Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

The Earth can be blown up by Vegeta with a BP of roughly 18,000. Vegeta was well beyond 150,000,000 when he killed 19. It should have blown up Earth well over 100 times. Also, even if you don't believe Vegeta can do this, Freeza with a BP of 530,000 destroyed Planet Vegeta, which has 10 times the gravity of Earth.

[RandomGuy96]

Well Janenba's full power was just masked by his larger form. His Ki is still what caused this. He's clearly up there since Toei stated he is superior to Hirudegarn.

I can argue that he didn't gain that power until after transforming. So Fat Janemba = Buuhan now? And evidence that his ki caused this? Janemba's reality warping abilities don't seem to depend on ki, they seem more magical. He does things like materialize things, create portals, make himself intangible, revive the dead, et cetera. None of these are tied to ki, so why should him collapsing dimensions with his existence be? On top of that, Janemba seems to have the power of creation; he created a clone of Goku that was just as strong as Goku himself and those jelly bean things he spawn seem to come out of nowhere.

The dude is basically a god compared to what we usually see in DBZ, at least in non-ki abilities. Fun fact: he's one of the most favored Dragon Ball characters when it comes to comic versus debates.

Just because he's stronger than Hirudegarn doesn't mean he's anywhere near base manga Super Buu. I'd disagree with that observation on the website anyway (it didn't seem like it was written by someone who knew any more than we did; they just connected dots), mostly because Hirudegarn knocked Goku around like a volley ball while Goku could at least hit and damaged Janemba. But even with it, it doesn't really prove anything other than that Gohan and Gotenks are weak in that film, just like they were retconned to be weak in the anime.

Speaking of feats... as I've said, someone calc'd Kid Buu's Vanishing Ball at fifty times the power needed to bust Jupiter, and hundreds of thousands times what is needed to bust Earth.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15373

Anyone with better knowledge than me wanna tell me how much stronger than Kid Buu a character would need to be to blow up the sun?

I'm making some ground numbers to help make power levels for the Arrival Trunks and onward. So far I'm having trouble with Piccolo and Vegeta's starting point, the humans (except Krillin), and Gohan.

Piccolo and Vegeta I have trouble deciding upon there levels and who is even stronger. People have made a good case for both.

The humans had to have gotten some gains on Kaio's planet during there time there. I'm thinking around the 40,000 point (except Chaozu).

Gohan was 250,000 at the start of the Freeza fight. And he seemed to get stronger throughout it. So i'm thinking of a basis for him. I don't think he trained after Namek.

I still don't know what do with the humans. Gero saying that Yamcha will give him a lot of energy, the Ginyu filler, and Gero mistaking Yamcha for Goku suggest that they're on par with the base saiyans in the android arc, which is silly. I have them in the millions by that point at the moment, but I will probably change that later. If I were to go by logical power scaling, I'd just give them moderately larger gains than Goku got on King Kai's planet, because they asked for harder training, were there longer, had sparring partners, and didn't waste time learning new techniques. Roughly 25 times strong as they were before, with Tien and Chiaotzu getting larger gains, like x30-35 due to the fact that they were there longer than Yamcha. Then just give them comparable gains to the base saiyans during the android training and the seven year time skip to the Buu Saga.

Gohan was 200,000 at the start of the fight actually. I've taken to having him be in the millions by the end, and comparable to Piccolo, maybe even slightly stronger (though far behind by the time Goku returns from Yardrat), because he got a very noticeable zenkai at a time when Vegeta and Goku also got multi-fold boosts, and didn't appear to be enraged when knocking around form three Freeza. He also trained with his Super Saiyan father and Piccolo, so I don't think he'd be very far behind the other base saiyans in the android arc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The point is, he had the power all along, the feat happened and Janenba's energy was condensed into that yellow thing. I agree, the Janenba/Hirudegarn comparison is retarded but, we can't really argue with it. Umm, Cell can blow up the Sun IMO.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm asking if anyone actually wants to do the math (and see if the above calculation is accurate) to see if Fusion Saga characters can star bust.

Evidence that he had that power all along and didn't gain it through the transformation? And again, none of Janemba's other god-like abilities were tied to ki, so I don't see how this would be tied to ki either.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's a cartoon.... You can't really do the maths. To quote you though, Why would Cell say he could blow up the Solar System if it wasn't true? Transformations bring more of your own Ki to the surface. You don't just instantly acquire Ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Since movie 4 is said to take place at the same time as the Namek Arc in the Daizenshuu, yet movie 5 references the Freeza fight, which couldn't have happened if Goku wasn't on Namek.

With proper imagination, (an alternative) Freeza arc can happen after M4.

Plus, Toryama's quote that the movies were in different dimensions (plural) than the manga wouldn't really make sense if they were all in the same continuity. The Daizenshuu doesn't even count them all in the same continuity, as seen with it's timeline only counting movies 1 and 5.

I thought that Japanese don't have plural?

The Daizenshuu doesn't even count them all in the same continuity, as seen with it's timeline only counting movies 1 and 5.

That's different. This wasn't the alternative dimension(s), it was the main timeline, where they decided that M1 & M5 tool place there as well. I doesn't mean that these movies never happened in the alternative one(s).

But feats don't really matter.Look at Family Kamehameha not destroying the sun, yet made from people, who are probably greater than Cell combined.

Yet the Sun was destroyed by Coola's Supernova.

[Kamiccolo9]

If your going to assume that alternate versions of the manga arcs occur, then why is it any less valid to assume instead that M12 just implies that alternate versions of the movies may have occurred? Nothing in M12 explicitly says that the events of M1-11 took place.

I'm just going with what the translation on this site said.

Again, if you're saying that alternate manga events are possible, what makes alternate movie events any less valid?

[dbzfan7]

I still don't know what do with the humans. Gero saying that Yamcha will give him a lot of energy, the Ginyu filler, and Gero mistaking Yamcha for Goku suggest that they're on par with the base saiyans in the android arc, which is silly. I have them in the millions by that point at the moment, but I will probably change that later. If I were to go by logical power scaling, I'd just give them moderately larger gains than Goku got on King Kai's planet, because they asked for harder training, were there longer, had sparring partners, and didn't waste time learning new techniques. Roughly 25 times strong as they were before, with Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu getting larger gains, like x30-35 due to the fact that they were there longer than Yamcha. Then just give them comparable gains to the base saiyans during the android training and the seven year time skip to the Buu Saga.

Gohan was 200,000 at the start of the fight actually. I've taken to having him be in the millions by the end, and comparable to Piccolo, maybe even slightly stronger (though far behind by the time Goku returns from Yardrat), because he got a very noticeable zenkai at a time when Vegeta and Goku also got multi-fold boosts, and didn't appear to be enraged when knocking around form three Freeza. He also trained with his Super Saiyan father and Piccolo, so I don't think he'd be very far behind the other base saiyans in the android arc.

I may not include the humans as I have no idea what to do with them. And yeah I just guessed Gohans Freeza level and didn't bother to check as I'm not doing the Freeza saga just yet. Vegeta and Piccolo trained during the absence of Goku but I don't know how they compare to each other.

[Kamiccolo9]

I may not include the humans as I have no idea what to do with them. And yeah I just guessed Gohans Freeza level and didn't bother to check as I'm not doing the Freeza saga just yet. Vegeta and Piccolo trained during the absence of Goku but I don't know how they compare to each other.

For Vegeta and Piccolo, I personally don't have Vegeta improving all that much here. He didn't have his gravity chamber yet, he had no sparring partners, and no transformations. So I had him only slightly stronger than his Freeza Arc counterpart.
I had Piccolo, on the other hand, improving a great deal due to his fusion with Nail drawing out their combined latent powers. He was willing to fight Vegeta, so he should be at least on the same level.
Still, Vegeta didn't feel too threatened by him, so I'd say he's still slightly ahead. Maybe a Vegeta-Dodoria type gap could work here?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, if you're saying that alternate manga events are possible, what makes alternate movie events any less valid?

Because there is no need for alternative movie events.

[dbzfan7]

For Vegeta and Piccolo, I personally don't have Vegeta improving all that much here. He didn't have his gravity chamber yet, he had no sparring partners, and no transformations. So I had him only slightly stronger than his Freeza Arc counterpart.
I had Piccolo, on the other hand, improving a great deal due to his fusion with Nail drawing out their combined latent powers. He was willing to fight Vegeta, so he should be at least on the same level.
Still, Vegeta didn't feel too threatened by him, so I'd say he's still slightly ahead. Maybe a Vegeta-Dodoria type gap could work here?

I have them pretty close. Though Vegeta has a significant lead. Not ginormous, but significant.

So far I got something like this. Should Gohan be higher up?

Arrival of Trunks

Goku: 4,000,000
SSJ Goku: 200,000,000
Vegeta: 2,800,000
Piccolo: 2,600,000
Gohan: 1,500,000
Trunks: 3,400,000
SSJ Trunks: 170,000,000
Mecha Freeza: 140,000,000
King Cold: 100,000,000

[Kamiccolo9]

Again, if you're saying that alternate manga events are possible, what makes alternate movie events any less valid?

Because there is no need for alternative movie events.

Likewise, there is no need for alternate manga events. M5 referred directly to the Namek Arc. Why should we assume that it happened differently, when nothing of that nature is stated or implied at all?

This post explains my position a lot better than I could. Incidentally, he was responding to you

Why make up many different versions when we have one version for each movie?

I think what you're asking is:

"Why should we think/assume/presume/consider multiple universes for movies when we could just assume they all take place in the exact same universe?"

Because there are too many internal inconsistencies for each and every single other movie and special to work perfectly well with each other. Some of the movies presume that things in the manga / TV series went as-is instead of presuming that the rest of the movies were the ones that came before them. That means they can't exist in the same universe together. So then you're stuck wondering, "OK, so how many universes within the span of the 13 DBZ movies are there?" and the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper.

Sure, if you want to theorize on it and say, "Yes! DBZ Movies 2-4, for the purposes of my own discussion, take place one after another in the same universe!"... well, that's fine! But it's also possible it doesn't happen that way in someone else's theory.

EDIT: hleV put it nice and succinct right below me, here .

dbzfan7- I might put Gohan a little higher, but that depends more on where you place Freeza's 3rd form. I also have Goku being barely stronger than he was on Namek, since he would have had the same training limitations that Vegeta had, as well as I think he spent more time getting accustomed to SSJ and learning Instant Transmission than he did training.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Good list so far. I don't think Gohan got that strong but it's a possibility so no beef here.

[dbzfan7]

dbzfan7- I might put Gohan a little higher, but that depends more on where you place Freeza's 3rd form. I also have Goku being barely stronger than he was on Namek, since he would have had the same training limitations that Vegeta had, as well as I think he spent more time getting accustomed to SSJ and learning Instant Transmission than he did training.

Goku seemed to get strong enough to the point Trunks is really impressed. I have Trunks as the one who is only a little stronger than Goku Namek. Maybe an extra mill is to high?

Good list so far. I don't think Gohan got that strong but it's a possibility so no beef here.

Random thought Gohan wasn't really rage boosted when he attacked Freeza at 3rd form. Looking back at the manga he seemed to just blast him with everything he got (could possibly have been rage boosted). So it seems like a good case he would be at least 1,000,000 to push around Freeza (3rd form). Maybe I could scale it back a little lower though. If I had to guess 3rd form Freeza he would be at least 3,000,000 as Gohan didn't seem to hurt Freeza at all.

[RandomGuy96]

Nothing wrong so far. Assuming Gohan wasn't training, I don't think he needs to be buffed either.

@Kamiccolo: But Goku had two years to train and is implied to have improved a lot (effortlessly handles ng Trunks, making Trunks fanboy over him, dispatching a stronger Freeza and Cold in the other dimension).

Mecha Freeza and Cold together IMO can beat Namek Goku, but can't do much to Yardrat Goku.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't think that's the case, he's clearly pissed off so I can see a rage boost here. It doesn't have to be, which is why I'm not arguing with your placement, but I just don't agree with it because of the Armored Squad placements.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think that's the case, he's clearly pissed off so I can see a rage boost here. It doesn't have to be, which is why I'm not arguing with your placement, but I just don't agree with it because of the Armored Squad placements.

I'm not counting them yet. I'm ignoring the movies as of now and may change the levels to prioritize around it later. I'm just sticking to the series only.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, if you're saying that alternate manga events are possible, what makes alternate movie events any less valid?

Because there is no need for alternative movie events.

Likewise, there is no need for alternate manga events. M5 referred directly to the Namek Arc. Why should we assume that it happened differently, when nothing of that nature is stated or implied at all?

Alternative manga/anime events are necessary for, say, M4 to happen, not to mention for all movies to happen together.

[Kamiccolo9]

Nothing wrong so far. Assuming Gohan wasn't training, I don't think he needs to be buffed either.

@Kamiccolo: But Goku had two years to train and is implied to have improved a lot (effortlessly handles ng Trunks, making Trunks fanboy over him, dispatching a stronger Freeza and Cold in the other dimension).

Mecha Freeza and Cold together IMO can beat Namek Goku, but can't do much to Yardrat Goku.

Well, I personally don't have Freeza being all that much stronger. 135 million, maybe. With Trunks equal to Namek Goku, and Goku being at around 170-180 million. But that's just how I see it, and I'm a minimalist with my levels. There's nothing really wrong with them being stronger.

@DBZGTKOSDH
Unless the movies specifically reference manga events, I don't connect them to the manga. So no issue there. And I've already said that I don't think the movies are connected (unless specifically stated otherwise-the Broly movies, the Cooler movies).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Unless the movies specifically reference manga events, I don't connect them to the manga. So no issue there. And I've already said that I don't think the movies are connected (unless specifically stated otherwise-the Broly movies, the Cooler movies).

But still, M12 connects them all...