Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[Fionordequester]

Alright, I have a question. People keep bringing up that Dragon Ball Z Movie's 1-3 had accurate scripting and music, and yet nobody minded. What are you basing this off of? Do we know of the ratings it had compared to the tv series?

And should you be correct in that no changes were necessary for it to be a success...my question to you is "while that may be true, how could FUNI have possibly known that at the time?". Oh sure we now know AFTER THE FACT that it wasn't necessary, but the fact of the matter is, when the vast majority of the dubbing companies around you are employing the same practices, and there doesn't seem to (at least as far as you can see) be anything morally wrong about it, why wouldn't you follow the leader? While I'm not a business major, I would guess that if you want a company to break away from the norm, you have to come up with some pretty solid evidence, and it doesn't seem as though FUNI had that for anything except Movies 1-3.


Now then, if I may ask a favor from both Penguin, ABED, and Blade, would you PLEASE stop doing this stupid "embarrasing us all" thing? Passionate debate is ok, but when it escalates to the point where you're attacking EACH OTHER rather than the arguments, it makes everybody look slightly dumber, but more importantly, it brings a poisonous atmosphere to everything.

[Blade]

Dr. Who didn't require lingual translation either, neither does Sherlock. It plays fine.

No, I think you misunderstood. In my post I referred to the foreign language adaptations, into languages such as German, Japanese and Spanish.

We weren't arguing mechanics, you were talking about cultural references.

How many people in the UK got all the cultural references? It didn't affect the show's popularity, and it wouldn't matter because DBZ doesn't have a bunch of Japanese pop culture references that I'm aware of. If there are, and I missed them, that's proof that the show works regardless. So what if American kids don't know the meaning behind the names of the Ginyu Special Corp? Does it hurt the show? No.

Like I said previously, American cultural references are more-or-less entirely understood in the United Kingdom due to cultural cross pollination as a consequence of the large quantity of American television shows and media that the United Kingdom imports. The majority of children's programming in the United Kingdom, especially animated, is imported from America - the same cannot be said for non-English language material from cultures who do not share the same socio-cultural tropes and memes.

I told you that kids were familiar with "grey" heroes. It's ridiculous that FUNi felt the need to take away things that made Goku unique. DBZ stood out, but you are arguing that it was successful because they did their best to make it more like everything else.

In regard to heroic portrayals for young audiences there isn't much of a grey area at all, or at least, there's nothing in comparison to that which you can find in Japanese anime. Characters like Batman, who are morally questionable characters within graphic novels, are not portrayed as such in animated media aimed at younger target audiences - especially not in the present day or in the time period that the Funimation adaptation took place. They're instead watered down to heroic caricatures as to cater for that specific demographic - which is a trend that seems to increase year-on-year as censorship regulations are tightened, with the notion of what can be deemed suitable or acceptable to broadcast to younger viewers a particularly touchy subject. Regardless of if you find the practice to be agreeable or not, the impact that Funimation's adaptation of Goku's character had upon popular culture was undoubtedly shaped by the decisions they made in adapting him, therefore partially ascribing the character's states side popularity to those decisions.

[Blade]

Now then, if I may ask a favor from both Penguin, ABED, and Blade, would you PLEASE stop doing this stupid "embarrasing us all" thing? Passionate debate is ok, but when it escalates to the point where you're attacking EACH OTHER rather than the arguments, it makes everybody look slightly dumber, but more importantly, it brings a poisonous atmosphere to everything.

I completely agree with this statement. Whilst my responses to ABED and Penguintruth were in light of them originally making those remarks to me, I do apologise for rising to them and granting them a response as it only served to add to the poisonous atmosphere that was forming.

[penguintruth]

I think you're reading too much into Funimation's motivations, Blade. They didn't really care about DBZ's story, characters, or themes. All they cared about was making money. And fine, if they want to, they can do that, they're a business, not a charity. But it doesn't make what they did to the show right or with artistic merit.

[ABED]

"are not portrayed as such in animated media aimed at younger target audiences - especially not in the present day or in the time period that the Funimation adaptation took place."

Did you not watch Batman The Animated Series? A question that constantly comes up is whether Batman is responsible for the villains he faces, and it's not just in the graphic novels, but the comics which kids read.

I know why FUNi did those things, but to say that's why Goku became popular is conjecture. There's no way to know for sure if Americans would've rejected Goku unless changes were made. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't.

why wouldn't you follow the leader? While I'm not a business major, I would guess that if you want a company to break away from the norm, you have to come up with some pretty solid evidence, and it doesn't seem as though FUNI had that for anything except Movies 1-3.

There's such a thing as having a competitive advantage. You want to stand out. Here's the problem with things like focus groups and things like that, people only know what they've seen. Unless you show them something new, there's no way to judge if they like it or not. Steve Jobs' business philosophy was just that.

I did misread your statement about importing but I don't think anyone here is calling for keeping the pop culture or cultural references as is. However, all that requires of a good dub is to provide context clues. Kami doesn't have to be a name, nor do they have to call him "god" for American kids to understand that Kami is a position of importance.

the impact that Funimation's adaptation of Goku's character had upon popular culture was undoubtedly shaped by the decisions they made in adapting him, therefore partially ascribing the character's states side popularity to those decisions.

I'm sorry for the insult, guys, but I'm tired of Ad hoc logic. It doesn't neccessarily follow that they changed him, and he was successful, ergo he was successful because they changed him, even if only partially. Just because two events coincide doesn't make it a causal connection. I definitely could've phrased it nicer, but why would you automatically assume that because an exec puts something in a less than favorable time slot that their opinion on the matter is the final word? It's possible that their judgment about the popularity of a show is mistaken or could be proven wrong if given the chance. Putting the show there is a self fulfilling prophecy. It says nothing about the viability of the show beyond one man's (or however many make the decision) opinion. One wonders why they even agreed to show it in the first place if they weren't going to get behind it. Early attempts to bring DB to the states failed but not because the reasons you ascribe to it.

Goku is a different hero, but is he SO different that American kids would've turned off the channel? How many of those academic papers are worth the paper they're printed on? If you've ever read about "Seduction of the Innocent" or heard stories about the way decisions are made by tv execs, then you can probably figure out why I don't think they have much of a clue about what appeals to children.

[Ringworm128]

That's the exact reason why they should've just left it alone! Most people wouldn't give a crap anyway! If you leave it alone, the people who don't care no matter what you do would still be happy plus you'd have the support of the fans who wanted something more accurate! By making all those changes, they did keep the large majority of fans who don't care either way, but they lost a number of fans significant enough that it warranted a release (DBox) geared toward them years later!

Why divide the fanbase by putting so much effort into a new score and a spiced up script when you'd have even more fans by just using the original music and a mostly accurate script?

I somewhat agree but at the end of the day it didn't really mater in the long run. Let's look at the final damage from the dub, we got almost everything in uncut Japanese, DBZ's success helped push anime's success and Funimation's to new levels giving us more anime and great dubs, there's Kai for people who want a more faithful dub and we got a dub we can all laugh at which had some cool musical tracks. We even got a few new voice actors to listen to in other stuff. The only real backlash of the dub is the fanbase being divided but it would probably be like that anyway with the whole "subs vs dubs" thing in anime fandom.

[Blade]

Did you not watch Batman The Animated Series? A question that constantly comes up is whether Batman is responsible for the villains he faces, and it's not just in the graphic novels, but the comics which kids read.

I did, yes, but the style of shows like Batman: The Animated Series fell from fashion as the decade went on. If you were to compare episodes of Batman from the early 90's to the late 90's incarnation the level to which morality issues were watered down or simply not explored is particularly marked. In the present day and age the trend has continued to an alarming rate, have you seen Batman: The Brave and the Bold? Funimation's adaptation of Dragonball Z came at a time when censorship standards were being reigned in, especially with content imported from Japan in the wake of the controversy regarding the depictions of violence in Power Rangers.

The differences between what is culturally acceptable in broadcast in Japan and America cannot be underestimated. Take One Piece for example: here is a show that is aimed at Children and aired on Sunday Mornings in Japan - yet has little qualms overtly exploring issues such as transgender/transexuality. Notions of blood and violence aside, there are a great deal of cultural artifacts that exist within anime that essentially do not translate to anything remotely acceptable by Western broadcasting standards for a similar age range. 'Uncut' episodes of One Piece air in America on late night television slots as essentially they're not suitable for viewing earlier on - which is where 4Kid's dub of One Piece failed so miserably. The show itself simply could not be translated into a format that would be suitable for the target audience that 4Kids were trying to reach, and the mass edits that they carried out to domesticate the show created a product that failed to generate interest from the un-itiated masses. The same cannot be said of Funimation's Dragonball Z dub, which was highly successful.

Now I'm not saying the Dragonball Z and One Piece can be compared like-for-like, but Dragonball Z is also an anime that has take on a distinct feel and style that it has inherited from Japanese culture. These small, yet nevertheless ever-present style indicators, stand to run the risk of leaving a negative impression upon viewers with who have no pre-existing familiarity with the show or the various styles of anime. Funimation's attempts to domesticate Dragonball Z by inserting dialogue elements which are culturally recognisable to Westerners was a deliberate attempt to create a positive impression upon the audience and subvert the risk of alienation.

It's really worth noting here that whilst we as fans of the original have the benefit of hindsight and the ability to compare the two versions, dissect Funimation's changes in micro and easily notice where changes have been made, for the younger un-initiated audience the adaptation was intended for there was no such pre-existing knowledge. The changes therefore will have been un-noticeable to the eye but nevertheless would be subconsciously understood as positive re-enforcement of recognisable socio-cultural information that can serve as an anchor point from which a viewer can put themselves in and take on board alien concepts. This is something that is extremely common in dubbed media across the world and is not to be underestimated as a tool with which to avoid audience alienation. Furthermore, it has been studied in-depth and is known to be highly effective.

[ABED]

Dude, fire bad, tree pretty! Try and dumb it down a little, it's seems like you are showing off. Plus none of that explains why DBZ couldn't be kept more in tact.

DBZ was on cable, and censorship issues pretty much only pertained to violence. I'm absolutely certain that kids could take things such as Kikuchi's score when he transforms into Super Saiyan 3 or 1. You know why Goku would've been popular if he had remained his battle maniac naive loveable self? He punches evil in its stupid face and that's what kids would see. What was so alienating about that moment with that music? DBZ is a straightforward "big bad comes along, good guy eventually wins at the end". There are some nuances but when you boil it down, DBZ is just "good vs evil" the same as American cartoons. You make it out to be more complex than it is and that kids would be turned off by it. What was so different about DBZ that it would've alienated American viewers? Is it because Goku is something they haven't seen before? Is he THAT different from American superheros? Does he not fight and conquer the big bad evil in the very end?

Goku's reasons for doing the right thing might be different than what kids are used to but I don't think that affects things all that much. He does the right things and that's what kids would take away. Instead of making some speech about doing good for the sake of good, his goodness is implicit.

[Fionordequester]

Dude, fire bad, tree pretty! Try and dumb it down a little, it's seems like you are showing off. Plus none of that explains why DBZ couldn't be kept more in tact.

Awe c,mon ! I mean, there's nothing wrong with it so long as we can actually understand what he's saying right? Some people have different styles of speaking.

As for what you said...honestly I agree, and only need to point to the popularity of shows like Yu Yu Hakusho, which I would argue had WAY more Japanese tropes and the like (the Dark Tournament is practically a carnival of them), but that doesn't mean FUNI couldn't have known that at the time. You can argue that Dragon Ball only failed in the West because of other factors, but I imagine when you're the head of a company like Gen Fukunaga, you really only have so much time to go over every little reason of why something is the way it is.

You can point out miscellaneous details all you want, but really, when you're dealing with types like a lot of your typical executives, it's the bottom line that matters rather than what reasons people have for how that bottom line happened, and while I try not to be like that, I'm it's necessarily a negative quality when you're any sort of leader or executive, or otherwise just extremely busy. As they say...

"Actions speak louder than words".

[ABED]

But did Dragon Ball fail in America? Are we talking about the first 13 episodes or the run it had on Toonami?

[Fionordequester]

But did Dragon Ball fail in America? Are we talking about the first 13 episodes or the run it had on Toonami?

The first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball. Which most likely failed because of a bad timeslot, I know, but Gen and Barry may not have either the time nor the info needed to know that for sure.

[ABED]

But did Dragon Ball fail in America? Are we talking about the first 13 episodes or the run it had on Toonami?

The first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball. Which most likely failed because of a bad timeslot, I know.

I don't mind that they went with DBZ since it is the most popular, and even if some dialog was changed, why was Goku's father "a brilliant scientist?"

[Fionordequester]

I don't mind that they went with DBZ since it is the most popular, and even if some dialog was changed, why was Goku's father "a brilliant scientist?"

...Honestly I'd like to know that myself, but personally, I chalk it down to both horrible translations of the original dialogue (as was revealed in interviews) and also FUNI unknowingly hiring horrible localizers, who thought Vegeta's explanation was too complicated or something like that. In cases like that, I think a lot of responsibility falls to the localizers themselves.

[90sDBZ]

Well I still think Faulconer's music was an improvement over Kikuchi's in Z. I will say this however. Faulconer's music would have felt inappropriate if it had been used in DB unless it was vastly different to reflect the different style the show had back then. Kikuchi was spot on in DB and still had his moments in Z but overall got boring and sometimes just tiring to listen to.

I do think Faulconer's score could have benefited from having more silent moments though. In comedy scenes it sometimes got annoying and made the scene fall flat and occasionally was even cringeworthy I must admit like in the scene were Goku and Gohan can't control they're powers and destroy everything in the house by accident. Although Kikuchi also played annoying comedy music for the Veku scene in movie 12. For the serious scenes and action scenes Faulconer just felt perfect though and I just don't see how anyone could find it bland or boring. In Z it almost felt like Kikuchi had been working on the series for so long that he had got tired of it and was just playing the same similar sounding music for ages. The music just failed to evolve with the show. It could have evolved and still maintained the same fundamental tone but instead just stayed the same and got worse over time. One thing that I think is undeniable is that Faulconer and his team definitely had enthusiasm and passion for what they were working on even if it was a different style to the original.

I know that Z is still the same as DB at heart but if you look at the dub of Z as a standalone adaption product without thinking of it as a sequel to the Japanese DB then it works just fine on its own. I'm sure that if Faulconer had scored DB and used a less action oriented score he could have made it suit DB and still made it feel consistent in tone to the Z dub. Personally I'm happy to listen to Kikuchi in DB as I find the score to be both enjoyable and exciting and often emotional. In Z it just got tiresome for me. Also people need to bare in mind that Z wasn't introduced to America as a sequel to DB but as its own show so it had no obligation to continue using Kikuchi music after it got boring. In Japan it was a sequel to DB so had to keep the same tone and style despite Kikuchi going downhill. Z being introduced to America as a standalone show freed it of the shackles of Kikuchi's tired Z score imo.

[ABED]

I don't think of DBZ as a sequel to Dragon Ball. It IS still Dragon Ball. It was simply a distinction made for the anime.

[Thanos]

I just have to say... this notion that Dragon Ball Z found success to Western audiences due to FUNimation's alterations is a bunch of hooey. As I've said before, the series found success despite these changes. The argument here boils down to the fact that, even though the series' localization is handled by different studios internationally and is still wildly successful, the one exception to that rule is the US, and that to find success here, an inexperienced group of Texans were the only way that the show could've been successful! Absolute bollocks.

[penguintruth]

Kikuchi going downhill. Z being introduced to America as a standalone show freed it of the shackles of Kikuchi's tired Z score imo.

You know how opinions can't be wrong? You just broke that barrier.

Nothing Faulconer has composed has ever touched this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q22yqUmuQdM

Kikuchi music is operatic, palpable. It weaves into the operatic, wuxia nature of the story. Faulconer's score is "HEY KIDS WASN'T THAT TOTALLY RADICAL? HERE'S VEGETA, HE'S A BAD BOY, OH YEAH!" I know DBZ isn't rife with subtlety, but Faulconer's music is just a wrecking ball.

[Fionordequester]

You know, I d

Kikuchi going downhill. Z being introduced to America as a standalone show freed it of the shackles of Kikuchi's tired Z score imo.

You know how opinions can't be wrong? You just broke that barrier.

Nothing Faulconer has composed has ever touched this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q22yqUmuQdM

Kikuchi music is operatic, palpable. It weaves into the operatic, wuxia nature of the story. Faulconer's score is "HEY KIDS WASN'T THAT TOTALLY RADICAL? HERE'S VEGETA, HE'S A BAD BOY, OH YEAH!" I know DBZ isn't rife with subtlety, but Faulconer's music is just a wrecking ball.

You know, I may not be as well versed about how the little changes and nuances the Japanese version went through as some probably are, but you do realize that that's not it's own theme, but just four themes stitched together, right? I've definitely watched enough Japanese DBZ to pick out all but one of THOSE themes at the very least (after all, they reuse most of those songs pretty often). So I'm not really sure it's a fair comparison when you put it in terms of "nothing Faulconer has composed can possibly touch THIS". Well of course it isn't when what you posted was four different songs stitched together.

Also, you keep describing DBZ as "wuxia", which according to Dictionary.com means...

a genre of Chinese fiction and film, concerning the adventures of sword-wielding chivalrous heroes

...but I honestly don't really see it even when watching Kai. Now, admittedly, the only wuxia I've actually SEEN is "Croching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", which I've heard wasn't even considered that great in China, so perhaps I'm in the wrong here, but really...this sounds much more like Dragon Ball than anything DBZ, and even Dragon Ball was more a parody of the genre than anything else (well, for most of it anyways).

So if there's wuxia in Dragon Ball Z...well, it's not exactly an obvious one. Heck, my Dad, who's always asking me "when's the next Dragon Ball Z Kai coming out?" describes it to all of his friends who ask him about it as "a western, but with sci-fi elements". And again, while I don't like making too many assumptions, I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to be seeing too many wuxia's involving cyborgs, poop jokes, over-the-top racial stereotypes (Japanese Mr. Popo and possibly Killa and that one fat arabic guy in the Buu Saga), and weird men in black speedos piledriving each other into oblivion.

And again on the soundtrack, you call Kikuchi's stuff "palpable", which, from what I'm gathered from Dictionary.com means "easily heard, seen, percieved, something one can feel". So basically, it's more "real" than the FUNImation score, and less "fake".

To begin with, that's something that's subjective and at least partially based on how your ears percieve sound. And I know that that sounds like a really lame argument (what's the point of discussing it when we can just say "well it sound good to me), but to a large extent, it's the truth. Please understand Penguin . I don't mind you having a strong opinion, but if I may ask, could you please at least not use such strong terms to describe it? At least say "cheaply done" instead of "done by some hack with a synthesizer in his basement" if you don't mind.

[ABED]

Unless someone can point to an interview where Toriyama said otherwise, I've never taken DB to be a parody. It's not making fun of it. There's a lot of humor but it's not looking down on that genre. DB takes a lot of its story from Journey to the West.

And once again, DBZ isn't a radically different show than DB. There isn't a whole lot of difference between the Saiyan arc and the Piccolo arc besides Saiyans being aliens instead of a demon, which we later find out is in fact an alien. It grew and evolved over time. Having two completely different music styles is awful. DBZ isn't a scifi show. There are elements of that, but there's plenty of mysticism, so it's far more of fantasy. Look at the heavenly hierarchy, it's Eastern in origin.

[penguintruth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia

DB/Z shares a lot of wuxia elements: martial artists using exaggerated skills, reverence for masters, chi techniques (including the ability to project beams/elemental forces from the body), flight, and healing powers. There are heroic sacrifices, couples that meet/hook up through fighting, rival schools of martial arts, horrifically difficult and dangerous training, and forbidden techniques. DBZ is just an outgrowth of DB, wuxia combined with some sci-fi elements, but still wuxia.

My point is, Kikuchi's pieces have a more natural, visceral feel, a sense of "bigness" that doesn't come with the superficial attitude of a lot of modern sound (especially the droning of a lot of Faulconer's pieces). And they fit the operatic nature of the earth chewing combat, where the sky bleeds lightning and mountains crumble when the characters power up.