Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Saiga]

Maybe, but I'm fine with the gaps I already have. I was just seeing if my previous numbers would work more than anything.

Of course, I may very well end up changing Fat Boo, Pure Boo or SS3 Goku's battle powers at a later date anyway.

[Mjb1985]

I have Mr Buu and Fat Buu at the same power. I think after Good Buu was absorbed he was able to regain his power as Fat Buu had.

[RandomGuy96]

I have Mr Buu and Fat Bmuthe same power. I think after Good Buu was absorbed he was able to regain his power as Fat Buu had.

Don't you have the Kaioshins weaker than pre ultimate Gohan? Good Buu's max power should be equivalent to South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin at most, since Pure Buu is standing right there. So how do two people that are so weak make someone who is several times stronger than Vegeta...?

I'm considering making South Kaioshin a multiplying absorbption, yet still strong enough on his own to put up a fight against Buu (kind of like the anime), so I can have Good Buu = SK + DK, in other words, slightly stronger than SK, but lacking certain skills. Because of that, he'd be able to give Kid Buu a similar amount of difficulty that Anime South Kaioshin and Manga Kid Buu gave him, thus justifying why Kid Buu would absorb him after beating him, rather than just kill him. Either that or just change Gotenks' SS multipliers and lower power scaling in general.

Maybe, but I'm fine with the gaps I already have. I was just seeing if my previous numbers would work more than anything.Of course, I may very well end up changing Fat Boo, Pure Boo or SS3 Goku's battle powers at a later date anyway.

Are you posting a new list/revising your old one?

[Mjb1985]

I generally go with Ssj Gohan as the bar for Kaioshin ability but I definitely understand the need for why South could be stronger.

But regardless I think South amplifies Buu even if I place South at the maximum amount he could possibly be.

And I think that Good Buu still has a mixture of Buu in there a bit due to the bubblegum skin of course.

[RandomGuy96]

He may physically be a Majin, but his power should be entirely Kaioshin, as Pure Buu is standing right there and is... pure. Unless he somehow created ki from nothing, or Toriyama had Kibito Kai be wrong and the Buu Goku fought is not the original, and is in fact MUCH weaker than the original. Which wouldn't make a ton of sense.

Do you have any specific formula for how the Kais amplify Buu?

[Kamiccolo9]

He may physically be a Majin, but his power should be entirely Kaioshin, as Pure Buu is standing right there and is... pure. Unless he somehow created ki from nothing, or Toriyana had Kibito Kai be wrong and the Buu Goku fought is MUCH weaker than the original.

Do you have any specific formula for how the Kais amplify Buu?

Well, he is made of magic. And he's kind of a fusion. Both things that have been seen to create ki from nothing.

[Mjb1985]

Well he is still a Buu at the end of the day. And I believe that there is still some spawn of Kid Buu in there somehow someway.

I bet pissing off Good Buu a lot is not on the agenda for anyone on Earth.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, so... I did those revisions I spoke about. Yeah, I revise my Buu Saga lists a lot. It's on page 120. I went with:

Buff Buu = (Kid Buu + South Kaioshin) x 2.5

Super Buu = (Evil Buu + Good Buu) x 2

Good Buu = South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin

South Kaioshin >>>> West Kaioshin > North Kaioshin > Grand Kaioshin > East Kaioshin = Cell Junior

Important numbers:

Gotenks (pre-ROSAT)
--Super Saiyan- 23,000,000,000

Gotenks is strong enough to beat Fat Buu, but not so strong that Goku still doesn't consider it a gamble.

Fat Buu- 20,000,000,000
--Angered to the Point of Splitting- 90,000,000,000

Fat Buu is so strong that it is said that even Goku and Vegeta together as SS2s can't beat him, but is obviously not as strong as SS3 Goku. When he gets angry, his power draws out and he gets one last power up, right before he spits out Evil Buu. This power, not his previous, weaker power, is what is divided between the Buus.

Evil Buu- 52,000,000,000
Good Buu- 38,000,000,000

Evil Buu did better against Fat Buu than Kid Buu did, which to me indicates he's stronger. When run through the above formula, they form Super Buu. (38,000,000,000 + 52,000,000,000) x 2 = 180,000,000,000.

Gotenks (post-ROSAT)
--Super Saiyan- 27,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 220,000,000,000

He powers up a lot after the ROSAT, and is now able to obliterate Super Buu in combat, but he screws around a lot and his fusion wears off before he can finish Buu.

Super Buu-
--Initial- 32,000,000,000
--Full Power- 180,000,000,000
---Mouth Blast- 225,000,000,000

Initial Super Buu was sensed from the Kaioshin Realm, but was actually damaged by Gotenks' headbutt and Kamikaze Ghosts, and wasn't implied to be as strong as he was later. Piccolo also thought that SS Gotenks would at least have a chance. Full power Super Buu can put up a fight against Gotenks, but is clearly weaker, and is on the losing side for the entire fight.

Ultimate Gohan- 300,000,000,000

Pounds the crap out of Super Buu. I like that this number is nice and even.

Good Buu- 38,000,000,000

He can at least hold his own against Kid Buu in the parts of the fight we see, but is clearly at a disadvantage. His power is equivalent to Dai Kaioshin's added to South Kaioshin's.

Goku- 102,500,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 5,125,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 41,000,000,000

Goku's stronger and more skilled than Good Buu, and so can keep up with Kid Buu better, but is still defeated quickly due to the stamina issue and later admits that he needs to train to become better if he wants to beat Kid Buu one on one.

Kid Buu- 45,000,000,000

Self-explanatory based on the other levels.

South Kaioshin- 35,000,000,000
West Kaioshin- 5,000,000,000
North Kaioshin- 4,000,000,000
Grand Kaioshin- 3,000,000,000
East Kaioshin- 2,400,000,000

South Kaioshin is much weaker than Kid Buu, but due to his skills and possibly some powerful techniques he was able to put up a fight and actually damage Buu. However his weakness became apparent, and despite Buu's lack of skills his raw power and abilities were still way too much for the Kaioshin. He could only keep up for a short time before being beaten. However, his power convinced Buu that he was worthy of absorbing, as this was the first time Buu ever felt pain or had a challenge. Upon gaining a bunch of power, he became greedy and sought to absorb the next big source of power he saw, but that obviously backfired when the Grand Kaioshin's gentle heart sealed his power and altered his personality significantly. Grand Kaioshin is much stronger than East, as he was stated to be the weakest Kaioshin, but still weaker than the rest to avoid making Good Buu too close to Kid Buu. When the above formula is run with South Kaioshin and Kid Buu, it makes Buff Buu: (45,000,000,000 + 35,000,000,000) x 2.5 = 200,000,000,000

The North, West, and East Kaioshins are all much weaker than South and more in the same tier as Grand, because I think that South Kaioshin was kind of their Goku; he was just way ahead of everyone else. Given how big of a deal East Kaioshin makes out of SS2 Gohan and Dabura (who I have at 7 and 6 billion respectively), I think they should be very strong by Kaioshin standards... again, except for South.

Also, I did this:

Vegeta- 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 8,000,000,000
---Hidden Power- 10,000,000,000
---Majin Super Saiyan 2- 10,500,000,000

I just chose to make Majin Vegeta higher than I had him before because of that line about Babidi drawing out his hidden power and pushing it beyond its limits. That to me implies a very beefy power up. Still only equal to Goku though.

Is that more or less preferable to the way I had it earlier? I kind of like it because it also fits with that filler fight and doesn't make Buu's absorbption technique look so stupidly broken that he managed to absorb someone way stronger than him (I obviously think he beat South Kaioshin and weakened him a lot). It also puts a bigger space between Fat Buu and Vegeta, which is never a bad thing.

[Mjb1985]

I think the " gamble " is all about Goku not even giving his all and leaving it up to the boys. Not that the boys couldn't do it. If Goku couldn't do it himself, it wouldn't be a gamble, it would be that Gotenks was their only hope.

Fat Buu should never be stronger than Goku no matter how angry imo. The plane of power reserved for being superior to Goku is only for Super Buu. Hence the commentary for Super Buu and notice how there was no commentary for Fat Buu, Evil Buu or Good Buu.

[RandomGuy96]

I think the " gamble " is all about Goku not even giving his all and leaving it up to the boys. Not that the boys couldn't do it. If Goku couldn't do it himself, it wouldn't be a gamble, it would be that Gotenks was their only hope.

Fat Buu should never be stronger than Goku no matter how angry imo. The plane of power reserved for being superior to Goku is only for Super Buu. Hence the commentary for Super Buu and notice how there was no commentary for Fat Buu, Evil Buu or Good Buu.

Well, I interpret it differently. And I think that Gotenks could do it, but that he's not 100% assured to godstomp Buu. Goku can handle it himself... he's over twice as strong as Fat Buu.

As far as anyone (but Goku) knows, Fat Buu is already stronger than Goku, so any rage boost should also keep him above Goku. I also don't take the whole commentary thing into account, mostly because Super Buu seemed to get much less hype than he should have with his level of superiority to Fat Buu, so nothing new here, and because I think that both Good Buus are the same being.

[Mjb1985]

Goku said that Gotenks would definitely win as well.

[dbzfan7]

I preparing a list soon. But i'm still not settled on a few points such as the SSJ2 Gohan case. Babidi's underlings compared to the Cyborgs etc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I preparing a list soon. But i'm still not settled on a few points such as the SSJ2 Gohan case. Babidi's underlings compared to the Cyborgs etc.

Oooooh, you've been working on a list? Neat .

[dbzfan7]

I preparing a list soon. But i'm still not settled on a few points such as the SSJ2 Gohan case. Babidi's underlings compared to the Cyborgs etc.

Oooooh, you've been working on a list? Neat .

I'm only doing Trunks to Boo for now.

[RandomGuy96]

SS2 Gohan as in, the Buu Saga?

And what's the problem with comparison between Babidi's minions and the androids...? Unless you believe base saiyans > Freeza, it seems straightforward that Pui Pui and Yakon are much weaker than the androids while Dabura is much stronger.

Goku said that Gotenks would definitely win as well.

Goku said a lot of things early in the saga. I consider it one of his statements like "I need to fuse with Vegeta to beat Fat Buu", "the kids are our only hope", "I can't beat Fat Buu", "if Vegeta couldn't beat him, then I definitely can't", et cetera. He said the whole "nasty gamble" thing later. Mostly because it doesn't contradict anything, and I'm a minimalist, so the common "SS Gotenks = SS3 Goku" theory is an absolute no no for me.

Why? Do you think that SS Gotenks (pre) should be able to godstomp Fat Buu?

On another note, I decided that South Kaioshin's absorption (which I changed to (A + B) x 2.5, because I think previously I had too big of a difference between Buff and Super) wasn't ridiculously powerful compared to the others; he just gave a very slightly larger multiplication boost. Because of his godly ki, because he was the first one to be absorbed, because of his body type and wisdom, whatever. I think that there was a little multiplication involved in his other absorptions as well (except Buuccolo; Piccolo and the kids were too weak to give him the multiplication boost).

Buutenks: (220,000,000,000 + 180,000,000,000) x 2 = 800,000,000,000
Buuhan: (320,000,000,000 + 180,000,000,000) x 2 = 1,000,000,000,000
Hypothetical Gogeta (SS3)- 830,000,000,000

I did this mostly to avoid having South Kaioshin's case be unique for no reason, and to fit Buuhan's and Buutenks' predictions of a hypothetical SS3 Gogeta. I also like having the strongest villain in the manga at a nice even 1 trillion.

[dbzfan7]

SS2 Gohan as in, the Buu Saga?

And what's the problem with comparison between Babidi's minions and the androids...? Unless you believe base saiyans > Freeza, it seems straightforward that Pui Pui and Yakon are much weaker than the androids while Dabura is much stronger.

I believe in Freeza>Base Saiyans as stated in BoG. I would also think Pui Pui and Yakon are below Freeza. Problem is also with Dabra as I have yet to decide on which side to take on his power level.

[RandomGuy96]

But how is it a problem to compare him to the cyborgs...? Unless you count Cell as a cyborg.

[Kaboom]

I wouldn't personally put much faith in Boo's claim that a Goku/Vegeta Fusion wouldn't be able to beat him. Mainly because he was still making that same claim even while Vegetto was effortlessly pummeling him. It strikes me as typical villain arrogance, much like Freeza still thinking he was Super Saiyan Goku's superior even while getting his tush kicked.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think Gotenks could take Buu prior to the ROSAT but it wouldn't be an easy victory. Hell, he likely wouldn't even win because he's so full of himself. He would just mess around. I never took to the idea that Gotenks was stronger than Goku without SSJ2 though. Gotenks merely has to be stronger than Buu, not SSJ3 Goku. Goku merely said Gotenks was stronger to put faith into the idea. No one would bank on it had Goku said, "yeah I'm probably stronger but who cares, lets let 2 kids under the age of 10 handle this ".

[RandomGuy96]

I wouldn't personally put much faith in Boo's claim that a Goku/Vegeta Fusion wouldn't be able to beat him. Mainly because he was still making that same claim even while Vegetto was effortlessly pummeling him. It strikes me as typical villain arrogance, much like Freeza still thinking he was Super Saiyan Goku's superior even while getting his tush kicked.

I do put a lot of stock in Buu's claim, mostly because he not only is the most qualified person around to make such a judgement, but he actually lets Goku have time to fuse with someone, saying it won't beat him anyway. Even when he senses Vegeta show up, he doesn't take any effort at all to rush to Goku, continues going at his brisk pace, and remains confident that a fusion of the two would be pointless. Super Buu is one of the smarter villains in the series, has the knowledge of two of the series smartest characters, is one of the only villains who ever completely admits to being surpassed (with Gohan), and has seen dance fusion in action; he also has the memories of guys who actually did the dance fusion, and the memories of the guy who taught the fusion, sensed the kids, and saw it happen multiple times. I highly doubt that this was just normal villain arrogance when he was sooo confident that they'd be nothing to him, and actually had a lot of ways of knowing this. There's just no way he could've predicted Potara.

It's not just that line though. The Daizenshuu outright states Gohan = Goten in battle power terms, which obviously means that Gogeta can't be miles ahead of Gotenks, unless they magically get a bigger multiplier because lolgokuwank. I ignore that statement, but still, it should give you a good idea of where the official stance on hypothetical manga Gogeta is. Every single hint we get about him suggests he's not all that great. Hell, the Daizenshuu also says that the dance is more like addition while Potara is more like multiplication, implying a massive difference between Vegetto and Gogeta, while also going hand in hand with the other implication that Gotenks isn't a complete bug to Gogeta.

I also like the idea of the mightiest villain in the comic actually being mighty, and a new magical power up being required to beat him. I fully believe that if they just tried to dance fuse, Buuhan would've just kicked their ass(es?).

On a side note, that makes Janemba pretty weak in my books. Only moderately stronger than SS2 Gotenks.

And even if I didn't think all of that, that's just how it would scale for me anyway, due to my preference of not having South Kaioshin's absorption be completely beastly compared to the others.