Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gogeta gets a bigger boost because Goku and Vegeta make for a more complete fusion IMO. I also don't take Buuhan seriously at all here. In the manga, Buuhan doesn't toy with Vegeta and Goku, Goku warps to Vegeta and fuses with him before Buuhan has time to react. All his statements about fusion won't do any good are well before Vegeta shows up. Secondly, even if Gogeta doesn't give a bigger boost, SSJ3 Gogeta should, and would according to my levels, be enough to handle Buuhan. You also have to take into account basic villain arrogance.

[RandomGuy96]

Gogeta gets a bigger boost because Goku and Vegeta make for a more complete fusion IMO. I also don't take Buuhan seriously all here. In the manga, Buuhan doesn't toy with Vegeta and Goku, Goku warps to Vegeta and fuses with him before Buuhan has time to react. All his statements about fusion won't do any good are well before Vegeta shows up. Secondly, even if Gogeta doesn't give a bigger boost. SSJ3 Gogeta should, and would according to my levels, be enough to handle Buuhan.

That was just pulled out of nowhere, and not suggested anywhere. There's no real reason that they'd be a "more complete fusion" (whatever that means) than their sons. Also, Buuhan still says that the fusion won't do any good well after Vegeta shows up and he senses them. He's not worried in the least and doesn't try to speed up or anything.

And, according to my levels, he'd still get his ass kicked. I like it that way, for the reasons said above. Nothing suggests Gogeta is anything special, and all of the hints we're given suggest he's weaker than Buuhan. Official guidebook statements would also disagree with the idea that Gogeta is over twice as strong as Gotenks, unless you think Goku is over twice as strong as Gohan in the Babidi Arc.

You also have to take into account basic villain arrogance.

As I said: Buuhan has the knowledge of two of the series smartest characters and two people who actually performed the fusion. One of those characters also happened to have witnessed the fusion numerous times and taught in the first place. There is no reason at all he wouldn't know how strong a hypothetical Gogeta would be, and his cavalier attitude shows he isn't worried about this guy's strength at all.

[Draken]

Gogeta gets a bigger boost because Goku and Vegeta make for a more complete fusion IMO. I also don't take Buuhan seriously at all here. In the manga, Buuhan doesn't toy with Vegeta and Goku, Goku warps to Vegeta and fuses with him before Buuhan has time to react. All his statements about fusion won't do any good are well before Vegeta shows up. Secondly, even if Gogeta doesn't give a bigger boost. SSJ3 Gogeta should, and would according to my levels, be enough to handle Buuhan. You also have to take into account basic villain arrogance.

I go with this as well, it's not quite as good as the Potara fusion, but just the fact that it's Goku and Vegeta makes the fusion better. That's what Old Kai himself said.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Since it's Goku and Vegeta, the Potara fusion was even more extreme than regular Potara fusion, so I think that that would be the same with Metamor, because it's two of the top 3 masters who happen to be rivals and perfectly match each other, they make a better Metamor fusion.

And villain arrogance.

*While being effortlessly pummeled and putting up zero resistance while putting in 100% effort*
"I'M STILL STRONGER THAN YOU" - Buu

[RandomGuy96]

Since it's Goku and Vegeta, the Potara fusion was even more extreme than regular Potara fusion, so I think that that would be the same with Metamor, because it's two of the top 3 masters who happen to be rivals and perfectly match each other, they make a better Metamor fusion.

That rival boost was never confirmed to have existed. Why would it anyway? If it did, that would be the dumbest excuse for Goku wank EVER. The earrings magically decided that they're going to make the fusion stronger because these two people hate each other? Goku and Vegeta magically getting a bigger boost is also never suggested either.

I always interpreted the "rivals" comment as "close in power". The widely separate powers is the reasons Kibito Kai didn't get the big boost IMO.

The Daizenshuu also says Potara is like multiplication while Dance Fusion is more like addition. If that doesn't imply a MASSIVE difference, I don't know what does.

And I've addressed that "villain arrogance" comment numerous times. When he was being pummeled by Vegetto, he was enraged and desperate. When he was dismissing a Vegeta-Goku fusion, he was calm, in control, and had a ton of knowledge that would let him make an educated guess. Educated guess based on the knowledge of a fusion, the guy who taught them fusion, and the most book smart character in the series >>>>>>>>> a guess from a fan based on nothing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh? Well explain why he is gung ho to kill them right here before he lets them fuse:

Spoiler:

Then explain to me why Buu has that look of "Oh shit" when the fuse here:

Spoiler:

Seriously, basic villain arrogance.

[RandomGuy96]

Why would he let them fuse? He didn't take a lot of effort to get them but he's not going to deal with a potential threat if he doesn't have to. When he's flying to get them, he's still thinking that they won't be enough to beat him. He's thinking to himself and making a guess based on the knowledge of Piccolo, Gohan, and Gotenks, he has no reason to lie or gloat here.

That's not an oh crap face, that's just a general surprised face. And right after, he goes right back to his normal attitude, and acts extremely shocked when he's surpassed, so he obviously wasn't worried about them merging at all.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why would he let them fuse?

Woah, lets back up now, you just said he would let them fuse a moment ago. Why wouldn't he now? His face goes back to normal because basic villain arrogance.

[dbzfan7]

I'm with Random. I don't see why Gogeta should be any more special than Gotenks. Maybe SSJ3 Gogeta could beat Boohan. But that I'm not to sure about.

[RandomGuy96]

Why would he let them fuse?

Woah, lets back up now, you just said he would let them fuse a moment ago. Why wouldn't he now? His face goes back to normal because basic villain arrogance.

He gave Goku five seconds to find a fusion partner just to screw with him, and then when the five seconds were up, he went to kill him. Goku teleported away to fuse with Vegeta, and Buuhan chases after them. While his time limit ran out, he again is not worried about them in the least.

And seriously, stop with the basic villain arrogance comment, I just debunked that. He has a ton of knowledge to make an educated guess, more knowledge than he needs probably, and is still thinking that he'll trash a potential Goku-Vegeta fusion while flying there. He isn't even scared when they fuse, just surprised (probably because of the weird way they fused).

Gogeta getting an extra super special boost is baseless, not suggested anywhere, and defies the implications from both the manga and the guidebooks (which contain the comments about Goten's strength and the difference between the dance and the earrings).

An in-universe educated guess based on the knowledge of a fusion and two of the smartest characters in the series, included one who taught fusion and witnessed it performed numerous times, backed by guidebook information > a fan opinion based on nothing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You haven't debunked anything . Right because Rou Kaioshin's statement means nothing .

[Draken]

Old Kai implies it's special because it's those two.

[RandomGuy96]

You seem to be incapable of making an argument other than "Gogeta is way stronger than Gotenks because he gets a super special power up that Gotenks didn't get for no reason, and anything that contradicts that is just villain arrogance".

Seriously. He has no reason at all to lie/exaggerate to HIMSELF when he has a ton of knowledge that would let him guess how strong Gogeta is. Of course he wouldn't predict that Gogeta would get a magical power up that Gotenks didn't for no reason- but that's because it wasn't even implied anywhere. It's almost like it doesn't exist.

Old Kai implies it's special because it's those two.

How does his statement imply that Goku and Vegeta would magically get a better boost on dance fusion? All he says is that Vegetto is powerful because Goku and Vegeta are also powerful, and because they're "rivals", which like I said I don't interpret that in a personality sense, because that'd be dumb. I interpret that as "they're close in power", or "they rival each other". Even if you do think a rival boost applies, there's no reason at all it would apply to dance fusion.

[Draken]

So what's your theory on why Kibito Kai was so useless and Vegetto was not? If it's Goku+Vegeta closer in power then where is that implied anywhere?

[RandomGuy96]

Old Kai's statement. Like I said, that's how I interpret the rival remark.

[Draken]

Old Kai's statement. Like I said, that's how I interpret the rival remark.

Well that's how you interpret it, I've told you how I interpret it. So I'd thank you to not call my theories baseless and say I'm incapable since you're doing the same thing.

[RandomGuy96]

I was talking to Ozaru with that comment by the way. He keeps saying "villain arrogance" and completely ignoring everything I say. Anyway:

With that guidebook information taken into account, if you believe Vegetto and Gogeta aren't miles apart, then Gogeta gets a RIDICULOUSLY massive power up compared to Gotenks, even though nothing like that was stated (you'd think that something like that would be important), it violates the implications about dance fusion (that it's like addition while potara is like multiplication), and Goten and Trunks were also rivals. I also think that the idea of the earrings and especially the dance boosting Gogeta massively based on his fusees being "rivals" is just... stupid. The earrings/dance just magically detected that and conjured up a bunch of ki?

[Draken]

I was talking to Ozaru with that comment by the way. He keeps saying "villain arrogance" and completely ignoring everything I say. Anyway:

With that guidebook information taken into account, if you believe Vegetto and Gogeta aren't miles apart, then Gogeta gets a RIDICULOUSLY massive power up compared to Gotenks, even though nothing like that was stated, it violates the implications about dance fusion (that it's like addition while potara is like multiplication), and Goten and Trunks were also rivals. I also think that the idea of the earrings and especially the dance boosting Gogeta massively based on his fusees being "rivals" is just... stupid.

Well with rivals it can be the more complete fusion theory, which kinda goes off your own Potara theory. Vegeta (after Majin) and Goku are pretty much 100% equal, as compared to Goten and Trunks (Trunks needs to suppress himself). Vegeta and Goku and conflicting traits that are almost exact opposite that, when fused together, make them into a near perfect being with heightened battle sense, great reflexes, etc etc. Thus, a fusion of Goku and Vegeta will always be superior to a fusion of Goten and Trunks at equal levels.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Base Gotenks had no reason to lie or exaggerate when he said he could beat Buu in his base form even though he already fought him and knows how powerful he is. Arrogance. You can believe Buuhan is stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta if you want, it's not an illogical theory, however, using Buu's arrogant ass statement is not a point you should toss out there as proof. There are dumbass statements thrown around left and right in this arc, feats are what truly determine how powerful these characters are. That aside, Rou Kaioshin states, Vegetto is as powerful as he is because the Vegeta and Goku make for a more complete fusion. Why should that be Potara specific? Gogeta being a superior fusion has been theorized by people for a long time now and it's not completely baseless.

[RandomGuy96]

Well then, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I just think that the whole "complete fusion" theory is unsubstantiated, illogical, and unnecessary Gogeta wank, that defies implications from the manga and guidebooks. Buuhan will always be able to beat SS3 Gogeta in my book, and the fusion formula will always be consistent. Like I said, on top of all of the evidence and implications presented, I just like the idea of the mightiest villain in Z requiring a magical power up from the gods to beat, and being completely unstoppable otherwise. I also like the idea of South Kaioshin's absorption not being absurdly powerful compared to the others.

And yes, Buuhan's statement is legitimate proof. As I've pointed out a million times, he has the minds of Piccolo, who taught the fusion and witnessed it numerous times, Goten and Trunks, who actually performed the fusion, Gohan, who also saw the fusion and knows fully the power of the kids, and the original Super Buu, who fought a metamoran fusion. He is the most qualified person around to make such a judgement, and there's no reason at all he'd be wrong here. The only way he can possibly be wrong is if Gogeta gets a super special power up compared to Gotenks.

And many believe base Gotenks post > Fat Buu anyway. I don't, but it's still a legitimate theory.

Oh, and he NEVER says it's because "they make for a more complete fusion". He says that Vegetto is strong because Vegeta and Goku are strong and rivals (which can be interpreted as either a personality thing or a power thing). Nothing about their fusion being "complete", or them always making a better fusion than people of similar power levels.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo also thought base Gotenks could handle Buu . Not the sharpest tool in the shed in this arc.