How strong is Grey Buu?

[Mjb1985]

Because Vegeta was only almost 30,000. And Vegeta is at worst only slightly inferior.

[RandomGuy96]

Because Vegeta was only almost 30,000. And Vegeta is at worst only slightly inferior.

That IS only slightly inferior.

He took Zarbon by surprise, threw sand in his eyes, and then hit him off-guard (off-guard hits = PAIN) and then spammed ki blasts. After that he stated Zarbon's power fell a ton.

[Hugo Boss]

Random, the problem is that Good Buu has high endurance and durability against any opponent. To tell you the truth, Kid Buu toyed with even Goku SSJ3 (if it wasn't for the living body, the battle would be different). Kid Buu's personality is like Joker's IMO. Even Mr. Satan was involved in Kid Buu's childplay.

On topic, Grey Buu can't be stronger than Goku SSJ3, Kid Buu or Gotenks SSJ (Pre-RoSaT), he was only stronger than Good Buu and demonstrated a straight fight against him. As the narrator said, Fat Buu's power was splitted in two parts (which doesn't necessarily imply math's divide, but suggests that new parts are weaker than the all-thing) and the Grey Buu had the upper hand. Like former Kami, who left something to Piccolo Daimaō. Until then, no signicant power was stated by Piccolo (who was observing the fight with attention) or the characters that were in Kaioshin's Realm (that felt Super Buu's ki by accident). Curiously, the last rage burst of Fat Buu wasn't stated as a power-up unlike the other cases, when the characters said something related. The power that was bulbing up formed another being and then Majin Buu transformed to a fighter far superior to even Gotenks.

Personally, Super Buu's case is different from a normal absorption when we assume he just add powers. Every transformation is supposed to have a different boost and Super Buu cared more about Good Buu than anything. We don't know what would happen if Good Buu's casule was released before Gohan's and the others.

[MDSTSSJ]

Random, the problem is that Good Buu has high endurance and durability against any opponent. To tell you the truth, Kid Buu toyed with even Goku SSJ3 (if it wasn't for the living body, the battle would be different). Kid Buu's personality is like Joker's IMO. Even Mr. Satan was involved in Kid Buu's childplay.

On topic, Grey Buu can't be stronger than Goku SSJ3, Kid Buu or Gotenks SSJ (Pre-RoSaT), he was only stronger than Good Buu and demonstrated a straight fight against him. As the narrator said, Fat Buu's power was splitted in two parts (which doesn't necessarily imply math's divide, but suggests that new parts are weaker than the all-thing) and the Grey Buu had the upper hand. Like former Kami, who left something to Piccolo Daimaō. Until then, no signicant power was stated by Piccolo (who was observing the fight with attention) or the characters that were in Kaioshin's Realm (that felt Super Buu's ki by accident). Curiously, the last rage burst of Fat Buu wasn't stated as a power-up unlike the other cases, when the characters said something related. The power that was bulbing up formed another being and then Majin Buu transformed to a fighter far superior to even Gotenks.

Personally, Super Buu's case is different from a normal absorption when we assume he just add powers. Every transformation is supposed to have a different boost and Super Buu cared more about Good Buu than anything. We don't know what would happen if Good Buu's casule was released before Gohan's and the others.

I agree with you on the most part but, in the fight between Pure Boo and SSJ3 Kakarotto, Pure Boo was fighting seriously with his Joker classic personality. SSJ3 Goku ( alive ) and Pure Boo are pretty much equal. Both have bruises and scratches and that is not for toying or playing at that level of power. The main problem with that fight is the high endurance, durability like you said but the most important thing is the regeneration on Pure Boo, and if we add the rapid drainage of SSJ3 power, Kakarotto loses the advantage and lose the fight. Yes, dead SSJ3 Kakarotto beat the hell up against Pure Boo.

[Mjb1985]

So almost 30 to 33 is a small disadvantage but 23 to 24 is a large one?

[RandomGuy96]

So almost 30 to 33 is a small disadvantage but 23 to 24 is a large one?

Gaps aren't consistent at all and are not an exact formula. Just remember that.

Zarbon was apparently terrible hand to hand and couldn't sense ki, while Vegeta was skilled and could. Remember when Gohan couldn't follow the Yamcha-Saibaman fight with his eyes and had to resort to ki sensing?

Yes, to me 30 to 33 is a small disadvantage. The weaker fighter is still like 90% of the stronger one.

Random, the problem is that Good Buu has high endurance and durability against any opponent. To tell you the truth, Kid Buu toyed with even Goku SSJ3 (if it wasn't for the living body, the battle would be different). Kid Buu's personality is like Joker's IMO. Even Mr. Satan was involved in Kid Buu's childplay.

Durability has nothing to do with his ability to HIT and damage Kid Buu. Show me one other time where someone did anywhere near this well when they were less than half of their opponent.

. As the narrator said, Fat Buu's power was splitted in two parts (which doesn't necessarily imply math's divide, but suggests that new parts are weaker than the all-thing) and the Grey Buu had the upper hand. Like former Kami, who left something to Piccolo Daimaō

Why do people keep forgetting that he powered up before he split? Also, who said that the power that was split was USABLE power rather than hidden evil power?

Until then, no signicant power was stated by Piccolo (who was observing the fight with attention) or the characters that were in Kaioshin's Realm (that felt Super Buu's ki by accident).

As Kamiccolo pointed out, that whole Kaioshin realm sensing thing is inconsistent.

Curiously, the last rage burst of Fat Buu wasn't stated as a power-up unlike the other cases, when the characters said something related. The power that was bulbing up formed another being and then Majin Buu transformed to a fighter far superior to even Gotenks.

IIRC his power up was never noted in the case of his power up against Majin Vegeta. And it had all of the signs of a power up. Buu gets stronger as he gets angrier all the time, why not here? Why would this be on the exception?

Personally, Super Buu's case is different from a normal absorption when we assume he just add powers. Every transformation is supposed to have a different boost and Super Buu cared more about Good Buu than anything. We don't know what would happen if Good Buu's casule was released before Gohan's and the others.

I don't know what this has to with Good Buu's SS3-tier feats, or Grey Buu's feats that have him above Kid Buu.

[Mjb1985]

I just don't see how they wouldn't be consistent within the same two fighters.

Zarbon is 23,000 which is 95.8% of Vegeta who is 24,000.

Vegeta is 24,000 and is 72.7% of Monster Zarbon.

Vegeta is almost 30,000 and is at maximum 90.9% of Monster Zarbon.

There's just no way I could ever see any of that being a reality based on their respective fights.

[Hugo Boss]

I agree with you on the most part but, in the fight between Pure Boo and SSJ3 Kakarotto, Pure Boo was fighting seriously with his Joker classic personality. SSJ3 Goku (alive) and Pure Boo are pretty much equal. Both have bruises and scratches and that is not for toying or playing at that level of power. The main problem with that fight is the high endurance, durability like you said but the most important thing is the regeneration on Pure Boo, and if we add the rapid drainage of SSJ3 power, Kakarotto loses the advantage and lose the fight. Yes, dead SSJ3 Kakarotto beat the hell up against Pure Boo.

Sorry, I use "toy" thinking in Portuguese, but I agree they were fighting evenly until Goku's stamina gets in his way and, then, the gag begins.

Durability has nothing to do with his ability to HIT and damage Kid Buu. Show me one other time where someone did anywhere near this well when they were less than half of their opponent.

Vegeta had about 1/4 and was able to land some hits, but no one can damage Buu's unless being more powerful and persistent.

Why do people keep forgetting that he powered up before he split? Also, who said that the power that was split was USABLE power rather than hidden evil power?

Because he didn't have time to use that power and wasn't able to control it. So, a power-up is a vague assumption, since no one said he was a lot more powerful. Fat Buu expelled his evil side after a rage burst. No one said that wasn't hidden power, but it's even implied Fat Buu is weakened and Grey Buu took the major portion of his power. It's implicit Grey Buu is weaker than former Fat Buu. In DBZ logic, I think it's like Mr. Buu had 80% and Grey Buu had 90%, then you multiply the 2 portions and Super Buu had 7,200%. See? It's just an example, Toriyama is not a math expert.

As Kamiccolo pointed out, that whole Kaioshin realm sensing thing is inconsistent.

I agree it's inconsistent, but Toriyama gave us a hint by showing Goku's and Piccolo's feeling. Goku pointed a significant change in Majin Buu's ki and Piccolo was sure Gotenks SSJ wouldn't stand a chance against Super Buu. If Grey Buu was that powerful they would note that too. Apparently, Mr. Buu, Grey Buu, Fat Buu and Kid Buu don't have that much of a difference when it comes to 2, 3 times.

IIRC his power up was never noted in the case of his power up against Majin Vegeta. And it had all of the signs of a power up. Buu gets stronger as he gets angrier all the time, why not here? Why would this be on the exception?

Sorry, what is IIRC? Kuririn said something related. The case is that steam, which is Grey Buu, apparently was his ki in physical form, like an aura.

Personally, Super Buu's case is different from a normal absorption when we assume he just add powers. Every transformation is supposed to have a different boost and Super Buu cared more about Good Buu than anything. We don't know what would happen if Good Buu's casule was released before Gohan's and the others.

I don't know what this has to with Good Buu's SS3-tier feats, or Grey Buu's feats that have him above Kid Buu.

What you call "feats"? Grey Buu fought straight against Good Buu. Kid Buu wasn't fighting seriously at all, only Goku SSJ3 could fight him on equal terms. Vegeta wasn't expecting that much challenge from either Good Buu or Grey Buu. I guess the commom sense is that Grey Buu would be like Kid Buu, but they understimated him.

[TheGmGoken]

Off topic: But to think. My little brother made this thread and it got more comment sections(1 - 6) than all of my topics.
Makes me sad.

On topic:

I agree they were fighting evenly until Goku's stamina gets in his way and, then, the gag begins.

I think GOku had the slight advantage.

Pure Boo: 99
Goku SSJ3: 100

IMo that's how small that gap was.

[RandomGuy96]

I just don't see how they wouldn't be consistent within the same two fighters.

Zarbon is 23,000 which is 95.8% of Vegeta who is 24,000.

Vegeta is 24,000 and is 72.7% of Monster Zarbon.

Vegeta is almost 30,000 and is at maximum 90.9% of Monster Zarbon.

There's just no way I could ever see any of that being a reality based on their respective fights.

I don't see why not.

Zarbon has no knowledge of hand to hand combat and no ki sensing or even anything that could substitute (I have a theory that Freeza had some rudimentary ki-sensing-like abilities from his psychic powers, hence why he appeared to have precog in his fight fight with Goku) so he gets beaten around in his short struggle with Vegeta.

Then he transforms and just quickly outright overpowers Vegeta. To show gap inconsistency, Vegeta later manages to put up a good fight against Recoome, who has a similar gap on him that Zarbon had here.

When he comes for the rematch, Vegeta says

Chapter: 267 (DBZ 73), P5.1-4
Context: Vegeta is tailing Kuririn, and realizes Zarbon is tailing him.
Vegeta: “Eh?! There's a huge battle power…It's following me… I’d say Zarbon has found me! Feh!! What a nuisance…! But this is a good opportunity. I’ll take care of him for sure this time! He’s completely filled with confidence from our last battle…! He should come at me off-guard…”

He's not relying on just swatting Zarbon, and is making a big deal of the fact that Zarbon will be off guard and cocky (kind of like how Vegeta was in the last fight). When he fights Zarbon, he throws sand into his eyes and hits him three times off guard before spamming ki blasts (I can't say this enough, off-guard hits = pain). Due to this quick and powerful series of blows on an incredibly vulnerable Zarbon, his power drops a ton. Vegeta states as much. Then Vegeta quickly kills him.

Zarbon's power was nowhere near 33,000 when Vegeta punched a whole in him, and his power mostly dropped to that point because Vegeta got tactical.

[Mjb1985]

Sorry Random I'm going to have to disagree. I'm going to decline to progress with this our opinions are too different.

@ GmGoken

I like to look at 408-416 gap provided during the Raditz Saga as being the same as they were at the 23rd Budokai. So I think for someone to be fighting evenly you generally have to be 98-99% of them. Even then sometimes you can notice a slight difference.

[Axiom]

He's weaker than Pure Buu, Fat Buu and Goku. That's all that really matters.

[Kamiccolo9]

He's weaker than Pure Buu, Fat Buu and Goku. That's all that really matters.

You asked for someone to explain the Pure Evil Buu thing, and I gave you a whole topic dedicated to it. I seriously doubt that you read 5 pages of this topic in under two minutes, which leads me to believe that you don't want it explained to you, and are not even considering anyone else's arguments. So why bother discussing in the first place?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think Gray Buu is equal to Pure Buu in strength. He is essentially the manifestation of evil within Majin Buu that was suppressed by the Kaioshin influence within Majin Buu. Gray Buu is, in a sense, Pure Buu.

[Axiom]

He's weaker than Pure Buu, Fat Buu and Goku. That's all that really matters.

You asked for someone to explain the Pure Evil Buu thing, and I gave you a whole topic dedicated to it. I seriously doubt that you read 5 pages of this topic in under two minutes, which leads me to believe that you don't want it explained to you, and are not even considering anyone else's arguments. So why bother discussing in the first place?

I've read it before. Just anyone who believes that Grey Buu is on the same level as Kid Buu didn't read the manga or watch the show. Fan theories aside, it's clearly stated that Grey Buu is part of the sum (whole) of Fat buu, and said to have the majority of his power. Both Goku AND Vegeta are aware of how powerful Fatbuu is, and Goku admits that he could have beaten him, though he's not able to manage such a feat against KidBuu. It's really not a debate about South Kaio or whatever, it's clearly spelled out in the story - Kid Buu is on a whole new level compared to Grey Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I've read the manga and watched the show. Nothing states that Gray Buu cannot be Pure Buu's equal or even superior.

[RandomGuy96]

He did much better against Good Buu. He's superior in the only direct way we have to compare them.

[Axiom]

I've read the manga and watched the show. Nothing states that Gray Buu cannot be Pure Buu's equal or even superior.

Whatever man, I'm done. You believe what you want.

[Kamiccolo9]

He's weaker than Pure Buu, Fat Buu and Goku. That's all that really matters.

You asked for someone to explain the Pure Evil Buu thing, and I gave you a whole topic dedicated to it. I seriously doubt that you read 5 pages of this topic in under two minutes, which leads me to believe that you don't want it explained to you, and are not even considering anyone else's arguments. So why bother discussing in the first place?

I've read it before. Just anyone who believes that Grey Buu is on the same level as Kid Buu didn't read the manga or watch the show. Fan theories aside, it's clearly stated that Grey Buu is part of the sum (whole) of Fat buu, and said to have the majority of his power. Both Goku AND Vegeta are aware of how powerful Fatbuu is, and Goku admits that he could have beaten him, though he's not able to manage such a feat against KidBuu. It's really not a debate about South Kaio or whatever, it's clearly spelled out in the story - Kid Buu is on a whole new level compared to Grey Buu.

I could say the same about people who believe that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.
Fat Buu gets stronger when he gets angry, and was the angriest he'd ever been right before he split. Fat Buu is also made of the same parts as Super Buu. So it makes sense to assume that Fat Buu, at his maximum power, rivaled Super Buu, who is far stronger than Pure Buu. Assuming that Grey Buu got 60% of Fat Buu's full power, which is reasonable, he would easily be stronger than Pure Buu.
Goku and Vegeta are familiar with how powerful Fat Buu was, not how powerful he ended up becoming.

[Axiom]

He did much better against Fat Buu. He's superior in the only direct way we have to compare them.

Wait, what? Fat Buu is stated to be weaker that SSJ3 Goku - who could not beat KidBuu. '
What about Vegeta getting curb stomped by Kidbuu, though he put up a better fight against Grey Buu?
What about Kid Buu almost killing Fat Buu - yes, killing.
What about Vegeta KNOWING about Grey Buu's existence, pointing out that he would be weaker than Super Buu.
What about fusion being recommend as a means to beating Kid Buu?

You literally have to ignore everything else in the story and focus on one gag scene to make your theory work. It doesn't.