How strong was Dabura?

[Kaboom]

But can't those sparks fade after a long battle? I'm guessing that's what happened to Gohan during the part of the fight that we never got to see.

Gohan still had them after being wounded by Cell, Goku and Vegeta still had them after their punishing and high-damage battle, Vegeta still had them after Boo beat him half to death... They don't seem to just disappear because the user is running low on power.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm sorry. I didn't know this website was a first name basis. Can I request for an admin to change it?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you as much as others on this forum.
You can change it yourself using the edit button on your post.

[TheGmGoken]

But can't those sparks fade after a long battle? I'm guessing that's what happened to Gohan during the part of the fight that we never got to see.

It's not a fart ._. it doesn't just fade away. Even when low on power every SSJ2 had them in the series.

[Kaboom]

Incidentally, what's with the way higher than normal amount of people lately who seem to be on a first name basis with Toriyama? I've seen more "Akiras" in the last couple of weeks than I have in the whole half a year I've been part of this forum.

I'm sorry. I didn't know this website was a first name basis. Can I request for an admin to change it?

I have been changing them, but I'm only one man. Wondering how long it'd be before someone else noticed. So yes, let's try to opt for "Mr. Toriyama' or at least just "Toriyama" instead, okey dokey?

You do have the ability to edit your own posts, FYI. The big "edit" button at the top of each one.

[IAmAwesome]

I'm sorry. I didn't know this website was a first name basis. Can I request for an admin to change it?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you as much as others on this forum.
You can change it yourself using the edit button on your post.

Oh cool. I'll change it

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm sorry. I didn't know this website was a first name basis. Can I request for an admin to change it?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you as much as others on this forum.
You can change it yourself using the edit button on your post.

Oh cool. I'll change it

Thanks. That's just a serious pet peeve of mine. 2 years of Japanese culture and language classes will do that to you

[Fionordequester]

....Alright, fine, after looking at said scenes of Goku vs. Vegeta...I guess I can't really deny that Gohan was indeed drawn like a SSJ1. So now my theory is that he tried to use SSJ2 against Dabura, but for one reason or another, he wasn't able to maintain it long enough to do a significant amount of damage, and so, stopped trying to use it midway into the fight....

I still think it's weird that Akira would pick that moment to be so subtle about it, considering that one of the future issues has this...



Which to me seems about as on-the-nose as you can get, but, until I, or someone else, has anything better to come up with...congratulations.

[RandomGuy96]

Wow, this thread EXPLODED while I was gone.

Normally, yes, I actually am. But not when it comes to the same pointless crap being argued over and over for no reason because the answer is as clear as day. Again, Toriyama literally drew us a picture of the differences between Super Saiyan 1 and 2. Like, it's right there. The differences. He drew them, and explained them, right there in the manga. THAT is what you should make everything else fit with.

So you admit that you don't respect other opinions on the matter, and then repeatedly talk down to me ("it's obvious" it's right in your face") and say that your opinion is fact, while others are crap ("it's pointless to argue otherwise" "THAT is what you should make everything else fit with"), and imply that I'm stupid for having a different view on the matter ("the answer is clear as day"). Glad to see that you're following the the forum rules, and acting as a good moderator should.

And I don't appreciate your condescending attitude either Ozaru, especially when it's so massively hypocritical as you usually talk down to people who don't follow the guidebooks.

I mean seriously, it's like plot, consistency, logic, and guidebooks don't matter at all next to a subjective visual comparison. It's just "if he has no sparks, it's not SS2"... which is shaky ground in the first place, as he clearly has SS2-esque hair style as detailed in the Daiz 6 sketches, and this was before Goku did that whole form demonstration, and it's never ever noted that the sparks are required for SS2. Also, as was pointed out, we never ever saw Gohan power up, and in many panels SS2s aren't drawn with that aura. So even another point of view isn't impossible (just improbable) just going purely by the spark argument.

Anyway, since the conversation has progressed so much, I'm not sure what I can really add. Fionordequester said a lot of what I was going to say. But I don't think that the following things were brought up:

The whole Fat Buu scene. Like I said: Gohan clearly established that Initial Fat Buu was SS2-tier. He calls his ki incredible, but says that, if he gets made and accesses his true power, then "there's not like there's nothing I can do". Even if you think he's only referring to his normal SS2, this scene still makes no sense if Dabura is only MSS-tier, because Gohan still considered Fat Buu someone close to him as a SS2, and considered him two-shotting Dabura after his power up to be an incredible feat. He was shocked and sweating bullets. He would already know that Buu could do this if Dabura was that pathetically weak, and so the scene would make no sense. And yeah, the "ki is like a lie" line refers to Fat Buu's rage boosts. Even if it didn't, Gohan's PREDICTION of Buu was someone close to his SS2 self, and the Buu he saw beat Dabura very obviously exceeded that prediction.

Vegeta and Goku never imply Dabura is a non-threat. Vegeta just says that he's not unbeatable, and that if they watch out for his spit, they should be able to "manage something", which in context is always used to refer to a difficult victory (Gohan says it about Freeza, Goku says it about Pure Buu). And you'd think that Vegeta, being the boastful type, would actually call Dabura a weakling, like he does with other weaklings, and like he later does with Fat Buu (a very similar situation, where Kaioshin's nemesis doesn't live up to the the hype). Buuuuuut... he doesn't.

Gohan never tries to transform later, even when he knows that he's going to be fighting Dabura again and has all the time in the world. So the "he didn't have enough time/he was under too much pressure" argument is moot.

Kibito and Kaioshin sense SS2 Gohan at the tournament, and yet later Kaioshin says that Kibito "had no idea how incredible Gohan was". From seeing a Gohan half of the power of the one Kibito sensed. Okay, so apparently Kaioshin is a complete dumbass.

Goku was never under the impression that Gohan NEEDED rage to transform, since he just saw him do it of free will, yet he never just says "Gohan, transform".

Gohan is apparently the dumbest person in the world for not transforming when he easily could. Toriyama is also an incompetent author for not making the issue clear that he couldn't transform when he showed him transforming of free will before. He also mysteriously didn't have Goku or Vegeta point it out.

Everyone keeps saying that Toriyama just wouldn't draw a SS2 without sparks... okay then, why would he do all this other stuff? Why would he have Gohan suddenly stop being a SS2? Why would he have no one comment on this crippling inability, and instead just have them say he got weaker? Why wouldn't he have Goku just note that Gohan's having trouble transforming? Why wouldn't he show it? Why would he not make a big deal of it? Why would he keep having characters bring up the Cell Games as an example of Gohan getting angry if the more recent and familiar example would be the tournament? If he intended Gohan to only access SS2 with rage, why would he only have him go normal Super Saiyan when angry, and only have him go SS2 when he's completely calm and blushing in front of his friends? Why would he compare Dabura to Cell if he really meant some suppressed version of Cell? Why would he approve a guidebook that contradicted the "Gohan was a Super Saiyan" argument TWICE? Et cetera.

On the "damage" argument: the reason the meter didn't fill is because neither fighter damaged the other at all.

Also, and I cannot say this enough, the Daizenshuu 7 states twice that Dabura is SS2-tier.

When I get vague, subjective visual implications in the manga, I don't immediately interpret them one way and declare that there is no other way. Instead, I look at it in context and see what the guides have to say. Plot-wise, I think that it makes the most sense if he's a Super Saiyan 2, and the only official statement that we have outright says that he was a Super Saiyan 2. So I go with that: official statements > fan opinions. You go with something otherwise based on your own analysis of the art. And that's fine, just don't act like it's fact.

[TheGmGoken]

^ You're over analyzing things. DId you read the other comments people made. Pretty much everyone now agrees that he was SSJ. Yes it can create some plot issue and question n why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 but overall he's a SSJ. If you're going to continue the whole SSJ2 or SSJ debate then please know that the debate is over =/.

Okay, so apparently Kaioshin is a complete dumbass.

Did you no watch the Boo Arc xD

[Fionordequester]

^ You're over analyzing things. DId you read the other comments people made. Pretty much everyone now agrees that he was SSJ. Yes it can create some plot issue and question n why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 but overall he's a SSJ. If you're going to continue the whole SSJ2 or SSJ debate then please know that the debate is over =/.

...Actually, not so much anymore. He has a point about Supreme Kai still having a great deal confidence in Gohan. But now if I may ask Randomguy, what's the exact quote from your manga about what Gohan says (you know, "Buu being a SSJ2 tier opponent")?

[RandomGuy96]

You're over analyzing things. DId you read the other comments people made. Pretty much everyone now agrees that he was SSJ.

Okay, so some other people think he was a SS... What does that have to do with anything?

Yes it can create some plot issue and question n why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 but overall he's a SSJ.

In your opinion.

If you're going to continue the whole SSJ2 or SSJ debate then please know that the debate is over

This thread is still open, and I still think that he was a Super Saiyan 2 (I think at least one other does as well), so I'm not seeing how it's over.

...Actually, not so much anymore. He has a point about Supreme Kai still having a great deal confidence in Gohan. But now if I may ask Randomguy, what's the exact quote from your manga about what Gohan says (you know, "Buu being a SSJ2 tier opponent")?

I don't know, actually, I'm just going by the strength checker. I usually use that for these arguments. It says:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

Notice how he says "ALL of my true power", which would obviously be more than what he had at the tournament (and the Daizenshuu flat-out states that he lost his rage boosts and that's why he was stronger against Cell; with that in mind his Cell Games power should probably be what he's referring to here). Also note how he calls Buu's ki tremendous and still implies that he'll be difficult even with the rage boost + SS2 (he just says that he won't be completely helpless, even though it would probably assuage Kaioshin's concerns more if he heard "I can easily take this guy"). Definitely not the words of someone who can stomp Buu into the dirt just by freely transforming.

[Fionordequester]

So now that I have now discovered the Strength Checker thanks to Randomguy...that's it, this is in the bag. Gohan was an SSJ2 even though he did not have the lightning. So to add on to RandomGuy's argument, here's Gohan says before Buu pwnstomps Dabura...

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

And here's what he says after...

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P1.2-4, P2.5
Context: after Boo beats Dabra
Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
Trunks: “…What the…!? This time I feel an incredible ki over there too…What’s going on?...”

So Gohan goes from "Yeah, I think I can do some real damage with SSJ2!" to "HOLY MOLY, I CAN'T BEAT THAT!!" from Buu killing...an SSJ1 tier foe? I'm not buying it. Plus, Gohan takes THIS to the fricken face...



And still lives. Now I ask you, HOW in Mother Earth could a SSJ1 tier warrior POSSIBLY have survived THAT?!?

[TheGmGoken]

As DIllian said. After all the times in the Cell Arc and other times in the Majin Boo Arc SSJ2 had sparks. Even just a few chapter before Gohan had sparks. You're telling me it's just coincidence this one time GOhan doesn't have Sparks? It's fact he was SSJ. Daizenshuu made an Error. You can't ask why Mr. Akira approved of it cause he also approved that Tien fought #19.

Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

How does that mean he was SSJ2 against Dabura. It actually proves he wasn't SSJ2 against Dabura . Hence why he said "even". H

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P1.2-4, P2.5
Context: after Boo beats Dabra
Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
Trunks: “…What the…!? This time I feel an incredible ki over there too…What’s going on?...”

That means Gohan can't count on getting angry to beat Boo. His ki rising does not prove Dabura's power.

[Fionordequester]

As DIllian said. After all the times in the Cell Arc and other times in the Majin Boo Arc SSJ2 had sparks. Even just a few chapter before Gohan had sparks. You're telling me it's just coincidence this one time GOhan doesn't have Sparks? It's fact he was SSJ. Daizenshuu made an Error. You can't ask why Mr. Akira approved of it cause he also approved that Tenshinhan fought #19.

No. But I don't think the sparks are needed for SSJ2. I'm starting to think now that Akira only had them absent to show just how much power Gohan had lost due to getting rusty, and so that the reader wouldn't mistake Gohan for being as strong as Goku and Vegeta. He knew they were both SSJ2, so he needed an artistic cue to tell us that Gohan was still weaker than the other two.

How does that mean he was SSJ2 against Dabura. It actually proves he wasn't SSJ2 against Dabura . Hence why he said "even".

He doesn't say "even".

That means Gohan can't count on getting angry to beat Boo.

Precisely. Even his full power SSJ2 isn't enough to kill Fat Buu, hence why he decides he can't beat Buu.

[Fionordequester]

Ok, before anyone else posts, I want to make another point. I don't want to debate the other one yet until I do, so could you please hear me out?

[TheGmGoken]

As DIllian said. After all the times in the Cell Arc and other times in the Majin Boo Arc SSJ2 had sparks. Even just a few chapter before Gohan had sparks. You're telling me it's just coincidence this one time GOhan doesn't have Sparks? It's fact he was SSJ. Daizenshuu made an Error. You can't ask why Mr. Akira approved of it cause he also approved that Tenshinhan fought #19.

No. But I don't think the sparks are needed for SSJ2. I'm starting to think now that Akira only had them absent to show just how much power Gohan had lost due to getting rusty, and so that the reader wouldn't mistake Gohan for being as strong as Goku and Vegeta. He knew they were both SSJ2, so he needed an artistic cue to tell us that Gohan was still weaker than the other two.

How does that mean he was SSJ2 against Dabura. It actually proves he wasn't SSJ2 against Dabura . Hence why he said "even".

He doesn't say "even".

That means Gohan can't count on getting angry to beat Boo.

Precisely. Even his full power SSJ2 isn't enough to kill Fat Buu, hence why he decides he can't beat Buu.

You do realize that DBz isn't complex right? It's very very very very very blunt. Vgeeta outright stated Goku and Vegeta are stronger. Even Gohan said it. What you think the readers are retarded? I'm sure Mr.AT knew the reader wasn't retarded. Gohan didn't have sparks cause he wasn't SSJ2. Why would he not draw Gohan with sparks. HE ALREADY DREW THEM WHEN HE WENT SSJ2 a few chapters earlier. Both Vegeta and Goku was present at the time. That destroys your theory as Gohan went SSJ2 earlier and had sparks. Okay we know that SSJ2 can't kill Fat Boo. We been knew that. Still doesn't explain why he didn't use it. IT was still his best option. That doesn't help the case that he was SSJ2 against Dabura. Jeez. he was SSJ1. Everything points towards it to be honest. Not counting the Daizenshuu. The hair and the lack of sparks.

Ok, before anyone else posts, I want to make another point. I don't want to debate the other one yet until I do, so could you please hear me out?

too late =/.

[Fionordequester]

What you think the readers are retarded? I'm sure Mr.AT knew the reader wasn't retarded.

...Honestly, yes, I do think that Mr. Toriyama thought his audience was retarded, or at least, that the Japanese children he was writing for were retarded. Case in point?





What man who has any faith in his audience would possibly need to feel the need to have to spell things out like this? Which is why I really, REALLY think that if he intended Gohan to not be SSJ2, there would have been SOME comment about it.

Gohan didn't have sparks cause he wasn't SSJ2. Why would he not draw Gohan with sparks. HE ALREADY DREW THEM WHEN HE WENT SSJ2 a few chapters earlier.

Yes, he did draw them...BEFORE Gohan got into his big fight with Dabura. People say that Vegeta and Goku and others kept the sparks even when exhausted, but I'm guessing that's only because they just happened to be THAT FRICKEN POWERFUL. Gohan? Not so much. He's an SSJ2, but a very weak one.

Everything points towards it to be honest. Not counting the Daizenshuu. The hair and the lack of sparks.

You still have yet to disprove my observations about the hair, which I think we've already established is not a reliable indication of which state he's in anyways. But enough of that.

And again, I ask you, how could Gohan have possibly survived this as an SSJ1?

too late =/.

Oh well, let me ask you. According to the Pro-SSJ1 side, SSJ1 Gohan and Dabura were more-or-less equal, right? And also, Supreme Kai and Kibito were stronger than SSJ1 Gohan, right?

[TheGmGoken]

What man who has any faith in his audience would possibly need to feel the need to have to spell things out like this? Which is why I really, REALLY think that if he intended Gohan to not be SSJ2, there would have been SOME comment about it.

Mr. Akira T had said many times that he was the type of writer who expand on things. He's very blunt. Blunt in manga doesn't mean he thinks the reader was retarded. His story was easier to follow then other manga(Well most of them).

Yes, he did draw them...BEFORE Gohan got into his big fight with Dabura. People say that Vegeta and Goku and others kept the sparks even when exhausted, but I'm guessing that's only because they just happened to be THAT FRICKEN POWERFUL. Gohan? Not so much. He's an SSJ2, but a very weak

Mr T. isn't Toei Animation. He didn't forget sparks while in his some-what prime-middle age. Gohan being weaker has nothing to do with the aura and sparks. THat's like saying a tired SSJ doesn't have gold aura.

Oh well, let me ask you. According to the Pro-SSJ1 side, SSJ1 Gohan and Dabura were more-or-less equal, right?

Depends how you look at it. One guidebook said SSJ(Not SSj2) GOhan > Dabura but Gohan skills made him seem weaker which gives Dabura the upper hand. I honestly think Dabura wasn't at full power. Dabura called him trash and wasn't at all impressed. The main reason I say he wasn't SSJ2 was because I have Gohan at Cell Arc Goku Power level. Meaning him as a SSJ2 would beat Dabura as Vegeta said he wasn't unbeatable. I have Vegeta(Pre Majin) stronger than Cell Arc but weaker then Gohan Cell games Arc. So yes Dabura and SSJ Gohan was more or less equal. In both arguments that Gohan skills was the reason or that Dabura wasn't at full power.

[Fionordequester]

Mr. Akira T had said many times that he was the type of writer who expand on things. He's very blunt. Blunt in manga doesn't mean he thinks the reader was retarded. His story was easier to follow then other manga(Well most of them).

Yes, I agree. Which is why I don't think he would've left it up to us to just conclude that Gohan was SSJ1. Also, one more thing...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

So Gohan was COMPLETELY recharged before firing his Kamehameha at Buu anyways, right? So you can argue "then why does he not have sparks even at full power?". However, I take that as an opportunity to say "Why in the world would he NOT be able to go SSJ2 despite being able to do it so easily at the tournament?". I might've accepted an artistic cue before, but this plot point is just beyond dumb if we're to believe that Gohan was SSJ1.

Gohan being weaker has nothing to do with the aura and sparks. THat's like saying a tired SSJ doesn't have gold aura.

You may be right about this. Perhaps Toriyama really did, for some reason, have it in his mind that Gohan was at SSJ1, and the lack of lightning was not just simply an artistic trick he used to show us that Gohan was not as strong as Goku and Vegeta. But honestly, I don't care, not anymore than I care about Ridley Scott saying that Deckard was a replicant at any rate. Because IT STILL MAKES NO SENSE! If you look at the manga, and at Gohan's facial expressions when confronting Kibito, Gohan was relatively relaxed right before going SSJ2 against Kibito (so he wasn't just really angry even before that). So he DOES seem to be able to go SSJ2 without too much trouble, it's just drawing out ALL of it's power that's a problem for him.

And yet, even despite having a stronger motivation for going SSJ2, having recently gotten a Senzu Bean, AND having had no distractions whatsoever from Dabura or anyone else, Gohan was STILL either unable or unwilling to go SSJ2 to stop Buu from hatching? How does that begin to make sense? I GUESS you can argue stress interfering with the transformation, but that still doesn't explain why Gohan would freak out about Majin Buu stomping an SSJ1 tier opponent, or surviving that blast from Buu.

Depends how you look at it. One guidebook said SSJ(Not SSj2) GOhan > Dabura but Gohan skills made him seem weaker which gives Dabura the upper hand. I honestly think Dabura wasn't at full power. Dabura called him trash and wasn't at all impressed. The main reason I say he wasn't SSJ2 was because I have Gohan at Cell Arc Goku Power level. Meaning him as a SSJ2 would beat Dabura as Vegeta said he wasn't unbeatable. I have Vegeta(Pre Majin) stronger than Cell Arc but weaker then Gohan Cell games Arc. So yes Dabura and SSJ Gohan was more or less equal. In both arguments that Gohan skills was the reason or that Dabura wasn't at full power.

So would it be fair to say that Gohan would have absolutely OBLITERATED Dabura at SSJ2?

[TheGmGoken]

Mr. Akira T had said many times that he was the type of writer who expand on things. He's very blunt. Blunt in manga doesn't mean he thinks the reader was retarded. His story was easier to follow then other manga(Well most of them).

Yes, I agree. Which is why I don't think he would've left it up to us to just conclude that Gohan was SSJ1.

Gohan being weaker has nothing to do with the aura and sparks. THat's like saying a tired SSJ doesn't have gold aura.

According to who? Who says that no sparks=no SSJ2? Nappa had sparks when he powered up, didn't he?

Depends how you look at it. One guidebook said SSJ(Not SSj2) GOhan > Dabura but Gohan skills made him seem weaker which gives Dabura the upper hand. I honestly think Dabura wasn't at full power. Dabura called him trash and wasn't at all impressed. The main reason I say he wasn't SSJ2 was because I have Gohan at Cell Arc Goku Power level. Meaning him as a SSJ2 would beat Dabura as Vegeta said he wasn't unbeatable. I have Vegeta(Pre Majin) stronger than Cell Arc but weaker then Gohan Cell games Arc. So yes Dabura and SSJ Gohan was more or less equal. In both arguments that Gohan skills was the reason or that Dabura wasn't at full power.

So would it be fair to say that Gohan would have absolutely OBLITERATED Dabura at SSJ2?

I get back to you with that one. I'm sleepy and going to bed.