Did Dragon Ball kill the classic Battle Shonen manga?

[Mewzard]

I was recently responding to a topic in GameFAQs (I know, not the best place to be), when a thought occurred to me: Dragon Ball seemed to Herald the end of the classic Battle Shonen manga.

What I mean by that is that how the Battle Shonens were done at the time of Dragon Ball and before...we rarely really see anything like them, unless someone is going for a classic style in their manga or is directly inspired by an old series. Even series like that always end up with some elements of the new despite their old influence. I have to ask: What happened? And was this change a good thing?

Of course, the most obvious answer is that the popularity of Dragon Ball had editors push old writers to try to mimic its success while new writers in the next generation were most inspired by Dragon Ball, but this seems almost too complete a change. For the most part, you only see the classics in series that were alive at the time before the change, or sequels to those series.

Was it a good thing for so many series to try to grab the success of Dragon Ball, and toss aside so many formulas for one? Nowadays it seems like so many series in shonen share tons of tropes. In many classic Battle Manga, I don't remember a single Tsundere, extreme amounts of fanservice, or stuff like that, yet now it's almost impossible to find shonen without them.

You look at series like Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya (which define classic Battle Shonen for me), and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (Which went from influenced by Fist of the North Star to it's own thing, outside of Dragon Ball)...you see nothing like these wonderful series anymore outside of their current incarnations. The closest I could think of would be Toriko (which feels like it came from a bit of that Fist of the North Star line to me).

While Dragon Ball was a great series...I ask if you think it mostly killed the classic Battle Shonen style manga, and if you think where the Shonen manga went after Dragon Ball's influence was a good thing or not.

[Wobbuffet]

I'd say Evangelion also had its fault. Dragon Ball enforced the stereotype of the dumb protagonist who likes to eat. Evangelion enforced lots of stereotypes: the tsundere (Asuka), the loser protagonist who people relate to (Shinji), the girl with no personality (Rei) and so on.
I think that spineless protagonists are even worse than dumb protagonists. Have anybody here ever read Mirai Nikki/ Furute Diaries?

[Cursed Lemon]

IHMOtep, Dragonball (especially Z) more or less made it okay for shonen to be completely inundated by cliches. Whereas I and others here likely view DBZ as a mostly non-serious thing, that style may have been taken to be what other young viewers thought to be legitimate substance and entertainment...ultimately leading to that kind of style BEING the substance that entertained them, in a weird self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing.

Dragonball Z and other extremely popular manga/anime of the same sort that came shortly after it (such as Rurouni Kenshin) can definitely be held to have turned the shonen genre into the kind of mind-numbing, trope-drenched stuff it is today.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball may have had plenty of tropes but it still stands out and has a flavor to it.

[AgitoZ]

I think it was Saint Seiya gaining popularity and Fist of the North Star ending that killed the traditional battle shonen. Seiya was one of the first series to get a particularly large subset of fans that were girls. As creators and publishers marketed more and more to that audience, the boy's club that were publications like Weekly Shonen Jump changed. FotNS ending was the final nail on the changing demographics as myself and a few others see at as a swan song for the "genre".

Dragon Ball is just stuck somewhere in the middle.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

As someone completely out of the loop on the evolution of the genre, what exactly did Jojo, First of the North Star, and its contemporaries have that Dragon Ball killed?

[JulieYBM]

As someone completely out of the loop on the evolution of the genre, what exactly did Jojo, First of the North Star, and its contemporaries have that Dragon Ball killed?

They took themselves much more seriously than Dragon Ball did, essentially being tales of badass manly-men doing badass things.

Stuff like Toriko and One Piece are the opposite end of the cater-to-boys spectrum. They're overly designed to be child friendly and seem superficially inspired by a lot of "what people remember about Dragon Ball" rather than really being like Dragon Ball (which was often just as sour as an older shounen comic could get). Bleach, with its recent indulgence in gore and other dramatic imagery, seems to be harkening back to the pre-Dragon Ball influenced days, in contrast.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

As someone completely out of the loop on the evolution of the genre, what exactly did Jojo, First of the North Star, and its contemporaries have that Dragon Ball killed?

They took themselves much more seriously than Dragon Ball did, essentially being tales of badass manly-men doing badass things.

I had figured it was the tone and older characters; they're really the only two things I could immediately put my finger on that stand out compared to post-Dragon Ball stuff. Also explains why Stardust Crusaders has become the most widely-referenced arc of Jojo abroad, if not at home; it's fits Dragon Ball's mold the smoothest.

[Rocketman]

Stuff like Toriko and One Piece are the opposite end of the cater-to-boys spectrum. They're overly designed to be child friendly and seem superficially inspired by a lot of "what people remember about Dragon Ball" rather than really being like Dragon Ball (which was often just as sour as an older shounen comic could get).

Which pops up here a lot too, with lots of people going "Dragonball was so much lighthearted shonen adventure~~".

[hleV]

Toriyama rewrote the "rules" of Battle Shonen.

[Mewzard]

I think it was Saint Seiya gaining popularity and Fist of the North Star ending that killed the traditional battle shonen. Seiya was one of the first series to get a particularly large subset of fans that were girls. As creators and publishers marketed more and more to that audience, the boy's club that were publications like Weekly Shonen Jump changed. FotNS ending was the final nail on the changing demographics as myself and a few others see at as a swan song for the "genre".

Dragon Ball is just stuck somewhere in the middle.

But Saint Seiya was ALWAYS marketed towards boys. Not with fanservice (Kurumada almost never did intentional fanservice at all), or with jokes (comedy was very minimal). It was 28 volumes of people fighting to the death in violent holy wars and civil wars. The only reason it got a large female following was that Kuru's art style was different than the norm (one could say pretty boys, though that might be due to his more simplified look of humans; the best part of his art in my view was the detailed armors, attacks, and mythological depictions...backgrounds were pretty good too when used). He had gotten popular before Toriyama even did Dr. Slump, having a hit with Ring ni Kakero, a boxing manga. Honestly, the guy was clearly influenced by Rocky, given how much he loved to make his main characters the underdogs who took many beatdowns, and keep getting up until they can pull off a win. Honestly, Dragon Ball might as well be a pure comedy by comparison (Toriyama is a gag manga guy who gave battle manga a shot, Kurumada is a battle manga guy who cares not to do otherwise in his thus far 39 year long career).

I had figured it was the tone and older characters; they're really the only two things I could immediately put my finger on that stand out compared to post-Dragon Ball stuff. Also explains why Stardust Crusaders has become the most widely-referenced arc of Jojo abroad, if not at home; it's fits Dragon Ball's mold the smoothest.

I think you're right, that's one potential reason. I still find it funny that people think of 3 so often (probably due to memes and the games), when I would say at least Battle Tendency, Diamond is Unbreakable, and Steel Ball Run are better than Stardust Crusaders (I also love Phantom Blood, but as the first part, it was a bit rough...that said, I love how it starts so much like a family drama over a newly invited guest to the family and inheritance before becoming a Vampire vs Martial Artists story, lol). The manga is nice because it covers so many different styles, yet does them all pretty good (even the recent anime was good at adapting it I feel, thus far).

Toriyama rewrote the "rules" of Battle Shonen.

That's the problem: I like Dragon Ball, but I also liked a lot of the popular jump manga of the time, yet you just rarely see them anymore. I really loved Fist of the North Star, it was an awesome read for me. Yet outside of stuff like Bo-bobo being a parody of it, you don't see much of anything like it outside of when Buronson and Tetsuo Hara made Fist of the Blue Sky as a prequel.

I mean, all the big Jump titles mostly left Weekly Shonen Jump after that. Saint Seiya went to Weekly Shonen Champion, Fist of the North Star went to Weekly Comic Bunch, Kinnikuman went to Weekly Playboy, even Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (which stayed with WSJ the longest) eventually went to Ultra Jump.

Every single one of those series was in Weekly Shonen Jump in 1987 (the only year they all shared the book sadly), yet now, they all went elsewhere, while Dragon Ball's massive influence keeps going in WSJ, even when it was resting for so long (not now though, it's going strong, lol).

[AgitoZ]

But Saint Seiya was ALWAYS marketed towards boys. Not with fanservice (Kurumada almost never did intentional fanservice at all), or with jokes (comedy was very minimal). It was 28 volumes of people fighting to the death in violent holy wars and civil wars. The only reason it got a large female following was that Kuru's art style was different than the norm (one could say pretty boys, though that might be due to his more simplified look of humans; the best part of his art in my view was the detailed armors, attacks, and mythological depictions...backgrounds were pretty good too when used).

I never said it was intentional. But later series certainly were aiming for a more widespread appeal. Girlies don't want to see big muscle men see who has bigger pecs, they wanna see soft cherry boys talking about friendship and stuff.

I mean, all the big Jump titles mostly left Weekly Shonen Jump after that. Saint Seiya went to Weekly Shonen Champion, Fist of the North Star went to Weekly Comic Bunch, Kinnikuman went to Weekly Playboy, even Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (which stayed with WSJ the longest) eventually went to Ultra Jump.

Every single one of those series was in Weekly Shonen Jump in 1987 (the only year they all shared the book sadly), yet now, they all went elsewhere, while Dragon Ball's massive influence keeps going in WSJ, even when it was resting for so long (not now though, it's going strong, lol).

They just followed their audience outta Jump. The material isn't really different than it was nearly 20 years ago, but the readership certainly is.

[Mewzard]

I never said it was intentional. But later series certainly were aiming for a more widespread appeal. Girlies don't want to see big muscle men see who has bigger pecs, they wanna see soft cherry boys talking about friendship and stuff.

They just followed their audience outta Jump. The material isn't really different than it was nearly 20 years ago, but the readership certainly is.

Later series did, yeah. Both Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya had elements of that friendship/brotherhood, but they generally did them in more awesome ways. Kenshiro might cry over a fallen friend...but they were usually manly tears after he defeated and then dealt a fatal blow to said friend. Shiryu might talk about friendship because he had earlier slit his wrists and bled out half the blood in his body to get his and Seiya's Cloths repaired, been in a coma for a week, and went back to fighting despite being so blood lost, and using a technique to defeat a foe to help his friends, knowing it would reverse the flow of blood in his body and, at that level of blood loss, cause all the veins in his body to rupture (which did happen, Hirotaka Suzuoki had a badass character to play).

You might be right at following their audience, but the material DID change. Series like Fist of the North Star and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure couldn't be done now as they were in Shonen magazines. Fist of the Blue Sky was started in a Seinen magazine, and JJBA was moved to Ultra Jump (which is also Seinen). Hell, Kinnikuman's sequel was moved to Weekly Playboy, lol. Of them all, Saint Seiya's the only one still in a Shonen magazine, but Kuru took the series away from Jump and Shueisha.

Honestly, it's probably both. The changing standards with the moving audience is probably to blame.

[Looneygamemaster]

If I may ask, what exactly is "classic Battle Shonen?" Is it the hyper-realistic stuff like Fist of the North Star, where someone's head is exploding every panel?

I loathe gratuitous violence. Not only as part of my religion, but because it can be a poor substitute for actual storytelling. If Dragon Ball codifying Shonen Battle as "goofy and fantastical" has reduced that, all the better I say.

Mind you, I don't want it to lead to creative sterility.

[Kiyza]

If I may ask, what exactly is "classic Battle Shonen?" Is it the hyper-realistic stuff like Fist of the North Star, where someone's head is exploding every panel?

I loathe gratuitous violence. Not only as part of my religion, but because it can be a poor substitute for actual storytelling. If Dragon Ball codifying Shonen Battle as "goofy and fantastical" has reduced that, all the better I say.

Mind you, I don't want it to lead to creative sterility.

Essentially, just a different style of action-oriented shounen manga. It's not necessarily hyper-realistic, but the series in question do tend to take themselves more seriously than Dragon Ball, or many of its spiritual successors. What people are talking about have a very different tone from more modern series in the same genre/demographic. As mentioned, series like Fist of the North Star and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure fit the mold and had a lot more emphasis on "manly men doing manly things", which isn't as prevalent these days. They can be violent at times, yes, but I don't think that's the core difference between the styles.

[Looneygamemaster]

Fair enough--and looking at my post, I might have come off as harsher then I intended. Sorry.

[Mewzard]

Don't get me wrong, violence was more common place at the time (though that's likely due to differing standards), but there was a spirit to some of these titles that is much less common now. When Dragon Ball came in, it was a good thing, adding diversity. We had so many different kinds of series at the time...it just feels less so now.

Dragon Ball is good and I'm glad it inspired some creators...but maybe it inspired too many, and too few fans of the other styles went onto Jump. I just wish there would be more variety of stories (and maybe the readership does too, given the nosedive WSJ subscriptions took in the last 15-20 years; we're almost at late 70s level of subscriptions, when it peaked out during Dragon Ball's run).