personally feel that Faulconer's score adds a whole new layer to it all. I can understand and respect that others might not want a score to be anything more than just background music and don't want it competing with the story for attention but that's just my taste.

An example I can think of is Rocky 4. While every other film in the series used mostly orchestral music, Rocky 4 took a different approach and used a very different score with several songs playing throughout the movie, many of which did a great job of complementing the visuals, particularly during the training and fight scenes. Although some critics say it was over the top and felt like the movie was carried by the music and felt almost like a music video the music is still one of the things that people remember the most about that movie and it's also worth mentioning it is by far the most financially successful film in the series even compared to the first one which arguably has a better story and used orchestral music. I feel like Faulconer's music in DBZ often has a similar effect.

I really don't see how Faulconer's score can be called bland or lifeless. The theme he played when Goku met Goten added more emotion to what was just another scene in the Japanese version. As for your point about Goku's Super Saiyan transformation it certainly did go for a different feel. I personally feel like having a more heroic feel was appropriate. Goku had been struggling in vain to save the universe and his friends from an unstoppable tirant. He had survived Goku's final resort and all hope seemed lost. Then a miracle happened and Goku transformed. I know some feel like it should have stayed as a darker, more unsettling scene, which also works well, but to me it was obvious that any plot twist or development at that point would be a good thing for the good guys. I mean it's not like Goku was actually going to get a dangerous illness right there and then when he was already down and out. To me, once the change began in him it was obvious that this would be the miracle that allowed him to beat Frieza.

You keep saying how Faulconer's music doesn't fit with the animation but I feel like the animation of DBZ is flexible per say, in that a single scene could work well in many very different ways depending on the audio. The animation even works fine for the comedy approach that TFS take in the Abridged episodes.

And I fail to see how Yamamoto was any more professional than Faulconer and his team. At least the Faulconer score was actually made by Faulconer and his team and was made primarily for use in the dub of Dragonball Z. The Yamamoto score was mostly just lifted straight from other people's work and was never intended for Dragonball. And when you consider all the talk that's been going on about what's morally right and wrong just remember that Toei allowed Yamamoto to just take other people's music and make cheap changes to it and pass it off as his own. Even if Toei weren't aware of it it's still down to them for not checking it. Plagiarism is in no way professional and is more cheap and morally wrong than anything Funi has ever done yet Toei still don't get the stick that Funi does.

[Blade]

Here's my question about the "dated" comments, if the original music is dated, and the animation is dated (as I've read on this forum), then what sense does it make to contemporize the score? It's like putting current CG in Star Wars (ie bad idea since it sticks out like a sore thumb)

The biggest problem with the original Japanese score is largely the audio quality, which by 20xx American broadcast standards wasn't particularly on par. Replacing the entire audio track undoubtedly does a number of things to influence the impression that the show leaves on the audience.

[penguintruth]

You know, I get it - we all do, everyone on this forum is perfectly aware - you hate Funimation's dub and treat the original as sacra saint

There are plenty of problems in the original version of the show.

But it's not Funimation's place to go about "improving" the show. The show, as it is intended, owns those mistakes. Those mistakes are still mistakes, but they are the mistakes made by the people who made the show. They're ingrained into the show, they're part of the show. It's fine to complain about them, I know I do. I certainly don't think of DBZ as a perfect product. But Funimation, in its arrogance, decided that DBZ was their show, and so they changed it to suit their desires. I'm against that for any show and by any anime licensor. It's just that DBZ happens to be the subject of this forum. I'm likewise passionate about maintaining a close reflection of Japanese versions of all anime.

As for opinions of the original score itself, yes, I enjoy it, but I don't defend it simply because I enjoy it, but because it's the score intended for the show. If it was a terrible score, I'd still be against replacing it. But my opinion on the score itself, while irrelevant to the discussion, is that it feels more natural, being a mostly orchestral soundtrack and suiting the operatic, wuxia core of the story.

[ABED]

What layers does he add? All I hear is the superficial.

Rocky 4 feels the most dated. There are some good songs, but the score isn't that good. Are you arguing that Rocky 4's success was due to the music and not the America vs USSR cold war stuff? I like Rocky 4 and the fight was pretty damn cool. Besides, ask anyone about Rocky's music, and either "eye of the tiger" or "gonna fly now" is gonna be the first thing that comes to mind, not "No easy way out".

Goku was gonna beat Freeza but the question is would the power be his downfall.

Abridged isn't an adaptation of DB, it's a parody.

To me the Faulconer score just sounds like some guy with a synth in his basement. Professional wasn't the right word. I'm trying to convey in another way that I thought Yamamoto's score (not everything was plagarized to my knowledge) sounded grander and less something any guy could do with an inexpensive synth.

The biggest problem with the original Japanese score is largely the audio quality, which by 20xx American broadcast standards wasn't particularly on par. Replacing the entire audio track undoubtedly does a number of things to influence the impression that the show leaves on the audience.

The audio quality of the season 3 dub wasn't particularly good either, and that didn't stop millions of kids from watching it. I just don't see how the music sounded any more dated than the animation or why it's a bad thing.

But my opinion on the score itself, while irrelevant to the discussion, is that it feels more natural, being a mostly orchestral soundtrack and suiting the operatic, wuxia core of the story.

Well put.

[Blade]

But it's not Funimation's place to go about "improving" the show. The show, as it is intended, owns those mistakes. Those mistakes are still mistakes, but they are the mistakes made by the people who made the show. They're ingrained into the show, they're part of the show. It's fine to complain about them, I know I do. I certainly don't think of DBZ as a perfect product. But Funimation, in its arrogance, decided that DBZ was their show, and so they changed it to suit their desires. I'm against that for any show and by any anime licensor. It's just that DBZ happens to be the subject of this forum. I'm likewise passionate about maintaining a close reflection of Japanese versions of all anime.

See postmodernism.

I completely reject the notion that to adapt an anime into English by replacing the score and adding Western cultural elements is arrogant. Frankly I think that it's arrogant to suggest that it's somehow improper to make such alterations, as if the original is a sacred, untouchable entity that can only be blemished in the hands of the unworthy.

Cultural regurgitation in media and art is a perfectly natural, human thing. The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball that millions of people have positively engaged with and remember fondly. I think that the sooner that you come to terms with this, the better.

[ABED]

The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball

What new level of meaning?

[Attitudefan]

Except, I'm sure you would be pretty ticked if you paid for a movie at the theatres. Lets say that where you lived received a dub of a foreign film, but everything was changed in the dub: the script, the sound effects, and the music all changed. It wouldn't be The Terminator 5 that you got, but a cheap rebranding/"remaking" of the film. It's not right. A dub is a dub, it is not meant to take "creative" liberties.

[ABED]

Except, I'm sure you would be pretty ticked if you paid for a movie at the theatres. Lets say that where you lived received a dub of a foreign film, but everything was changed in the dub: the script, the sound effects, and the music all changed. It wouldn't be The Terminator 5 that you got, but a cheap rebranding/"remaking" of the film. It's not right. A dub is a dub, it is not meant to take "creative" liberties.

I agree. Even if though Dragon Ball doesn't have the level of integration of say "the wire", the dub shouldn't be changing things and adding elements like Crane Hermit and Tao Pai Pai being on the outs.

[Gyt Kaliba]

See postmodernism.

I completely reject the notion that to adapt an anime into English by replacing the score and adding Western cultural elements is arrogant. Frankly I think that it's arrogant to suggest that it's somehow improper to make such alterations, as if the original is a sacred, untouchable entity that can only be blemished in the hands of the unworthy.

Cultural regurgitation in media and art is a perfectly natural, human thing. The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball that millions of people have positively engaged with and remember fondly. I think that the sooner that you come to terms with this, the better.

I'd have to agree with Blade here on this. While, ideally, a dub shouldn't change the original music or make grand changes to the show itself - because I do agree with you there penguin, that if a show is good in it's original form, it ought to not need these changes - but the idea that making these changes is some kind of arrogant, 'crime against nature' or something, is just silly IMO. FUNi paid to bring the show over here, and apparently one of the things they paid for, or was run by Toei, or was okay-ed one way or the other, were those changes in musical score. Not once did this ever come up as an issue with the Japanese owners of the property. Ergo...no crime committed on any level, and as the show isn't a physical entity, it can't really be a victim of a moral crime either, so...yeah.

[Blade]

The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball

What new level of meaning?

The show, in it's dubbed Funimation form, with Falconer's score and all of the dialogue changes, is what a large quantity of people in the Western world regard as being 'Dragonball Z' - the definite article. To take something away from the Funimation dub, such as the score, can provide an alien experience for people who have grown up and only thus far encountered this version. The musical score which is attached to moving images adds a whole level of dramatic vectorisation and portrayal to the visual elements, in turn imbuing different meanings through musical communication and connotation.

[ABED]

The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball

What new level of meaning?

The show, in it's dubbed Funimation form, with Falconer's score and all of the dialogue changes, is what a large quantity of people in the Western world regard as being 'Dragonball Z' - the definite article. To take something away from the Funimation dub, such as the score, can provide an alien experience for people who have grown up and only thus far encountered this version. The musical score which is attached to moving images adds a whole level of dramatic vectorisation and portrayal to the visual elements, in turn imbuing different meanings through musical communication and connotation.

And they would've gotten a different meaning if they stayed closer to the original and not added things such as Crane Hermit's sibling troubles, or Kuririn trying to sound cool all the time, or Goku's father being a brilliant scientist. The meaning they got was incorrect because the dialog and music often missed the mark with the visuals. One of Dragon Ball Z's biggest appeals was how different it was from anything on the air at the time. So why try and make it the same?

I remember reading some interview with Faulconer and him saying something akin to Goku being a "rock guy"

[TheBlackPaladin]

But Funimation, in its arrogance, decided that DBZ was their show, and so they changed it to suit their desires.

I'm not entirely certain why Toei themselves keep getting taken out of the equation here, because doing that creates a somewhat distorted version of the truth. FUNimation changed the show to suit both their desires and Toei's. Toei approved their changes. 'Cause they want money. They made the show to sell toys. If those changes were approved by Toei, I don't see how that could be considered arrogance. Rather, FUNimation's changes strike me as a concern that the show would not have been financially profitable otherwise, which would have been bad for both Toei and FUNimation since, if we're going to talk about desires...that desire was, plainly put, money.

It could be argued--and for that matter, it has been argued--that that concern was unwarranted, but as much as I don't like the changes, I would never say that those changes stemmed from arrogance.

[penguintruth]

I completely reject the notion that to adapt an anime into English by replacing the score and adding Western cultural elements is arrogant. Frankly I think that it's arrogant to suggest that it's somehow improper to make such alterations, as if the original is a sacred, untouchable entity that can only be blemished in the hands of the unworthy.

Cultural regurgitation in media and art is a perfectly natural, human thing. The Funimation adaptation has added a whole new level of meaning to Dragonball that millions of people have positively engaged with and remember fondly. I think that the sooner that you come to terms with this, the better.

What a hollow apologia for what Funimation did. All they did was water it down because they felt American children were f***ing stupid.

If it was such a great thing that they did, why don't you see them doing such things to other anime they license? Because DBZ needed it more or because they realize they made huge mistakes and decided to do their jobs right?

That they don't do what they did to DBZ to any other show is proof positive that they know as well as you do that they screwed up.

This ex post-facto defense of what they did with DBZ is shameless and vacant. It humiliates us all.

[Fionordequester]

What a hallow apologia for what Funimation did. All they did was water it down because they felt American children were f***ing stupid. If it was such a great thing that they did, why don't you see them doing such things to other anime they license?

I would guess because the anime market has changed, and that people place much more value on the accuracy of a dub than they did in the past. After all, 4Kids initally did pretty well, but now...well, not so much.

What new level of meaning?

Goku's speech to Vegeta about why they should fuse was even more convincing and meaningful in the dub version, Majin Vegeta got some AWESOME lines and monologues, I actually thought that Goku's interactions with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber were even more sweet and charming in FUNI's version than in the Japanese version (Plus we don't have "Of course, I want to be strong enough that no one can beat me. But Gohan? I want you to be even stronger than me!), Trunk's got an awesome narration about how Vegeta inspired him to train harder than ever when describing his time in that same chamber with his father, etc.

And for whatever faults the Faulconer score, I don't see how anybody could possibly watch the whole thing and possibly conclude that the score was bland and emotionless. I have too many examples to count, but to quickly post a few scenes where the dub music elevated the show to much greater heights (and yes, I watched the Japanese versions for all of these to compare)

Hercule Tries to Reach out to Super Buu: http://www.viddler.com/v/a9c946c2
SSJ Gohan Powers Up Against Cell: http://www.viddler.com/v/e9123ba7
Gohan Dreams of Goku: http://www.viddler.com/v/b96440a1

And unfortunately, I don't have the video for this last example, so you'll simply have to do with a song clip instead. Go to 4:12 of this video here, and you'll hear the music that played while Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb on Namek, composed by cRookie_monster himself. Nothing any musician has ever done even comes close to what this song did for those scenes in my opinion.

Goku's Spirit Bomb Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

EDIT: Oh yes, and I'd be loathe to not also show this scene from when Planet Namek explodes. It is in my opinion far more horrifying than the Japanese music (and also note the slight echo on Yamcha's scream...if in fact that's not just my headphones)...

Goku Namek Explodes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CYG8gk64Bs

[ABED]

There are few good additions made by the dub but for every one good one, I can name stuff that's way worse. Yes, most of it is from seasons 1 - 3 and into 4, but that's a significant chunk of the dub and the bad is SOOOO bad that it swamps whatever good they did by the end. Case in point, Vegeta's death speech to Goku, Goku telling Ginyu "it's bad Karma", Goku's weak mercy speech to Kuririn to stop him from killing Vegeta. Majin Vegeta's monologue isn't that different in the original.

Please call it the Room of Spirit and Time. Hyperbolic time chamber makes it sound mechanical when it's a mystical room. Yet another meaningless change.

That music does absolutely nothing for me. To quote Rupert Giles, "It's not music, it's just, uh, meaningless sounds."

[Fionordequester]

There are few good additions made by the dub but for every one good one, I can name stuff that's way worse. Yes, most of it is from seasons 1 - 3 and into 4, but that's a significant chunk of the dub and the bad is SOOOO bad that it swamps whatever good they did by the end. Case in point, Vegeta's death speech to Goku, Goku telling Ginyu "it's bad Karma", Goku's weak mercy speech to Kuririn to stop him from killing Vegeta. Majin Vegeta's monologue isn't that different in the original.

I guess then it's a matter of your willingness to move on from that, which I honestly never really had trouble with. I own Dragon Ball Z Kai AND the Orange Bricks, which have professional subtitles by Steve Simmons, so I guess I can't really understand what you guys had to go through back in the day.

Please call it the Room of Spirit and Time. Hyperbolic time chamber makes it sound mechanical when it's a mystical room. Yet another meaningless change.

Sounds good. I'll try to remember not to do that when you're online, though...I gotta say, the "Extremely Overexaggerated Time Chamber" is a somewhat appropriate name for it given what Trunk's reported seeing in there

That music does absolutely nothing for me. To quote Rupert Giles, "It's not music, it's just, uh, meaningless sounds."

Huh...oh well. I guess maybe our ears are different. Some people can hear certain frequencies and the like better than others, or can be more sensitive to what they can hear, because I can say pretty much the same exact thing about a large chunk of the Kikuchi score (don't worry though, I can ALSO say the exact same thing about pretty much every other DBZ score besides the Japanese GT score, Kenji Yamamoto, and to a lesser extent, the Westwood dub, cartoonish though it may have been). I should know, I'm planning on majoring in Psychology...but you know, out of curiosity, would you like to list some scenes that YOU felt were extremely elevated by the music?

[ABED]

There are a number of scenes that were elevated in the Kikuchi score such as Goku's arrival to save Gohan from Nappa (even the Ocean dub score was excellent in that moment), Goku's "I'm Son Goku, the Super Saiyan!" speech in both Z and Kai, I love Piccolo's theme, Upa's theme right after Tao Pai Pai murders Bora, the music that plays after Tenshinhan wins the 22nd Tournament, any time Mezase Tenkaichi plays, Spirit vs Spirit gives me the goosebumps...

If you like Faulconer's music, more power to you. I don't, and don't think it should've been part of the show. The only reason I can remember any of it is because of the number of times I saw the episodes.

I've moved on from those days, but I'm simply saying that the dub was awful then. I've admitted that I thought it got better after a while.

[Blade]

What a hollow apologia for what Funimation did. All they did was water it down because they felt American children were f***ing stupid.

If it was such a great thing that they did, why don't you see them doing such things to other anime they license? Because DBZ needed it more or because they realize they made huge mistakes and decided to do their jobs right?

That they don't do what they did to DBZ to any other show is proof positive that they know as well as you do that they screwed up.

I've never said that Funimation's changes were great, or that I even approve of or enjoy them. All I've said is that can I understand both why they felt the need to make the changes and that I entirely reject your staunch, venomous assertions, that they had no right or license to make them.

Were they necessary? No. Did they do anything to harm the success of the dub? No. Are the changes of noticeable detriment, or of disgust to fans who have never seen the Japanese version? No. Was Funimation out of line to make creative interjections? No, they had the right to do more or less whatever they pleased.

This ex post-facto defense of what they did with DBZ is shameless and vacant. It humiliates us all.

I'm attempting to provide an objective position from which to consider the relative merits and failings of Funimation's dub, in the face of what seems to be unshakeable, emotional and deeply ingrained vitriol against even the slightest positive connotation ascribed to it. This humiliation is entirely your own.

[Attitudefan]

Post-modernism is purely laughable anyways. That, and it doesn't justify the changes to a dub. I don't think that DB should be subjected to fulfil one's philosophical needs. It is a product for consumers and by that definition, the consumer should get what is advertised. The consumer should receive the REAL product and not some re-imagining of it.