Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[ABED]

Why does the "five minute" thing bother people so much? Is it because it wasn't five minutes or that they didn't think what happened in the supposed five minutes was interesting?

"Five minutes" is just shorthand. It's not about the line itself, it's about how that segment (and Goku vs Freeza...the Freeza fight...hell, the entire Namek arc) is the most brutally shit example of DBZ's godawful pacing.

It's a wonder why you're a fan of the show at all.

[Fionordequester]

An orchestral score is the most appropriate for a show like DB and DBZ since it doesn't take place in our world, and it's steeped in mysticism.

...Isn't that a little general? Stuff like Final Fantasy VII certainly wasn't very heavily orchestrated, and I don't see a lot of people saying that that music was unfitting for that world, which wasn't ours and was steeped in mysticism.

[ABED]

An orchestral score is the most appropriate for a show like DB and DBZ since it doesn't take place in our world, and it's steeped in mysticism.

...Isn't that a little general? Stuff like Final Fantasy VII certainly wasn't very heavily orchestrated, and I don't see a lot of people saying that that music was unfitting for that world, which wasn't ours and was steeped in mysticism.

It was orchestrated, or at least would've been had the PS1 had that kind of space on it.

[Fionordequester]

An orchestral score is the most appropriate for a show like DB and DBZ since it doesn't take place in our world, and it's steeped in mysticism.

...Isn't that a little general? Stuff like Final Fantasy VII certainly wasn't very heavily orchestrated, and I don't see a lot of people saying that that music was unfitting for that world, which wasn't ours and was steeped in mysticism.

It was orchestrated.

Partially. Some songs were heavily orchestrated (like Sephiroth's theme). But others were not (like the boss theme, the Who Are You theme, Jenova's Theme, Bizarro Sephiroth theme, the Cosmo Canyon theme, etc.), and guitars and other steampunk-esque instruments were also very heavily used.

[ABED]

Partially. Some songs were heavily orchestrated (like Sephiroth's theme). But others were not (like the boss theme, the Who Are You theme, Jenova's Theme, Bizarro Sephiroth theme, the Cosmo Canyon theme, etc.), and guitars and other steampunk-esque instruments were also very heavily used.

FF7 was mostly orchestra and piano.

[Fionordequester]

Partially. Some songs were heavily orchestrated (like Sephiroth's theme). But others were not (like the boss theme, the Who Are You theme, Jenova's Theme, Bizarro Sephiroth theme, the Cosmo Canyon theme, etc.), and guitars and other steampunk-esque instruments were also very heavily used.

FF7 was mostly orchestra and piano.

...Ok, well first of all, let me ask you this. Does say, marching music or heavy bombastic drums count as orchestra?

[ABED]

Partially. Some songs were heavily orchestrated (like Sephiroth's theme). But others were not (like the boss theme, the Who Are You theme, Jenova's Theme, Bizarro Sephiroth theme, the Cosmo Canyon theme, etc.), and guitars and other steampunk-esque instruments were also very heavily used.

FF7 was mostly orchestra and piano.

...Ok, well first of all, let me ask you this. Does say, marching music or heavy bombastic drums count as orchestra?

I'm not a music scholar, but yes to the marching music, just doesn't make use of the whole orchestra. Plus, I wrote "mostly". There are a few cues here and there that aren't heavy on the winds or brass instruments.

[theoriginalbilis]

I will say this... nowadays I just refer non-fans to Dragon Ball Kai or the manga for their first exposure.

I love the original show to death, but Kai and the manga save the viewer from the questionable dubbing and languid pacing of the original version.

[Fionordequester]

I'm not a music scholar, but yes to the marching music, just doesn't make use of the whole orchestra. Plus, I wrote "mostly". There are a few cues here and there that aren't heavy on the winds or brass instruments.

Huh...well then, you know what, this argument is pointless. You know why? Because the Bruce Faulconer score IS orchestrated, or at least it would've been if they had had the budget to make it that way. Or at least, orchestra makes up a ton of it's stuff. I mean sure, they don't usually use the full choir in their songs, but there's very often at least one human cry in their songs.

In fact, I'll prove it if you want me to. Just list however many songs you wish to have, and I shall bring them!

[ABED]

I'm not a music scholar, but yes to the marching music, just doesn't make use of the whole orchestra. Plus, I wrote "mostly". There are a few cues here and there that aren't heavy on the winds or brass instruments.

Huh...well then, you know what, this argument is pointless. You know why? Because the Bruce Faulconer score IS orchestrated, or at least it would've been if they had had the budget to make it that way. Or at least, orchestra makes up a ton of it's stuff. I mean sure, they don't usually use the full choir in their songs, but there's very often at least one human cry in their songs.

In fact, I'll prove it if you want me to. Just list however many songs you wish to have, and I shall bring them!

I've seen the entire dub at least twice over and his music even if it was orchestrated misses the mark. Having 2 entirely different scores for DB and DBZ even though it's the same series is ridiculous. It doesn't acknowledge the wuxia roots of the series and often changes the intent of scenes or is just flat out unmemorable. I've seen the dub scene of Gohan going super saiyan 2 a number of times and can't for the life of me remember what his score sounded like.

If they didn't have the budget to make a orchestrated score if they wanted an orchestra, they shouldn't have done created the score.

[DBZ Mick]

I think most complaints about the pacing are exaggerated. The Five Minutes is a legitimate complaint however it's also got some of my favourite parts of the Freeza fight (Episode 103 especially).

I think the the pacing for the Namek arc isn't that bad- apart from Fake Namek at the beginning... the Saiyan arc is much slower paced and dragged out IMO. The Freeza arc is the slowest paced arc of DBZ though...after that it isn't too bad except in certain spots like Cell charging his Kamehameha for one whole episode and taking a whole episode to transform. The Boo saga while drawn out in some spots is also fairly very well paced for the most part.

I'd go so far to say the manga is too fast paced in some spots.

[Fionordequester]

I've seen the entire dub at least twice over and his music even if it was orchestrated misses the mark. Having 2 entirely different scores for DB and DBZ even though it's the same series is ridiculous. It doesn't acknowledge the wuxia roots of the series and often changes the intent of scenes or is just flat out unmemorable.

But you can't deny the fact that orchestra is a heavy part of the Faulconer score, can you?

I've seen the dub scene of Gohan going super saiyan 2 a number of times and can't for the life of me remember what his score sounded like.

That on the other hand...was a mistake. Even I will admit that they either got especially lazy with that scene, or were severely overworked.

If they didn't have the budget to make a orchestrated score if they wanted an orchestra, they shouldn't have done created the score.

Sure, I won't disagree with you there. But that doesn't make the score bad in-and-of-itself.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think most complaints about the pacing are exaggerated. The Five Minutes is a legitimate complaint however it's also got some of my favourite parts of the Freeza fight (Episode 103 especially).

I think the the pacing for the Namek arc isn't that bad- apart from Fake Namek at the beginning... the Saiyan arc is much slower paced and dragged out IMO. The Freeza arc is the slowest paced arc of DBZ though...after that it isn't too bad except in certain spots like Cell charging his Kamehameha for one whole episode and taking a whole episode to transform. The Boo saga while drawn out in some spots is also fairly very well paced for the most part.

I'd go so far to say the manga is too fast paced in some spots.

IMO, it's the way the filler is arranged that causes this. In the Saiyan Arc, most of the filler is in one place (the time spent training for the Saiyans), while in the Namek Arc, it's all spread out and thrown into different parts of the arc. Personally, I prefer the former. Once the Saiyans arrive, the pacing improves a lot, but in the Namek Arc, you have all these fight scenes, chase scenes, and expositions constantly interrupted by what I consider to be the worst filler in the series.

[Rocketman]

It's a wonder why you're a fan of the show at all.

I'm not. The show is terrible.

[DBZ Mick]

I think most complaints about the pacing are exaggerated. The Five Minutes is a legitimate complaint however it's also got some of my favourite parts of the Freeza fight (Episode 103 especially).

I think the the pacing for the Namek arc isn't that bad- apart from Fake Namek at the beginning... the Saiyan arc is much slower paced and dragged out IMO. The Freeza arc is the slowest paced arc of DBZ though...after that it isn't too bad except in certain spots like Cell charging his Kamehameha for one whole episode and taking a whole episode to transform. The Boo saga while drawn out in some spots is also fairly very well paced for the most part.

I'd go so far to say the manga is too fast paced in some spots.

IMO, it's the way the filler is arranged that causes this. In the Saiyan Arc, most of the filler is in one place (the time spent training for the Saiyans), while in the Namek Arc, it's all spread out and thrown into different parts of the arc. Personally, I prefer the former. Once the Saiyans arrive, the pacing improves a lot, but in the Namek Arc, you have all these fight scenes, chase scenes, and expositions constantly interrupted by what I consider to be the worst filler in the series.

Yeah, some good points there. However I do think the fight Nappa is somewhat interrupted by cuts to the TV crew, Yajirobe and then the Kame House.

Anyways, dragging this off-topic...

[Ringworm128]

The pacing of DBZ never really bothered me. It might be because I've always usually watched it 2-4 episodes at a time but I never thought "HURRY UP!" If anything I think the filler during the Freeza fight gives the battle a more grand feeling, as if it's the fight to end all fights and just makes a scene like this seem more epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4tLVvkNrmY

[ABED]

I've seen the entire dub at least twice over and his music even if it was orchestrated misses the mark. Having 2 entirely different scores for DB and DBZ even though it's the same series is ridiculous. It doesn't acknowledge the wuxia roots of the series and often changes the intent of scenes or is just flat out unmemorable.

But you can't deny the fact that orchestra is a heavy part of the Faulconer score, can you?

I've seen the dub scene of Gohan going super saiyan 2 a number of times and can't for the life of me remember what his score sounded like.

That on the other hand...was a mistake. Even I will admit that they either got especially lazy with that scene, or were severely overworked.

If they didn't have the budget to make a orchestrated score if they wanted an orchestra, they shouldn't have created the score.

Sure, I won't disagree with you there. But that doesn't make the score bad in-and-of-itself.

What am I denying? There's no orchestra. Faulconer's score is synth and guitar. I don't mind Faulconer's music in and of itself, but it doesn't go with Dragon Ball.

[Fionordequester]

What am I denying? There's no orchestra. Faulconer's score is synth and guitar. I don't mind Faulconer's music in and of itself, but it doesn't go with Dragon Ball.

Yes there is, and like I said, I can provide you a full list of examples if you wish. You said yourself that just because Final Fantasy VII didn't use the full list of orchestral music in all of it's songs doesn't mean that most of them wouldn't have been largely had the technology been bigger. And since a lot of the instruments and sounds Team Faulconer used in it's soundtrack are synthesized versions of orchestral instruments, that means that orchestra would've also been a big part of Team Faulconer's soundtrack, if they had had the budget.

Basically, what I'm saying is that orchestra-like sounds and the like are used often enough in the Team Faulconer soundtrack that it should be considered part orchestral.

[90sDBZ]

I'm not a music scholar, but yes to the marching music, just doesn't make use of the whole orchestra. Plus, I wrote "mostly". There are a few cues here and there that aren't heavy on the winds or brass instruments.

Huh...well then, you know what, this argument is pointless. You know why? Because the Bruce Faulconer score IS orchestrated, or at least it would've been if they had had the budget to make it that way. Or at least, orchestra makes up a ton of it's stuff. I mean sure, they don't usually use the full choir in their songs, but there's very often at least one human cry in their songs.

In fact, I'll prove it if you want me to. Just list however many songs you wish to have, and I shall bring them!

I've seen the entire dub at least twice over and his music even if it was orchestrated misses the mark. Having 2 entirely different scores for DB and DBZ even though it's the same series is ridiculous. It doesn't acknowledge the wuxia roots of the series and often changes the intent of scenes or is just flat out unmemorable. I've seen the dub scene of Gohan going super saiyan 2 a number of times and can't for the life of me remember what his score sounded like.

If they didn't have the budget to make a orchestrated score if they wanted an orchestra, they shouldn't have done created the score.

Just because it's inconsistent with the DB score it doesn't mean the Faulconer score doesn't work in Z. It always fitted with what was going on onscreen and worked very well with the dub. It probably wouldn't work with the Japanese version but fits the dub to a tee. I'm sure if Faulconer had got the chance he'd have made a similar score for DB to make it more consistent with the Z dub and it would have worked just as well as a different version of the show like the Z dub does.

As for being memorable I can name countless scenes that were made more memorable by Faulconer such as Goku turning Super Saiyan, Gohan's entire beam struggle with Cell, Frieza begging for mercy, Garlic Jr opening the Dead Zone, Super Buu jumping down that guy's throat, Evil Buu emerging from Good Buu, Vegeta's sacrifice, Goku going SS3, Vegeta going SS1, the spirit bomb episodes, Gohan going Mystic and many others. By the way the theme that played when Gohan went SS2 was one of the Time Chamber training themes. I actually remember very few of Kikuchi's tracks from Z as most of it sounds the same, bland and forgettable.

[penguintruth]

The Faulconer piece used for Goku's SSJ transformation, while not entirely bad on its own, completely misses the point of the scene, and is very superficial. You're supposed to be shitting yourself in fear, not slamming your head like you're at a Gwar concert. Kikuchi's piece accentuates the horror show occurring, Goku's terrible transformation from rage.

And Vegeta's sacrifice was done to the best of Kikuchi's work, his Movie 9 soundtrack, with its eerie, threatening sound.

Gohan becoming "mystic" has that upbeat, triumphant sound that also accompanies fusion. It works beautifully.

Slamming down the keys on a Casio while playing some pretty basic guitar riffs is not more memorable than a big, audacious orchestral sound.