How strong was Dabura?
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Fionordequester
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Alright then, sounds good. Now then, to add on one more point (which I added in the previous post)...
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
Re: How strong was Dabura?
Assuming I know which book you're referring to, it does not express he wasn't a SSj2. If everyone hasn't realized it by now, Gohan being a SSj1 is IMPOSSIBLE to work story-wise without skewing material in a particular way, there's no evidence that expresses this on its own without having to give a fabricated theory such as what Gohan was thinking... even though it's never expressed through his statements. So it's a waste of time to think you'll convince anyone with enough experience in the content that it was intended to be viewed that way in the story. It's better sticking with the aura and lightning arguments.TheGmGoken wrote:One guidebook said SSJ(Not SSj2) GOhan > Dabura but Gohan skills made him seem weaker which gives Dabura the upper hand.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Gohan doesn't have to be a SSJ2. Vague statements like Goku's don't mean a damn thing. If they did, I guess Base Gotenks could handle Fat Buu bare minimum. There are a lot of bull shit statements that fly around in the Buu arc and the best way to determine anyone's strength is with feats. Gohan, clearly drawn as a SSJ, fought evenly with Dabura. Dabura is not SSJ2 tier, hell he aint even Perfect Cell tier. The Daizenshuu 7 merely took what Goku had to say about Dabura and slapped into his Daiz 7 profile and made is a vague as possible on purpose because that's what the Daizenshuu do. Yeah, Gohan being a SSJ2 would make the Buu saga inherently better but that's just not how it is. Even if you think Gohan being just a SSJ is just plain wrong from a story prospective, saying Gohan was a SSJ2 when the art clearly defies such a notion is just as wrong. Gohan, again, is clearly drawn as a SSJ. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Still wondering what all the confusion is for.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
^Does this really help with Gohan, though?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong was Dabura?
Yes. A fiercer aura with lightning bolts is a clearly demonstrated visual aspect of Super Saiyan 2. Gohan had a normal Super Saiyan 1 aura instead, so he wasn't a Super Saiyan 2.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:^Does this really help with Gohan, though?
Ta-da. Conundrum over. You've now got that, so figure out the rest of the plot elements around it as you wish.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Yes, there is a lack of lightning around Gohan. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but sparks are clearly a staple of SSJ2s in the manga. Fact. If that's not enough though, Gohan's eyes lack a certain degree of sharpness. There's also the shape of Gohan's aura, which is clearly different than his aura shown at the Budokai.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:^Does this really help with Gohan, though?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
I know about the aura & sparks, and I agree. I'm talking about the face expressions.
It's not that I disagree about Gohan being a Super Saiyan (yep, I again believe that Gohan was a SS, not SS2), I just don't see how this Goku picture helps for Gohan's case.
It's not that I disagree about Gohan being a Super Saiyan (yep, I again believe that Gohan was a SS, not SS2), I just don't see how this Goku picture helps for Gohan's case.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Aside from the sparks, we get a clear demonstration of what the face should look like.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I know about the aura & sparks, and I agree. I'm talking about the face expressions.
It's not that I disagree about Gohan being a Super Saiyan (yep, I again believe that Gohan was a SS, not SS2), I just don't see how this Goku picture helps for Gohan's case.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Yeah, but if we compare SS Gohan's face (not in rested state), and SS2 Gohan's face, we will see great differences like we did with Goku?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong was Dabura?
Even putting aside how minor something like a facial expression is... I don't see any major differences in Gohan's expressions. Anywhere, really, in Super Saiyan 1 or 2.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Which is why Goku's picture doesn't really show anything for Gohan, other than the sparks which is something we always see in Super Saiyan 2.Kaboom wrote:Even putting aside how minor something like a facial expression is... I don't see any major differences in Gohan's expressions. Anywhere, really, in Super Saiyan 1 or 2.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong was Dabura?
He has to be for the story to make sense, notably when Majin Buu is about to be revived. If you can't admit that, then you are too absorbed in this debate to see things objectively. The statement in Daizenshuu 7 is particularly meaningful because they never had to add a number there in the first place. They could've just left it as "Super Saiyan" like they had in previous volumes and it would've still sufficed. The "2" was added for clarity since it is an evidently confusing issue, and I don't even have to tell you that auras weren't viewed as the deciding factor in that.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Gohan doesn't have to be a SSJ2. Vague statements like Goku's don't mean a damn thing. If they did, I guess Base Gotenks could handle Fat Buu bare minimum. There are a lot of bull shit statements that fly around in the Buu arc and the best way to determine anyone's strength is with feats. Gohan, clearly drawn as a SSJ, fought evenly with Dabura. Dabura is not SSJ2 tier, hell he aint even Perfect Cell tier. The Daizenshuu 7 merely took what Goku had to say about Dabura and slapped into his Daiz 7 profile and made is a vague as possible on purpose because that's what the Daizenshuu do. Yeah, Gohan being a SSJ2 would make the Buu saga inherently better but that's just not how it is. Even if you think Gohan being just a SSJ is just plain wrong from a story prospective, saying Gohan was a SSJ2 when the art clearly defies such a notion is just as wrong. Gohan, again, is clearly drawn as a SSJ. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
A person would be within reasonable grounds to say the art depicts him as a SSj2 because there are actual conflicting examples earlier in the arc for there to base an established difference between the two. The idea that is mistaken as if it were some fact is Toriyama randomly changing his SSj1 hairstyle where then both forms would be practically identical... often forgetting that a theory without substantial backing "don't mean a damn thing". Using Gohan's transformation during Videl's match as evidence is unverified because he doesn't have to be a SSj1; as you likely came to that conclusion using the very trait that's in contention.
All that I've read up till now that pretty much makes the foundation of your position in this argument is: 'This is how I interpret things. Now believe it!!' Basically using pressuring tactics to make people accept your perspective as fact since the material does not prove it enough on its own. The irony being that your position is even further from a fact in comparison because it doesn't have an official source that clearly verifies it.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
What that guy said. Not only is Gohan's hair during the Dabura fight clearly different than the only time in the arc where he was ever specified as a normal Super Saiyan (when sparring with Goten), but sparks are NEVER stated to be a requirement for SS2s. Saying that they are is nothing more than your opinion. And not only do you try to force that opinion on others, but you think that this minor visual elements immediately overrides every single plot element, and would rather have every single character be an idiot (and have the Fat Buu scene make no sense... seriously, Gohan not turning SS2 after having all the time in the world and then being impressed that someone he already established as SS2-tier beat someone who was supposedly only MSS-tier?) rather than just admit that someone else may have a legitimate point.
On top of that, the only official statement we EVER got on the matter is that he was a Super Saiyan 2; so not only are you trying to force your interpretation on others, you're saying that your opinion overrides the official word, and are trying to force other people to disregard it. Yet you still have the gall to call people with another opinion on the matter "willfully ignorant" just because they didn't come to the same conclusion as you, and say that there are absolutely no other possible interpretations on the matter ("no if, ands, or buts about it").
On top of that, the only official statement we EVER got on the matter is that he was a Super Saiyan 2; so not only are you trying to force your interpretation on others, you're saying that your opinion overrides the official word, and are trying to force other people to disregard it. Yet you still have the gall to call people with another opinion on the matter "willfully ignorant" just because they didn't come to the same conclusion as you, and say that there are absolutely no other possible interpretations on the matter ("no if, ands, or buts about it").
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Why do all the Super Saiyans 2 have sparks, except for Gohan in those two fights? Why does Gohan have the Super Saiyan aura all the time? Why is his hairstyle more similar to his SS hairstyle from the TB, rather than his SS2 hairstyle?RandomGuy96 wrote:sparks are NEVER stated to be a requirement for SS2s
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Super Saiyan Turlast x4
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
It makes no sense for AT to constantly draw Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta while constantly drawing Gohan as a Super Saiyan throughout. The one thing that makes it odd is Kaioshin's statement about Kibito not seeing how powerful Gohan really is, but maybe he fought Dabra as a Super Saiyan 2 off-panel and ended up having a drop in stamina which made him revert to Super Saiyan or something. He and Dabra did use up most of their energy in the battle.
Either way, from what we see, Gohan is a Super Saiyan. He also notes how Super Saiyan 2 power adds more damage energy to Boo, which implies he and Dabra weren't fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan. Of course Goku and Vegeta were much stronger as a Super Saiyan 2 regardless, but the context of the statement suggests those 2 were the only ones fighting at that level.
Either way, from what we see, Gohan is a Super Saiyan. He also notes how Super Saiyan 2 power adds more damage energy to Boo, which implies he and Dabra weren't fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan. Of course Goku and Vegeta were much stronger as a Super Saiyan 2 regardless, but the context of the statement suggests those 2 were the only ones fighting at that level.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Toriyama drew us a picture clearly showing us what Super Saiyan 1 and 2 each look like. In the original manga. Shown and labeled, and made extremely obvious.
I've said it before: it's that easy. The plot can and does make sense either way, but this is the clear tiebreaker, solving any and all confusion in one solid blow. Everything else is pointless minutiae and doesn't even come close to outweighing it. I have no doubt about this whatsoever in my mind.
I've said it before: it's that easy. The plot can and does make sense either way, but this is the clear tiebreaker, solving any and all confusion in one solid blow. Everything else is pointless minutiae and doesn't even come close to outweighing it. I have no doubt about this whatsoever in my mind.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How strong was Dabura?
Yep, Gohan looks nothing like a Super Saiyan 2. Not SS2 hairstyle, not SS2 aura, not sparks, not any mention about Gohan fighting beyond Super Saiyan (it's always mentioned when someone is SS2), and not any huge amount of energy for Majin Boo (we saw how much energy Super Saiyan 2 Goku & Vegeta gave to Boo).
And also, after checking the quote about Dabra & Cell, it seems that Dabra can be anywhere from Perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell after all.
As for against Boo, the only thing I can think is that Gohan was so panicked that he couldn't think clearly & use Super Saiyan 2.
And also, after checking the quote about Dabra & Cell, it seems that Dabra can be anywhere from Perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell after all.
Plus, what Kaboom said. Super Perfect Cell should be a threat for SS2 Goku & SS2 Vegeta (pre-Majin), since SS2 Goku is slightly stronger than SS2 Gohan (Cell Games), and Vegeta isn't sure if he has surpassed Gohan from the Cell Games, and we know that SP Cell's power rivaled Raged SS2 Gohan's power. However, Dabra is treated like he isn't a threat for Goku, Vegeta, or even Gohan, since Goku & Vegeta believe that Gohan should have beaten Dabra if he hadn't slacked off.Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”
As for against Boo, the only thing I can think is that Gohan was so panicked that he couldn't think clearly & use Super Saiyan 2.
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How strong was Dabura?
It's easily contradicted in one panel, where's he stated to have been SSj2 and doesn't match the visible traits:Kaboom wrote:Toriyama drew us a picture clearly showing us what Super Saiyan 1 and 2 each look like. In the original manga. Shown and labeled, and made extremely obvious.
That solves any and all confusion in one solid blow. Nothing else matters. Everything else is pointless minutiae and doesn't even come close to outweighing it. I have no doubt about this whatsoever in my mind.
Spoiler:
Re: How strong was Dabura?
One panel doesn't beat a hundred. I can easily see myself momentarily forgetting to draw sparks once in a while for a manga with tens of volumes.Son_Gohan wrote: It's easily contradicted in one panel, where's he stated to have been SSj2 and doesn't match the visible traits:
Your example is proven to not apply to everything, even in Goku's case. Generalization does NOT work.Spoiler:
Last edited by hleV on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.