How strong was Dabura?

[Fionordequester]

That's still his rested state in that picture.

Huh. That's right huh? Well how many rows of hair spikes does he tend to have as a SSJ1?

[TheGmGoken]

That's still his rested state in that picture.

Huh. That's right huh? Well how many rows of hair spikes does he tend to have as a SSJ1?

You...you..you want us to count hair?

[Fionordequester]

That's still his rested state in that picture.

Huh. That's right huh? Well how many rows of hair spikes does he tend to have as a SSJ1?

You...you..you want us to count hair?

Well of course. If I'm going to admit that I was wrong all this time, I want the argument to be extra convincing! I mean, I guess I could do it myself, but frankly, I've already spent enough time just debating your points. Don't want to be OCD after all!

[TheGmGoken]

Okay so let me get this 100% right. You want us to count HAIR! . Umm.. .
This guy said he wanted us to count hair . We only seem most likely 60% of his hair due to his spikes. How the hell are we suppose to count.....

[Fionordequester]

Okay so let me get this 100% right. You want us to count HAIR! . Umm.. .
This guy said he wanted us to count hair . We only seem most likely 60% of his hair due to his spikes. How the hell are we suppose to count.....

Actually, you know what, suppose we can't rely on that list of SSJ Gohan forms since all we can see of his SSJ1 is it's resting form...then doesn't that mean it's just about impossible to prove that Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2 in ANY of his fights past the training montage with Gohan? That is, if we don't accept lightning as evidence? After all, we never saw the beginning of the fight before cutting away to comedy with Mr. Satan and co., so it's possible that Gohan turned SSJ2, had lightning at the start, but lost it due to fatique throughout all the fighting that we didn't see.

EDIT: So yes, until we can pin down exactly how many rows of spikes a battle-ready SSJ1 has (as opposed to a resting state SSJ1), I'm not seeing how you can use Gohan's hair as proof.

[TheGmGoken]

Okay so let me get this 100% right. You want us to count HAIR! . Umm.. .
This guy said he wanted us to count hair . We only seem most likely 60% of his hair due to his spikes. How the hell are we suppose to count.....

Actually, you know what, suppose we can't rely on that list of SSJ Gohan forms since all we can see of his SSJ1 is it's resting form...then doesn't that mean it's just about impossible to prove that Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2 in ANY of his fights past the training montage with Gohan? That is, if we don't accept lightning as evidence? After all, we never saw the beginning of the fight before cutting away to comedy with Mr. Satan and co., so it's possible that Gohan turned SSJ2, had lightning at the start, but lost it due to fatique throughout all the fighting that we didn't see.

EDIT: So yes, until we can pin down exactly how many rows of spikes a battle-ready SSJ1 has (as opposed to a resting state SSJ1), I'm not seeing how you can use Gohan's hair as proof.

Okay. RIGHT BEFORE the Dabura fight. Mr. AT changed Gohan's SSJ2 Design. During the Dabura fight it looked NOTHING like the design he showed for his new ssj2 design.

[Fionordequester]

Okay so let me get this 100% right. You want us to count HAIR! . Umm.. .
This guy said he wanted us to count hair . We only seem most likely 60% of his hair due to his spikes. How the hell are we suppose to count.....

Actually, you know what, suppose we can't rely on that list of SSJ Gohan forms since all we can see of his SSJ1 is it's resting form...then doesn't that mean it's just about impossible to prove that Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2 in ANY of his fights past the training montage with Gohan? That is, if we don't accept lightning as evidence? After all, we never saw the beginning of the fight before cutting away to comedy with Mr. Satan and co., so it's possible that Gohan turned SSJ2, had lightning at the start, but lost it due to fatique throughout all the fighting that we didn't see.

EDIT: So yes, until we can pin down exactly how many rows of spikes a battle-ready SSJ1 has (as opposed to a resting state SSJ1), I'm not seeing how you can use Gohan's hair as proof.

Okay. RIGHT BEFORE the Dabura fight. Mr. AT changed Gohan's SSJ2 Design. During the Dabura fight it looked NOTHING like the design he showed for his new ssj2 design.

Sure it did. I'm already working on drawing red lines to mark all the rows of spikes I saw in the Dabura vs. Gohan fight, so be sure to check it out once I'm done!

[TheGmGoken]

There already a photo for you on this website

In his SSJ form, Gohan's hair stands steep and straight (as seen in red color).
In his SSJ2 form, it stands jagged and less steep.

In his SSJ form, Gohan has more anterior bangs, but in SSJ2, his hair behind his bangs becomes more spread (like a flower opening up), and also, he seems to have less anterior bangs (green color).

In his SSJ form, Gohan hasn't got sparks.
But in his SSJ2 form, Gohan has even got sparks (even though he is relaxed!). In his supposed "SSJ2" form against Dabra and Buu (where he has eaten a Senzu bean) his hair remains the same as in his SSJ form. And now he has an even bigger reason to go all out, but still no sparks! Yet they were there moments before!

Those are the factors that contradict the SSJ2 theory art wise to me.

And regarding the story and the comments, my interpretation is pretty clear that a "no threat" that even weakened Gohan can handle, isn't someone at a SSJ2 level. It's pretty clear that they are speaking about someone manageable by a SSJ1.
Any opponent at the power of a SSJ2 and higher is a problem to defeat for them (see Goku vs. Freeza where they had problems taking each other out because of their powers being close to each other's).
An easy opponent would thus be someone close to their SSJ level, since they would be able to defeat him with SSJ2.

Both Goku and Gohan were close to Perfect Cell's power, but they never saw him as a non-problem. If Dabra was at SSJ2 level, then he would be a problem.
It's all about power differences, and the story indicates that Dabra wasn't near their SSJ2 powers at all.

[Kaboom]

It's painful how nitpicky this is getting. Does anyone here really think that Toriyama was actually counting the number of hair-tufts Gohan had, and deliberately or even subconsciously using them to differentiate between his Super Saiyan forms?

You know what I see? I see the hair tufts being a little different in every single image shown here.

[TheGmGoken]

It's painful how nitpicky this is getting. Does anyone here really think that Toriyama was actually counting the number of hair-tufts Gohan had, and deliberately or even subconsciously using them to differentiate between his Super Saiyan forms?

That's why I asked him. Does he really want us to count hair.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's painful how nitpicky this is getting. Does anyone here really think that Toriyama was actually counting the number of hair-tufts Gohan had, and deliberately or even subconsciously using them to differentiate between his Super Saiyan forms?

You know what I see? I see the hair tufts being a little different in every single image shown here.

My thread's gone insane

[Fionordequester]

It's painful how nitpicky this is getting. Does anyone here really think that Toriyama was actually counting the number of hair-tufts Gohan had, and deliberately or even subconsciously using them to differentiate between his Super Saiyan forms?

You know what I see? I see the hair tufts being a little different in every single image shown here.

That's exactly why I don't think the art is proof that Gohan was SSJ1! I don't think Mr. Toriyama was that OCD about having Gohan always look the same. And while we're on the subject, is Akira Toriyama really so subtle of a writer that he would have Gohan go SSJ2 at the tournament, and then have him at SSJ1 against Dabura without doing much of anything to spell it out for us? Without so much as a passing comment from the characters like "Huh, why's he only fighting at half power?"?

THIS IS THE SAME GUY WHO FELT THE NEED TO PUT, IN NARRATION CAPS "Vegeta is crying for the first time he's ever cried in his life because he's THAT helpless against Frieza", despite the artwork already very clearly showing that.

There already a photo for you on this website

Spoiler:

...I dunno, they look about the same to me, and if that's SSJ1 I'm seeing, then that just about proves that the concept art someone posted for Movie 10 isn't right (the front SSJ1 bangs are too small on the first picture). Plus, on the 3rd picture from the left (SSJ1), Gohan's face actually looks more jagged and sharp than the fourth picture (the SSJ2 picture). But anyways, here's what I've got...

Spoiler:

[TheGmGoken]

It's painful how nitpicky this is getting. Does anyone here really think that Toriyama was actually counting the number of hair-tufts Gohan had, and deliberately or even subconsciously using them to differentiate between his Super Saiyan forms?

You know what I see? I see the hair tufts being a little different in every single image shown here.

My thread's gone insane

Hey he the one who asked for us to COUNT HAIR! Like seriously I know being disrespect is against the rule but WTF? I'm sure the amount of hair a character has changes with each panel. THank god someone posted a hair count on Kanzenshuu. But yeah your thread as good old J.R would say. ALL HELL HAS BROKEN LOOSE!

Edit: Okay dude. Seriously. You counted hair. Really =/. Okay you win. He was SSJ2. Just for the fact you counted hair . He was ssj2. Yup you proved everyone on this topic wrong. You get a thumbs up

[Kaboom]

That's exactly why I don't think the art is proof that Gohan was SSJ1! I don't think Mr. Toriyama was that OCD about having Gohan always look the same.

There's a big difference between a subtle and massively inconsistent detail like number and arrangement of little hair tufts and a glaring one like distinctly different auras.

[Fionordequester]

There's a big difference between a subtle and massively inconsistent detail like number and arrangement of little hair tufts and a glaring one like distinctly different auras.

Perhaps. But like I said, how do you know it wasn't simply Gohan tiring out and losing some steam during the portion of the fight that we didn't see? Heck, for all we know, Gohan STARTED at SSJ2, but then reverted back to SSJ1 while we were having fun at the Tournament. If you really want to go with that, I can see you arguing "Goku, Vegeta, and Supreme Kai already told Gohan to go to SSJ2 offscreen, but eventually realized he couldn't". And that would be perfectly valid, right?

[Kaboom]

I'd personally go with the "they're not even necessarily thinking of Super Saiyan 2 because Gohan shouldn't even need it to beat Dabra" angle I outlined earlier.

[IAmAwesome]

Wow this is a mess! . We're counting hairs now . I have Dabura at Pefect Cell Level when he fought Goku. However we never know if Dabura was serious or not so that does play a factor. For the Gohan issue. I have him as a SSJ. That is because the lack of sparks. Let's remember this is Mr. Toriyama before he forgot everything. Other times SSJ2 in this Saga had sparks. Yet no time in the Gohan fight did he have sparks. It might have been a brainfart if it was for like 1 or 2 pages. But I don't think he would forget an entire fight with no sparks. GOku and Vegeta never ask why isn't Gohan going further because he shouldn't need to.

[Fionordequester]

I'd personally go with the "they're not even necessarily thinking of Super Saiyan 2 because Gohan shouldn't even need it to beat Dabra" angle I outlined earlier.

Fair enough. But I don't think there's enough evidence to say that for sure. I personally would lean towards them saying that SSJ2 Gohan was what was needed, considering that Goku said "wow, he's stronger than I first thought" after comparing him to Cell, and since Vegeta said "He's tough, but not unbeatable" (as opposed to, "This guy is weak! He should be an ANT compared to Gohan!").

Wow this is a mess! . We're counting hairs now .

I know. Next thing you know we'll be splitting them as well !

That is because the lack of sparks. Let's remember this is Akira before he forgot everything. Other times SSJ2 in this Saga had sparks. Yet no time in the Gohan fight did he have sparks. It might have been a brainfart if it was for like 1 or 2 pages. But I don't think he would forget an entire fight with no sparks. GOku and Vegeta never ask why isn't Gohan going further because he shouldn't need to.

But can't those sparks fade after a long battle? I'm guessing that's what happened to Gohan during the part of the fight that we never got to see.

[Kamiccolo9]

Wow this is a mess! . We're counting hairs now . I have Dabura at Pefect Cell Level when he fought Goku. However we never know if Dabura was serious or not so that does play a factor. For the Gohan issue. I have him as a SSJ. That is because the lack of sparks. Let's remember this is Akira before he forgot everything. Other times SSJ2 in this Saga had sparks. Yet no time in the Gohan fight did he have sparks. It might have been a brainfart if it was for like 1 or 2 pages. But I don't think he would forget an entire fight with no sparks. GOku and Vegeta never ask why isn't Gohan going further because he shouldn't need to.

I'd have to agree with this. Seeing as both before and after this fight, Toryama was consistent with the sparks, there's no reason to not include them on Gohan this time. Goku and Vegeta both go SSJ2 two or three chapters after this, and they both exhibit all of the key characteristics, and Gohan transforms again to destroy Buu's ball, and displays none of the characteristics of SSJ2, even though Goku and Vegeta both do on the page right after he attacks.
Whether it makes more sense for Gohan to be a SSJ2 in these scenes is something I don't really want to address, but you can't seriously deny that he's being drawn as a regular Super Saiyan in this fight. And even given Toryama's forgetful nature, it's a stretch to assume that he'd forget about the characteristics of SSJ2 when he had just drawn Gohan as one shortly before, and was also drawing Goku and Vegeta as SSJ2's after and during Gohan's transformations.

Incidentally, what's with the way higher than normal amount of people lately who seem to be on a first name basis with Toryama? I've seen more "Akiras" in the last couple of weeks than I have in the whole half a year I've been part of this forum.

@Fionordequester-
Regardless of how injured or tired they are, every time we see a SSJ2 with an aura, they have the sparks. Gohan had them during the Cell Games, even after losing half his strength from Cell's attack, and Goku and Vegeta both had their sparks all the way through their fight, and they were way more exhausted than Gohan was.

[IAmAwesome]

Wow this is a mess! . We're counting hairs now . I have Dabura at Pefect Cell Level when he fought Goku. However we never know if Dabura was serious or not so that does play a factor. For the Gohan issue. I have him as a SSJ. That is because the lack of sparks. Let's remember this is Akira before he forgot everything. Other times SSJ2 in this Saga had sparks. Yet no time in the Gohan fight did he have sparks. It might have been a brainfart if it was for like 1 or 2 pages. But I don't think he would forget an entire fight with no sparks. GOku and Vegeta never ask why isn't Gohan going further because he shouldn't need to.

I'd have to agree with this. Seeing as both before and after this fight, Toryama was consistent with the sparks, there's no reason to not include them on Gohan this time. Goku and Vegeta both go SSJ2 two or three chapters after this, and they both exhibit all of the key characteristics, and Gohan transforms again to destroy Buu's ball, and displays none of the characteristics of SSJ2, even though Goku and Vegeta both do on the page right after he attacks.
Whether it makes more sense for Gohan to be a SSJ2 in these scenes is something I don't really want to address, but you can't seriously deny that he's being drawn as a regular Super Saiyan in this fight. And even given Toryama's forgetful nature, it's a stretch to assume that he'd forget about the characteristics of SSJ2 when he had just drawn Gohan as one shortly before, and was also drawing Goku and Vegeta as SSJ2's after and during Gohan's transformations.

Incidentally, what's with the way higher than normal amount of people lately who seem to be on a first name basis with Toryama? I've seen more "Akiras" in the last couple of weeks than I have in the whole half a year I've been part of this forum.

@Fionordequester-
Regardless of how injured or tired they are, every time we see a SSJ2 with an aura, they have the sparks. Gohan had them during the Cell Games, even after losing half his strength from Cell's attack, and Goku and Vegeta both had their sparks all the way through their fight, and they were way more exhausted than Gohan was.

I'm sorry. I didn't know this website was a first name basis. Can I request for an admin to change it?