How strong was Dabura?

[Zephyr]

And why was he as dangerous as Cell? I'm guessing it's because he was close to his level of power, plus had the ability to turn people to stone. So if Dabura is weaker, I don't think it's by a whole heck of a lot.

Consider the following:
Cell has X BP. This gives him a danger level of 10.
Dabura has Y BP. This only gives him a danger level of 7. But he also has the extremely tricky ability to turn people to stone, just by spitting on them. This raises his danger level by 3 more points. Danger level of 10, just like Cell.
And if you don't buy that, see Kaboom's explanation for the comparison between the two.

I think if that were the case, the dialogue would go something like "Look, I know how hard SSJ2 is for you, but if you pop it off with a bang like you did against Cell, you can do it! I know you can!"

But SSj2 wasn't explicitly laid out like that yet. It wasn't named. It wasn't singled out yet. It was still "that state that Gohan reached when he got really pissed off and unleashed his true power". He literally said, "get mad like you did against Cell!", which resulted specifically in SSj2. I mean yes, he just went SSj2 in front of Kibito, but that wasn't in a battle setting where he snapped and kicked ass. "Get mad like you did at the tournament and stood there for people to see!" wouldn't really give Gohan the mental connectedness of what getting mad would truly allow him to do. Bringing up the Cell Games, as opposed to the 25th TB, would be more effective in telling Gohan what he needs to do: kick the villain's ass.

I think if Toriyama was really THAT careful in drawing all the forms exactly right and everything like that, he would've also been careful to specify which Cell Goku was comparing Dabura to. The fact that he didn't leads me to believe that Toriyama just didn't think it was important to draw all the sparks needed to show off SSJ2, and wanted to finish by his deadline, hence, he didn't want to get OCD about every little detail.

Just because Toriyama didn't feel it necessary to specify which Cell was being referred to (again, see Kaboom's post which makes perfect sense of the Cell confusion), doesn't mean that he absolutely cannot feel it necessary to quickly show the key differences between SSj1 and 2. Plus, Cell wasn't even relevant in that story arc anymore. His name is just mentioned in passing, he's not a major player, there's no need to go in depth as to which form is which. Cell was a bad dude, and he was a big threat. Dabura is the baddest dude who has appeared since then. He may not be as bad of a dude, but he's still more bad of a dude than anybody they saw before or after Cell. Thus, Cell is the closest guy they can compare him to, regardless of which form.

And how many fights with SSJ2 were there before Dabura? Cell and Kibito, right? That's not a whole heck of a lot, you know that, right?

Yes, those two. And Goku vs Vegeta immediately afterwards. Why, in that one fight would they be completely absent?

Now, that said, now that I think of it, Supreme Kai was also there, and ALSO saw Gohan transform into an SSJ2. So why wouldn't HE have anything to say about the whole situation? We already established that SSJ1 and SSJ2 look different, so surely he would still notice how different Gohan looks even if he WAS a putz, as Kaboom put it.

PTSD can really mess with your cognitive functioning. Kamiccolo's post in this thread explains Kaioshin's extreme stupidity quite well: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=24021

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan was too focused on getting angry as opposed to transforming I guess. Gohan's clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed in this arc.

No one was . THat was made this Arc the worst IMO.

Vegeta was like the only intelligent one in the entire arc. Even still, he let himself be controlled to settle a rivalry with Kakarot.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta was like the only intelligent one in the entire arc. Even still, he let himself be controlled to settle a rivalry with Kakarot.

"Hey, if I just wait until we beat these guys, I can go fight with Kakarrot, with no distractions!"
"Fuck it, I WANNA FIGHT 'I'm NOW!!!!!!!!!!"

I don't think he was very intelligent. Granted, intelligence hasn't been very characteristic of him since the start of the Androids arc....
And sure, he did come up with that genius plan (but other people came up with good plans in the latter half of the arc as well, so...), but on the ship, Vegeta was absolutely not off limits to the stupid gas.

[TheGmGoken]

Vegeta was like the only intelligent one in the entire arc. Even still, he let himself be controlled to settle a rivalry with Kakarot.

"Hey, if I just wait until we beat these guys, I can go fight with Kakarrot, with no distractions!"
"Fuck it, I WANNA FIGHT 'I'm NOW!!!!!!!!!!"

I don't think he was very intelligent. Granted, intelligence hasn't been very characteristic of him since the start of the Androids arc....
And sure, he did come up with that genius plan (but other people came up with good plans in the latter half of the arc as well, so...), but on the ship, Vegeta was absolutely not off limits to the stupid gas.

He was the smartest out of every character. Then again that's not saying much.

[Son_Gohan]

That's a rested state -_-.

And a battle state:

Spoiler:

Umm no? That's Goku holding back. That was him just warming up since he didn't power up yet -_-.

It is shown as a state used while at rest and in battle, I really shouldn't be having to tell you guys that. I understand you're in "debate mode" and are compelled to argue with anything resembling a differing opinion, but you still have the mental capacity to comprehend other perspectives on things, even if you don't agree with them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegeta was like the only intelligent one in the entire arc. Even still, he let himself be controlled to settle a rivalry with Kakarot.

"Hey, if I just wait until we beat these guys, I can go fight with Kakarrot, with no distractions!"
"Fuck it, I WANNA FIGHT 'I'm NOW!!!!!!!!!!"

I don't think he was very intelligent. Granted, intelligence hasn't been very characteristic of him since the start of the Androids arc....
And sure, he did come up with that genius plan (but other people came up with good plans in the latter half of the arc as well, so...), but on the ship, Vegeta was absolutely not off limits to the stupid gas.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the Majin mistake. However, what else did he do?

[TheGmGoken]

[/quote]

And a battle state:

Spoiler:

[/quote]

Umm no? That's Goku holding back. That was him just warming up since he didn't power up yet -_-.[/quote]

It is shown as a state used while at rest and in battle, I really shouldn't be having to tell you guys that. I understand you're in "debate mode" and are compelled to argue with anything resembling a differing opinion, but you still have the mental capacity to comprehend other perspectives on things, even if you don't agree with them.[/quote]

It's a resting state since they master it. It's almost NEVER used in battle accept for that one time. That's was only because they was warming up and wasn't fighting seriously. Which causes the state to be more of ta suppressed or resting state.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's a resting state since they master it. It's almost NEVER used in battle accept for that one time. That's was only because they was warming up and wasn't fighting seriously. Which causes the state to be more of ta suppressed or resting state.

They use it when fighting in Buu's body up until they power up to fight Pure Buu. Goku also uses it to fight Yakon, Gohan uses it at the Budokai prior to going SSJ2, and Goku and Vegeta both use it from the time Vegeta gets possessed to right before they fight.

[TheGmGoken]

It's a resting state since they master it. It's almost NEVER used in battle accept for that one time. That's was only because they was warming up and wasn't fighting seriously. Which causes the state to be more of ta suppressed or resting state.

They use it when fighting in Buu's body up until they power up to fight Pure Buu. Goku also uses it to fight Yakon, Gohan uses it at the Budokai prior to going SSJ2, and Goku and Vegeta both use it from the time Vegeta gets possessed to right before they fight.

Well about the Boo's body thing. That's the one time I go against guidebooks about the clones being as strong as the originals. I have the clones weaker and that's why they could use the FPSSJ form. Goku's hair was slightly darker. Plus didn't he just use a brief SSJ2. Which is why I said they rarely use it. Gohan never went SSJ prior to Budokai unless one counts training. Him going SSJ cause of Videl was not the resting SSJ. Goku and Vegeta wasn't fighting at that time...so...of course they would use it

[Kamiccolo9]

It's a resting state since they master it. It's almost NEVER used in battle accept for that one time. That's was only because they was warming up and wasn't fighting seriously. Which causes the state to be more of ta suppressed or resting state.

They use it when fighting in Buu's body up until they power up to fight Pure Buu. Goku also uses it to fight Yakon, Gohan uses it at the Budokai prior to going SSJ2, and Goku and Vegeta both use it from the time Vegeta gets possessed to right before they fight.

Well about the Boo's body thing. That's the one time I go against guidebooks about the clones being as strong as the originals. I have the clones weaker and that's why they could use the FPSSJ form. Goku's hair was slightly darker. Plus didn't he just use a brief SSJ2. Which is why I said they rarely use it. Gohan never went SSJ prior to Budokai unless one counts training. Him going SSJ cause of Videl was not the resting SSJ. Goku and Vegeta wasn't fighting at that time...so...of course they would use it

I was talking about when they were in Buu's head, fighting him, not the anime filler. Goku initially went FPSSJ to fight Yakon, before he decided to overwhelm him with his ki. They are FPSSJ when running from Pure Buu's planet destroying attack. Goku uses the form when he's threatening Kaioshin. I'd say that this form is used more often than SSJ2 is in the Buu Arc.

[Son_Gohan]

It's a resting state since they master it. It's almost NEVER used in battle accept for that one time. That's was only because they was warming up and wasn't fighting seriously. Which causes the state to be more of ta suppressed or resting state.

If you're acknowledging it is used in battle then why are you still arguing? Off the top of my head, Gohan uses it in combat to stop the bank robbers and to spar with Goten. It's hardly exclusive to a "resting state". Are you done arguing for nothing?

[TheGmGoken]

I was talking about when they were in Buu's head, fighting him, not the anime filler. Goku initially went FPSSJ to fight Yakon, before he decided to overwhelm him with his ki. They are FPSSJ when running from Pure Buu's planet destroying attack. Goku uses the form when he's threatening Kaioshin. I'd say that this form is used more often than SSJ2 is in the Buu Arc.

Oh. You should have been more explained . Still wasn't long fight. So... =/. They wasn't fighting. They was running. SSJ Goku > Supeme Kai. He would't need a higher form lol. But sadly you're right. SSJ2 is under used IMO. Goku only used once(Twice if you count that quick burst), Vegeta only used it twice(Majin and Pure Boo), Gohan just said fuck it and went SSJ the whole arc till he got mystic(Not counting that Kibito thing), and Gotenks just by passed it.

If you're acknowledging it is used in battle then why are you still arguing? Off the top of my head, Gohan uses it in combat to stop the bank robbers and to spar with Goten. It's hardly exclusive to a "resting state". Are you done arguing for nothing?

The way you worded seems like you were saying it was used a lot in battle. Gohan didn't need to power up to stop Bank Robbers and he was just sparring which is more or less warming up. I didn't say it was exclusive. I said it a resting state and a suppressed state. Isn't this a Dabura topic

[Kamiccolo9]

I was talking about when they were in Buu's head, fighting him, not the anime filler. Goku initially went FPSSJ to fight Yakon, before he decided to overwhelm him with his ki. They are FPSSJ when running from Pure Buu's planet destroying attack. Goku uses the form when he's threatening Kaioshin. I'd say that this form is used more often than SSJ2 is in the Buu Arc.

Oh. You should have been more explained . Still wasn't long fight. So... =/. They wasn't fighting. They was running. SSJ Goku > Supeme Kai. He would't need a higher form lol. But sadly you're right. SSJ2 is under used IMO. Goku only used once(Twice if you count that quick burst), Vegeta only used it twice(Majin and Pure Boo), Gohan just said fuck it and went SSJ the whole arc till he got mystic(Not counting that Kibito thing), and Gotenks just by passed it.

I thought it was a given that filler isn't usually brought up for these kinds of debates. The length of the fight is irrelevant; they still used FPSSJ to fight Buu. It's still a combat situation, regardless if they were actually fighting. He didn't power up to fight Kaioshin though, he transformed because of Vegeta's actions. And Goku still intended on using FPSSJ to fight Yakon.

[TheGmGoken]

I was talking about when they were in Buu's head, fighting him, not the anime filler. Goku initially went FPSSJ to fight Yakon, before he decided to overwhelm him with his ki. They are FPSSJ when running from Pure Buu's planet destroying attack. Goku uses the form when he's threatening Kaioshin. I'd say that this form is used more often than SSJ2 is in the Buu Arc.

Oh. You should have been more explained . Still wasn't long fight. So... =/. They wasn't fighting. They was running. SSJ Goku > Supeme Kai. He would't need a higher form lol. But sadly you're right. SSJ2 is under used IMO. Goku only used once(Twice if you count that quick burst), Vegeta only used it twice(Majin and Pure Boo), Gohan just said fuck it and went SSJ the whole arc till he got mystic(Not counting that Kibito thing), and Gotenks just by passed it.

I thought it was a given that filler isn't usually brought up for these kinds of debates. The length of the fight is irrelevant; they still used FPSSJ to fight Buu. It's still a combat situation, regardless if they were actually fighting. He didn't power up to fight Kaioshin though, he transformed because of Vegeta's actions. And Goku still intended on using FPSSJ to fight Yakon.

Isn't this a Dabubra topic =/. But maybe Goku would have Power up. He would still be in FPSSJ. But he would't be in the resting stage of FPSSJ but the fighting stage.

[Mjb1985]

If Dabura didn't have magic, I think Super Saiyan Gohan would have beat him.

[TheGmGoken]

If Dabura didn't have magic, I think Super Saiyan Gohan would have beat him.

Nah I don't think so. I think Daubra's lack of rusty skills would cause Gohan to lose because of Gohan's lack of skill in fighting. But Gohan did get some good hits in. Dabura should e ashamed.

[Son_Gohan]

The way you worded seems like you were saying it was used a lot in battle. Gohan didn't need to power up to stop Bank Robbers and he was just sparring which is more or less warming up. I didn't say it was exclusive. I said it a resting state and a suppressed state. Isn't this a Dabura topic

Well the poster I was responding to suggested it was used purely for rest, I just provided an example where it is in battle/fighting/combat; whatever you want to call it. I know what you're saying, though I simply was not expecting the point to be argued further than that.

It's common for Dabura threads to evolve to these discussions, as Gohan plays a pivotal role in his appearance. An idea I would propose to help minimize the need for derailing relevant topics and creating future debates on the issue is to create a single thread that compiles the documented information from the official guidebooks and other supplementary sources regarding Teen Gohan and all his controversy prior to his ritual with the Elder Kaioshin. At least this way, people can come to their own conclusions based on recorded evidence without having page after page of someone trying to shove their opinions and theories down the others throat.

[Fionordequester]

Consider the following:
Cell has X BP. This gives him a danger level of 10.
Dabura has Y BP. This only gives him a danger level of 7. But he also has the extremely tricky ability to turn people to stone, just by spitting on them. This raises his danger level by 3 more points. Danger level of 10, just like Cell.
And if you don't buy that, see Kaboom's explanation for the comparison between the two.

I might be willing to buy that, except, gimmick's like that tend to be really underplayed in this particular series. Goku hardly ever used Instantaneous Movement more than twice in a fight, Krillin's Destructo Disc never amounted to anything despite how useful it should've been, and Piccolo being able to change sizes and extend his limbs was almost never taken advantage of. The only gimmicks that tended to actually make a difference was anything involving regeneration, and nothing else.

So at best, Dabura would most likely not be any lower than a 9 without the spit, if not even a 9.5.

But SSj2 wasn't explicitly laid out like that yet. It wasn't named. It wasn't singled out yet. It was still "that state that Gohan reached when he got really pissed off and unleashed his true power". He literally said, "get mad like you did against Cell!", which resulted specifically in SSj2. I mean yes, he just went SSj2 in front of Kibito, but that wasn't in a battle setting where he snapped and kicked ass. "Get mad like you did at the tournament and stood there for people to see!" wouldn't really give Gohan the mental connectedness of what getting mad would truly allow him to do. Bringing up the Cell Games, as opposed to the 25th TB, would be more effective in telling Gohan what he needs to do: kick the villain's ass.

So if SSJ2 wasn't explicably laid out in the author's head yet, how would the distinct look of the two states be any more laid out then? I really don't think Akira had it as a rule that SSJ2 should always be shown with sparks at least once until Goku vs. Vegeta, at the earliest.

Just because Toriyama didn't feel it necessary to specify which Cell was being referred to (again, see Kaboom's post which makes perfect sense of the Cell confusion), doesn't mean that he absolutely cannot feel it necessary to quickly show the key differences between SSj1 and 2.

Yes, he did show the differences...AFTER the Gohan vs. Dabura fight. Again, I think it's just as likely that he simply didn't think to make a clear difference between the two, ESPECIALLY since this is the same guy who would completely forget about the existence of relatively prominent side characters like Lunch (unless of course that's only the Anime I'm thinking of, where she tended to show up fairly often at stuff like the 23rd Budokai). If he were to have an interview right now, where someone asked him about this, and he was all "Oh...shoot, yeah, that was one time where I forgot to draw the sparks...sorry about that!", I seriously would not be surprised in the slightest.

And I guess now that we're on the subject, this is the biggest reason as to why I don't accept Gohan's appearance as evidence of SSJ1. Because knowing Akira, I think it's likely he just had a brain fart on that particular moment.

Plus, Cell wasn't even relevant in that story arc anymore. His name is just mentioned in passing, he's not a major player, there's no need to go in depth as to which form is which. Cell was a bad dude, and he was a big threat. Dabura is the baddest dude who has appeared since then. He may not be as bad of a dude, but he's still more bad of a dude than anybody they saw before or after Cell. Thus, Cell is the closest guy they can compare him to, regardless of which form.

This is the in-universe discussion forum though. What we need is an in-universe explanation as to why Goku wouldn't specify which Cell unless he assumed that Gohan would know which Cell he was referring to.

Yes, those two. And Goku vs Vegeta immediately afterwards. Why, in that one fight would they be completely absent?

Forgetfulness of course.

PTSD can really mess with your cognitive functioning. Kamiccolo's post in this thread explains Kaioshin's extreme stupidity quite well: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24021

...But see, I don't think Supreme Kai DID have PTSD. If he did, he'd have to experience one of these symptoms...

A: Exposure to a traumatic event This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror, or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[83])

B: Persistent re-experiencing One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).

C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing This involves a sufficient level of:
avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories as well as the disturbing memories, dreams, flashbacks, and intense psychological or physiological distress;[18]
inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.

D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. Additional symptoms include irritability, angry outbursts, increased startle response, and concentration or sleep problems.[18]

E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.[18]

F: Significant impairment The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".[84]

The only one he even came close to exhibiting was A, and even then, that diagnosis is called into question when you consider how eager he was to fight Gotenk's-Buu, of all people, after his fusion with Kibito.

[Kamiccolo9]

...But see, I don't think Supreme Kai DID have PTSD. If he did, he'd have to experience one of these symptoms...

A: Exposure to a traumatic event This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror, or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[83])

B: Persistent re-experiencing One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).

C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing This involves a sufficient level of:
avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories as well as the disturbing memories, dreams, flashbacks, and intense psychological or physiological distress;[18]
inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.

D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. Additional symptoms include irritability, angry outbursts, increased startle response, and concentration or sleep problems.[18]

E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.[18]

F: Significant impairment The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".[84]

The only one he even came close to exhibiting was A, and even then, that diagnosis is called into question when you consider how eager he was to fight Gotenk's-Buu, of all people, after his fusion with Kibito.

He perfectly fits with A, and E and F as well. He spent a couple thousand years remembering how useless he was to help out his fellow Kaioshins, and his actions in the Buu Arc certainly make it seem like his judgment has been impaired. As for him being willing to fight Gotenks Buu, he thought he was strong enough to help out, and was immediately shot down. He thought he finally had a chance to get back at the monster that destroyed his life, and was eager to take it. Or you could say that his mental impairment was enough to cloud his judgment. Either one would fit in with a diagnosis of PTSD.

[Fionordequester]

He perfectly fits with A, and E and F as well. He spent a couple thousand years remembering how useless he was to help out his fellow Kaioshins

According to which part of the story? I certainly don't remember him saying that he was a wreck for 3000 years. I mean he still got stuff done like killing Bibidi, whereas with someone who truly had PTSD, I don't think they'd be able to function well enough to fight much of anything. After all, you certainly wouldn't want to recruit a PTSD'd Vietnam Vet to fight in Afghanistan, would you?

Plus, it was Majin Buu that killed his buddies, not Dabura or Babidi or Pui or whoever. So logically, he'd really only be afraid of Buu, and would not be stunned into helplesness by any of Babidi's other henchmen.