Introducing the younger generation to DB

[Ajay]

I recognize that many humans have done inhuman things to each other, but even after watching a movie or reading a book about it, I've never felt guilt since I never did those things. I don't feel guilty for my race, my gender, or species.

Me neither but this is one case where gaming is actually the on medium where this is truly possible. You're in control of the character, these are your decisions

Spoiler:

and you will be judged for them. Heavily, in great depth and to the point where you'll either feel guitly or sit and think about the criticisms of violence in games.

I find long form storytelling that TV give us allows for a greater emotional connection and impact which is why Kuririn's first death, Goku's victory at the Tenkaichi Budokai, or Wesley's final scene in the series finale of Angel get to me

I'm 100% with you on this one. Certainly there are lengthy games that do just as good a job but they're a rarity and don't spend near the amount of the time a TV show can on developing characters.

[ABED]

When I'm playing a game, or watching Dragon Ball, I'm looking for fun, not a message. If other people want it, fine, it's just not for me.

[Ringworm128]

THIS! A show doesn't have to be some Christopher Nolan Evangelion artsy fartsython to be good. DB has a story that flows fairly well, characters that are enjoyable and is just fun all around. There's a reason it's still going after almost 30 years.

[ABED]

You think "artsy fartsy" and your example is Nolan?

[Ajay]

You think "artsy fartsy" and your example is Nolan?

That's so needlessly antagonistic. You know exactly what he meant - he used a example of a director who is considered by many known for making relatively intelligent mainstream films.

He doesn't need to post about Terrence Malick or Michael Haneke to get his point across. He's just implying that Dragonball is straight up fun, it doesn't require any real thought to watch.

[Ringworm128]

I wouldn't say Nolan is "artsy fartsy" but he does have reputation for making more dark, over serious movies. Not saying that's a bad thing.

[Hades]

It's just show/telling a fun story. And it does a pretty good job of that.

The problem is that there's a lot of frankly disturbing connotations in Dragonball. Such as Master Roshi's sexual harrassment being considered acceptable (never faces any consequences), horrific traumatic experiences being handwaved away as making someone stronger (I would love it if Gohan was depicted as being as insane as Captain Walker after the Saiyan saga) while the perpetrator of this trauma is somehow turned into a good person due to inflicting this abuse, genocidal monsters like Vegeta suffering no consequences for what they do (He's a karma houdini as far as i'm concerned).

[Big Momma]

like Vegeta suffering no consequences for what they do (He's a karma houdini as far as i'm concerned).

I wouldn't go that far. He was served justice when Goku nearly killed him in their first fight...then again when he died at the hands of Freeza, the man who he had worked for all those years. His line of work and life choices put him in that situation, as well as his selfishness (Krillin and Gohan could have made their wish, had Vegeta not interrupted them). On top of that, his dignity suffered as, no matter how hard he tried, he could never surpass Goku...the supposed "Low-Class Warrior". His evil heart and pride caused him to live an extremely bitter and painful life, despite being on the good side. He wasn't fully redeemed until his sacrifice against Buu, IMO.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's just show/telling a fun story. And it does a pretty good job of that.

The problem is that there's a lot of frankly disturbing connotations in Dragonball. Such as Master Roshi's sexual harrassment being considered acceptable (never faces any consequences), horrific traumatic experiences being handwaved away as making someone stronger (I would love it if Gohan was depicted as being as insane as Captain Walker after the Saiyan saga) while the perpetrator of this trauma is somehow turned into a good person due to inflicting this abuse, genocidal monsters like Vegeta suffering no consequences for what they do (He's a karma houdini as far as i'm concerned).

It is a kids show. Roshi's behavior is meant to be funny, and it is, and he never gets away with it. He's just the funny old man. Gohan becoming insane wouldn't fit the story at all. Vegeta becoming better fits in with the theme of the bad guys getting redemption.

Honestly, what you're talking about isn't Dragonball. You seem to want some kind of realistic fighting manga that deals with the consequences of every single action and delves into the psyche of each character, and Dragonball doesn't do that. And I doubt that most of the 8-12 target audience wants that either. They want to see cool fights.

[Hades]

It is a kids show.

Doesn't mean it can't have disturbing connotations. Or does that mean racism in Golden Age comic books/cartoons can't be discussed?

Roshi's behavior is meant to be funny, and it is, and he never gets away with it.

Er, when is he branded Persona Non Grata for his sexual harassment of Bulma? Why isn't he confronted by Goku et al. for his behaviour?

He's just the funny old man.

People said the same thing about Jimmy Savile in the UK.

Gohan becoming insane wouldn't fit the story at all.

The Batman cartoons often discussed insanity.

Vegeta becoming better fits in with the theme of the bad guys getting redemption.

It doesn't show that in a convincing manner. It would be like having an expy for Andrei Chikatilo suddenly becoming a good guy on Law & Order.

Honestly, what you're talking about isn't Dragonball. You seem to want some kind of realistic fighting manga that deals with the consequences of every single action and delves into the psyche of each character, and Dragonball doesn't do that. And I doubt that most of the 8-12 target audience wants that either. They want to see cool fights.

My style of fiction tends to be the sort that takes childish fantasies like dragonball, rips them to shreds and forces the audience to look at a world where (to paraphrase Yahtzee) the characters are forced to confront consequences in a cold, unfair and uncaring world of hatred, misery and death. That alone would be a better story than "There was a strong guy named goku, and then he got even stronger" ad nauseum.

[Kamiccolo9]

It is a kids show.

Doesn't mean it can't have disturbing connotations. Or does that mean racism in Golden Age comic books/cartoons can't be discussed?

But they wouldn't improve the show. Dragonball is meant to be entertaining, not deep and depressing. And you're seriously comparing moral norms from the 40's and 50's to modern culture?

Roshi's behavior is meant to be funny, and it is, and he never gets away with it.

Er, when is he branded Persona Non Grata for his sexual harassment of Bulma? Why isn't he confronted by Goku et al. for his behaviour?

Practically every time he tries something, he gets smacked away, or hit with a hammer, or shot, or something of that nature. And again, you're imposing cultural norms on other cultures. The dirty old man is present in numerous Japanese products.

He's just the funny old man.

People said the same thing about Jimmy Savile in the UK.

To my knowledge, Roshi didn't molest children.

Gohan becoming insane wouldn't fit the story at all.

The Batman cartoons often discussed insanity.

Dragonball isn't Batman.

Vegeta becoming better fits in with the theme of the bad guys getting redemption.

It doesn't show that in a convincing manner. It would be like having an expy for Andrei Chikatilo suddenly becoming a good guy on Law & Order.

It doesn't have to be convincing. Again, it's a show for 6-15 year olds. They aren't going to psychoanalyze every character and judge whether or not he's worthy to live. They want to see cool fights.

Honestly, what you're talking about isn't Dragonball. You seem to want some kind of realistic fighting manga that deals with the consequences of every single action and delves into the psyche of each character, and Dragonball doesn't do that. And I doubt that most of the 8-12 target audience wants that either. They want to see cool fights.

My style of fiction tends to be the sort that takes childish fantasies like dragonball, rips them to shreds and forces the audience to look at a world where (to paraphrase Yahtzee) the characters are forced to confront consequences in a cold, unfair and uncaring world of hatred, misery and death. That alone would be a better story than "There was a strong guy named goku, and then he got even stronger" ad nauseum.

Your style of fiction isn't Dragonball. And seeing how wildly popular DB is, the majority of people are okay with the story, regardless of how simplistic it is.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

it's a show for 8-12 year olds.

It's a show for 6-15 years old boys.

[Kamiccolo9]

it's a show for 8-12 year olds.

It's a show for 6-15 years old boys.

Ok, I'll change it. Everything I said still applies.

[Dalesy]

Er, when is he branded Persona Non Grata for his sexual harassment of Bulma? Why isn't he confronted by Goku et al. for his behaviour?

Because it's shonen! Roshi doesn't need to be branded Persona Non Grata, because he gets branded by the backside of a frying pan, repeatedly. It's the typical "old man gets out of line, gets hit with heavy object" comedy cliche. It's not meant as a look the psychological repercussions of sexual harassment, it's meant as a gag. If you can't get past that, then I have no idea why you watch Dragon Ball.

My style of fiction tends to be the sort that takes childish fantasies like dragonball, rips them to shreds and forces the audience to look at a world where (to paraphrase Yahtzee) the characters are forced to confront consequences in a cold, unfair and uncaring world of hatred, misery and death. That alone would be a better story than "There was a strong guy named goku, and then he got even stronger" ad nauseum.

This reminds me of an article I read about heroes in modern cinema. Back in the old days, the protagonists that appeared in film and in television were pretty much infallible in terms of doing the right thing, and having a good moral compass (of course, this is relative to that time period's norms). Now, more and more, you see films about protagonists who have no idea what they're doing, have shaky morals, and often come to find out that they're fighting for nothing. While it certainly makes for a good look at our own psychology, making the hero an uncertain, sometimes incapable person is depressingly realist.

Goku is a hero of old, doing the right thing when it needs to be done, always being helpful, and keeping his heart pure. He may be a crass mountain child, but that's his upbringing, it can't be helped. If what you're suggesting is that Dragon Ball would be a better if Goku were an insecure, uncertain person, then I would say you don't understand the concept of children's television/comics. The target market is CHILDREN. They should be given something to look up to, someone to idolize. They don't need to be repeatedly beaten over the head with the failures of mankind.

[Hellspawn28]

I thought Dragon Ball was market for the ages of 4 - 13?

[Big Momma]

People said the same thing about Jimmy Savile in the UK.

The Batman cartoons often discussed insanity.

It doesn't show that in a convincing manner. It would be like having an expy for Andrei Chikatilo suddenly becoming a good guy on Law & Order.

Are you legitimately trying to compare Dragon Ball to Bruce Timm's Batman, Law & Order, and an actual sex scandal?

My style of fiction tends to be the sort that takes childish fantasies like dragonball, rips them to shreds and forces the audience to look at a world where (to paraphrase Yahtzee) the characters are forced to confront consequences in a cold, unfair and uncaring world of hatred, misery and death. That alone would be a better story than "There was a strong guy named goku, and then he got even stronger" ad nauseum.

As good as that "style of fiction" can be, it doesn't, and shouldn't, apply to all fiction. That's not what Dragon Ball is nor ever claimed to be. As stated before, the series is a simple Battle Shounen with big fights, talking animals, and poop jokes. I, for the life of me, can't understand why you would look in this story for those themes that you described. "Complex" and "Real" does not equal "better". A simple story can be just as enjoyable and good as one that goes deeper. And "There was a strong guy named goku, and then he got even stronger", is a gross generalization that can be applied to any plot, no matter how deep it was. ("There was a depressed boy named Shinji, his mom was a robot.")

Look, I can enjoy/understand/appreciate a Wes Anderson or Coen Brothers film as much, if not more, than the next guy. That doesn't mean I can't also sit down and enjoy something like Scary Movie, or anything by the Farrelly Brothers. You don't judge those movies by the same standards because they are made with different goals in mind. To sit down and judge Dragon Ball the same way you would judge something by Frank Miller is wrong, and just asking for disappointment.

[ABED]

Real doesn't equal damaged, morally grey, etc. Another thing you miss is Dragon Ball is a world of magic and beings that can destroy the universe or crash through mountains and not die. Different metaphysics means different standard of value. I would much rather watch or read a superhero story than deconstruct the mythology. I don't think Superman is somehow less real because he's not as sad and depressed as characters in Watchmen. That book says more about the author than superheroes.

Toriyama never said Piccolo was a good person because of "abuse" (it's not abuse). How was what Piccolo did unfair to Gohan? Why would it cause a psychotic episode for Gohan? What sort of episode are we talking about? Him attacking people? If your style of fiction isn't what Dragon Ball is, then why are you a fan?

Ajaylikesgaming, that wasn't me being antagonistic, and yes, Malick would've been a far better example of "artsy fartsy" than Nolan. Nolan does big spectacle films with some thought put into them, he doesn't do obscure arthouse films.

[Hades]

*sigh*

I used to be a lukewarm fan of DB/Z. Now I just watch the Abridged series when they come out, and read DB Multiverse when the next pages are updated. However, I've always been more interested in stories with significant depth and emphasis on characters (like FMA and Myst and Baldur's Gate) rather than just blind action. Now, to address the criticisms mentioned:

On the comparisons, Batman, like Dragonball has been a popular cartoon, yet the former dealt with more mature subjects like crime and justice. Vegeta did come from a society where Andrei Chikatilo was the norm, and he settles down on Earth with the girlfriend of one of his victims, which does make him a Karma Houdini, which isn't helped by poor writing. Finally, the Roshi/Savile comparison is appropriate to an extent, as in both cases, people just ignored what they actually did, with very similar rationale. I suppose it's just the savile scandal that has made me feel creeped out by Roshi. As for the comparison to racial attitudes in 40s/50s cartoons, Mr Popo does resemble racist caricatures, so there's that. However, my point was that just because it's a cartoon, that doesn't mean it can't be critiqued.

[ABED]

*sigh*

I used to be a lukewarm fan of DB/Z. Now I just watch the Abridged series when they come out, and read DB Multiverse when the next pages are updated. However, I've always been more interested in stories with significant depth and emphasis on characters (like FMA and Myst and Baldur's Gate) rather than just blind action. Now, to address the criticisms mentioned:

On the comparisons, Batman, like Dragonball has been a popular cartoon, yet the former dealt with more mature subjects like crime and justice. Vegeta did come from a society where Andrei Chikatilo was the norm, and he settles down on Earth with the girlfriend of one of his victims, which does make him a Karma Houdini, which isn't helped by poor writing. Finally, the Roshi/Savile comparison is appropriate to an extent, as in both cases, people just ignored what they actually did, with very similar rationale. I suppose it's just the savile scandal that has made me feel creeped out by Roshi. As for the comparison to racial attitudes in 40s/50s cartoons, Mr Popo does resemble racist caricatures, so there's that. However, my point was that just because it's a cartoon, that doesn't mean it can't be critiqued.

Not every show or character should be Batman! One of the reasons Batman is interesting is because he's unique. Hell, even the Batman animated series only went so far. When Timm did Superman, he didn't make Superman like Batman. There's room for plenty of types of stories. Simple good vs evil has its place.

Being depressing doesn't equal depth. It's fine to critique stuff but not everything has to be dark and depressing and "real".

The abridged series ISN'T Dragon ball.

[Big Momma]

On the comparisons, Batman, like Dragonball has been a popular cartoon, yet the former dealt with more mature subjects like crime and justice. Vegeta did come from a society where Andrei Chikatilo was the norm, and he settles down on Earth with the girlfriend of one of his victims, which does make him a Karma Houdini, which isn't helped by poor writing. Finally, the Roshi/Savile comparison is appropriate to an extent, as in both cases, people just ignored what they actually did, with very similar rationale. I suppose it's just the savile scandal that has made me feel creeped out by Roshi. As for the comparison to racial attitudes in 40s/50s cartoons, Mr Popo does resemble racist caricatures, so there's that. However, my point was that just because it's a cartoon, that doesn't mean it can't be critiqued.

Batman was definitely known and praised for its more mature themes, but that's what they were going for. When the show was made, they wanted it to have that darker feel. And again, you can't compare Vegeta and the Saiyans to the acts of Chikatilo, a real-life murderer...even though they may both technically be murderers. Swiper from Dora The Explorer and Jesse James are both thieves, but you don't see people lobbying for the former to get an in-show punishment...or at least not one similar to real life.

Roshi was hardly ever ignored, though. He often got smacked, hit, or hurt when he tried to be perverse.

A cartoon can definitely be critiqued, but they shouldn't all be critiqued with the same standards. Some Cartoons can be critiqued like a live-action work, some live-action works can be critiqued like a cartoon...Heck, I'm personally against categorizing them like that anyway. Just because something is animated, doesn't mean it shouldn't be lumped in with things that aren't, and vice-versa. There are various standards that things set out to reach, and should be judged by. I'm not gonna read the Oreimo light novels in the same way that I would read The Fountainhead or Brave New World. Or judge Archie's Sonic comics in the same vein as Watchmen.