Why did Toriyama...

[TheMightyOzaru]

Make Gohan a SSJ against Dabura as opposed to a SSJ2? It would have made the fight all the more entertaining.

[Kamiccolo9]

You know what this topic is gonna cause, right?

I'm gonna say that he didn't feel like drawing sparks.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You know what this topic is gonna cause, right?

I'm gonna say that he didn't feel like drawing sparks.

I suppose I should put a rule here, GOHAN WAS A SSJ, IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, DON'T BOTHER CONVERSING ON THIS THREAD. There .

[Kaboom]

I don't know if it's what Toriyama was going for, but it serves well to show a steady escalation of the powers at play and make Boo's debut more impactful.

Super Saiyan 2 is still the new hotness at this point in the story. It's the amazing and shiny new miracle transformation that shocks everyone with its power and can beat anything. By having Gohan NOT use it, it makes Goku and Vegeta look even better when they DO use it, which serves to emphasize how they're now stronger than Gohan. Which, in turn, paints Majin Boo as an even bigger threat than otherwise after he shows up and can even beat the new strongest Super Saiyan 2 guy easily.

So you've got a progressive increase in who's getting beaten, leading up to the reveal of the new big bad. You go from the guys who are weaker than Super Saiyans (Kuririn, Piccolo, and Kaioshin), to the guys who are as strong as Super Saiyans (Gohan and Dabra), then to the guys who are even stronger than Super Saiyans (Goku and Vegeta), and then along comes this guy who's even stronger than stronger than Super Saiyans (Majin Boo).

[Insertclevername]

So I guess it was a compromise between logic and a story telling technique.

[TheGmGoken]

Plot reasons. By having Gohan not use his strongest form it makes it seem like Goku and Vegeta(SSJ2) are a big deal but once Majin Boo turn out much stronger than SSJ2 it creates desperation and seems like no one can when. Until ya know SSj3 shows up.

[hleV]

If Gohan was SS2, then Vegeta's uncomfort with Gohan's performance against Dabra and desire to jump in would reveal that Vegeta has SS2 as well.

[sintzu]

it's showed that whene gohan tries to go ssj2 he can't unless he is very angry

from chapter 460 :

goku : get angry gohan remember how you fought with cell and used all of your power ?

gohan whene trying to go ssj2 but can't : i'm angry but not like the last time

[sintzu]

If Gohan was SS2, then Vegeta's uncomfort with Gohan's performance against Dabra and desire to jump in would reveal that Vegeta has SS2 as well.

it's hinted in the manga that vegeta reached ssj2 in between the cell-buu arcs and confermd in the daizenshuu

[hleV]

He's not trying to go SS2, he's trying to get power from anger.

And in the manga it's not obvious that Vegeta has SS2 before he shows it Goku. That's why Goku was surprised.

[sintzu]

And in the manga it's not obvious that Vegeta has SS2 before he shows it Goku. That's why Goku was surprised.

from the hints in the manga it kind of is obvious and goku not knowing dosen't mean he didn't have it

[hleV]

And what does that have to do with anything? If Gohan would've been SS2 against Dabra and Vegeta wanted to interfere, it would've killed the surprise of Vegeta having SS2.

[sintzu]

And what does that have to do with anything? If Gohan would've been SS2 against Dabra and Vegeta wanted to interfere, it would've killed the surprise of Vegeta having SS2.

never mind i misunderstodd your first post

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Well let's see here, Gohan would have to have been SSJ2 if he was going up against an opponent in Cell's league. It's established that Gohan did not train whatsoever during the 7 years of piece and got weaker.
You honestly think a weaker Gohan would neglect his SSJ2 transformation against a threat as strong or stronger than Cell...I don't buy it. He just got done using SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

[Undertaker]

Well let's see here, Gohan would have to have been SSJ2 if he was going up against an opponent in Cell's league. It's established that Gohan did not train whatsoever during the 7 years of piece and got weaker.
You honestly think a weaker Gohan would neglect his SSJ2 transformation against a threat as strong or stronger than Cell...I don't buy it. He just got done using SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

He was a SSJ. That's a Manga fact. Dabura can easily be Suppressed Cell's level

Goku even thought he can take him out in just SSJ

Dabura anyway considered Gohan trash something whichhe would not say if Gohan was a SSJ2

Gohan was designed as a SSJ

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Well let's see here, Gohan would have to have been SSJ2 if he was going up against an opponent in Cell's league. It's established that Gohan did not train whatsoever during the 7 years of piece and got weaker.
You honestly think a weaker Gohan would neglect his SSJ2 transformation against a threat as strong or stronger than Cell...I don't buy it. He just got done using SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

He was a SSJ. That's a Manga fact. Dabura can easily be Suppressed Cell's level

Goku even thought he can take him out in just SSJ

Dabura anyway considered Gohan trash something whichhe would not say if Gohan was a SSJ2

Gohan was designed as a SSJ

Manga states that Dabura was probably as strong as Cell, then said to be stronger than they thought. It never said Suppressed Cell and that's just a theory that some people make out due to Gohan looking SSJ1.

We don't know how powerful Goku in SSJ has even gotten over the seven years. He possibly could have gotten it in Perfect Cell's league. Not saying this is absolute, but it's possible. We know he was still weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan because it wasn't until Goku went SSJ2 is when Vegeta said he surpassed him.

Dabura considered Gohan trash yes, but that doesn't mean Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Gohan got weaker, we have to remember that fact.
Like I said, it doesn't matter if Cell is suppressed or not. SSJ2 was required to go up against him as MSSJ Gohan was absolutely nothing compared to him, and Vegeta made no power difference statement from when he went SSJ2 at the tenkaichi budokai.

[Fionordequester]

Alright Oozaru, I don't know why you moved the debate here, and I have to go to bed soon, so let me just ask you...

Why in the world would Goku be referring to Suppressed Cell, the absolute weakest state of Cell, when, to copy and paste what I said in the last thread...

I would think Goku would know better than to think of Cell as him in his suppressed state, considering that his whole entire battle plan consisted of him relying on Gohan to go SSJ2 when pushed. At absolutely NO POINT in that entire tournament arc was Goku under any illusions that Cell was giving his all in his fight against him, saying things like "I dunno about Cell, but I was giving it everything I had".

So at the very least, Goku definitely knew Perfect Cell's Full Power as well as he did his Suppressed State, if not perhaps his Super Perfect State, and he DEFINITELY does not think of Cell in terms of him in his Suppressed State, i.e., the one he almost killed with a Kamehameha.

[hleV]

He didn't refer to any state of Cell. Just Cell in general. So a wide range of power rather than something specific. That's the best way to look at it.

[Fionordequester]

With all due respect, that's not how most people think in terms of comparing anyone with anybody else. Whenever you compare anybody to anybody, you typically assume that you're talking about those people as though they're fighting at 100%, at their best. This isn't even speculation, I literally conducted a survey of around fourty forum goers with...

supposing that, hypothetically, Piccolo knew what 100% of Freeza's power was like (unlike my last example), and knew exactly what it was. Suppose the three years pass after Goku defeats Freeza, as normal. Sometime during their preparation for the Androids, Piccolo says to someone "I've become as strong as Freeza now!". Now, is it more likely that he means...

A) Freeza at around a third of his strength?

B) Freeza at 50% of his strength?

C) Freeza at 100% of his power?

...was ridiculous (not that YOU GUYS are ridiculous, only your statement there)...but instead of flat out saying so was absurd, I took the time to essentially conduct a survey asking as many forum members as I could this very question. The results?

I'd say C. Concerning the "now" part of that line, it sounds more like he's referring to himself than Freeza's current state and level of power at the time. If he meant that he's as strong as Freeza currently is, I imagine the line would be a bit more specific like "I'm as strong as Freeza is right now."

Unless Cyborg Freeza's power on Earth was equivalent to his 100% on Namek, I'd base what Piccolo would be saying on the last time he was in-battle with Freeza, which would be at his 50% power [so Option B].

Even though this isn't my forte, I'll give it a try. I would say C), because it would make the most sense without clarification, flows better dialogue-wise, and would also be the most impressive when gauging his power against new enemies.

With the way you worded your question I'm going to have to guess C

Whichever choice is First Form Freeza because Freeza at full power is not how Freeza is all the time.

I'd say B. Saying your as strong as someone doesn't have to mean their 100%. Just at their level of strength

Neither. It would most likely mean that he is equally as strong as Freeza's 100% power before he became Mecha-Freeza. So, he would still actually be weaker. [So basically, C, if I had worded the question better. I reworded the question slightly to avoid this answer in the future]

I'd say C. If Piccolo is comparing himself to Freeza he's obviously talking about Freeza at his best. If he meant a third or half Freeza's power, he would say so. He wouldn't say "I'm as strong as Freeza!" if he didn't mean he was as strong as Freeza. He would say "I'm a third as strong as Freeza!" or "I'm half as strong as Freeza!" A third of Freeza's power is not as strong as Freeza. Fifty percent of Freeza's power isn't as strong as Freeza, either. "As strong as Freeza" means "one hundred percent of Freeza's power." It's as simple as that. Why would one boast that they're as strong as Freeza when they're not as strong as Freeza? I apologize if I didn't articulate my response that well.

Um, C maybe? I don't know why I'm being asked this. I don't really care much about power levels and am a mostly casually forum goer.

Most likely either B) or C).[How about we count this as 1 point for both answers, just for neatnesses sake?]

What is this DBZ math? Interesting question, I would have to go with C. Freeza at his full power since you said Piccolo was aware of it, no reason three years later he'd refer to his inferior form.

Hmm good question...how come ya asked me?!?!!?

Well, I'd assume he meant C,Freeza at 100% of his power, because at that point everyone would know, or get pretty close to knowing, what Freezas true power level was...even if Piccolo didn't tell them...hypothetically.

Gohan fought Freeza when he was almost...or maybe at his true power (I can't remember) and so did Goku..so one of them were bound to tell the others how strong he truly was... But if there was no Mecha Freeza...then doesnt Goku die?

Um, I would assume C. Because if someone told me that they had surpassed another person, I would assume its the latter person at their highest known strength.

C.

Freeza 50% because piccolo isn't as strong as the super saiyans who are stronger as freeza [So Option B]

I'd say 100% myself.

You're going for the comparing Dabura to Cell thing, right? Yeah, I think Gohan had to be SSJ2, and Toriyama just forgot the lightning (the whole situation doesn't make sense to be otherwise).

I don't know. [I'll count this as a point to both Option A and Option B]

Yeah, if it assumed than yes, C!

Maybe... B, I guess.

Piccolo is ambitious, so for me: 100% power

C) Piccolo would mean that he is as strong as Freeza at 100% of his power.

I would say that if Piccolo felt Freeza's power at 100% and he made the statement as long as it isn't later contradicted I would say Piccolo= 100% Freeza.

** off. I took time out of my busy And fulfilling life to read this. You're a waste of my time.[I dunno, I thought it was an amusing answer

He felt Freeza's 70% power in Namek because after the Genki Dama Freeza used his 70% power. And he probably was also told that Freeza was even stronger than what he felt in Namek.

So if he said "I'm as strong as Freeza" he would mean at least his 70% power and almost certainly more than that.

Since he would have to guess what Freeza's full power had been, if he said that "I'm as strong as Freeza's full power", he could be underestimating or overestimating, so he could actually be stronger or weaker, but not by a huge margin.

Well this is supposing he DIDN'T have to guess what 100% was. But basically, you're saying that Piccolo would be comparing himself to AT LEAST the strongest amount of power that he knew that Freeza was putting out?

Yes, at the very least. It wouldn't make sense for him, as a proud warrior, to state that he was as strong as Freeza if he hadn't at least matched the maximum power he had felt from Freeza.

Hmm, interesting - perhaps I've misunderstood your question, but given that the hypothetical terms you outline include the notion that Piccolo is aware of 100% of Freeza's power then that would seem to be what he is referring to.

I'll take C - if "Piccolo knew what 100% of Freeza's power was like" must be true...

D) Why are you asking me this question? [ ]

Well, if Piccolo knew Freeza's power and what he looked like at 100%, he would not say that. He'd tell someone the truth and pretty much fight anyways, like the fight with Nappa.

But, from your 3 choices I'd say; A) Freeza at around a third of his strength? When Freeza met Piccolo, he was already using close to a third of his power. Piccolo could evenly fight Freeza then, but it's not in his character to lie about battle power. Interesting question, I hope my reply made sense.

Thanks,
Kienzan88gt

I don't really follow In-Universe discussions that much, but just based on what you said, I'd have to say that, if he said that, he would mean 100% of his power unless the "now" you put at the end has significance and specifically refers to how much power he has at that moment, which would then refer to whatever point in time he's talking about. But, if this is an actual quote, that would be very much dependent on the nuances of the original Japanese.

I would say he's talking about 100% Freeza since he knows of that particular strength. I couldn't think of a reason why he would mean anything else.

So, C.

Well, if he knew what Freeza's 100 percent power is, then I would reckon he is talking about 100 percent.

Personally, I don't really do battle power discussions and I have no idea why you're contacting me about it. Wouldn't it be better to ask someone like Kaboom about it?

Hm..this is a tricky one. And since there is no Mecha Freza, then 100% of Freeza's power would be his full powered form, which is actually his strongest one. In this case, it should be C.

Hypothetically, I feel it'd come down to one of two possibilities. Either C) or an option that you didn't mention, which would be "As strong as everyone else knows Freeza was". Personally, I'd consider C to be the most viable.

I'm big into always assume full power. If someone says Cell or Freeza or whoever, your initial point of view should automatically the maximum the fighter showed.

And then there were four dudes I interviewed outside of Kanzenshuu, using basically the same hypothetical except replaced with generic terms like "the Villains 33%, 50%, or 100%, and "a sidekick" saying he was as strong as the villain this time"...

Probably the 100%

Key word is after so 100\

Probably the final state.

Indeed I think the 100

The score tally?

Option A: 2

Option B: 5

Option C: 32

So basically, people BY FAR picked Option C by a landslide, that Piccolo would have been referring to Freeza's 100% power. And even though what WE'RE discussing is what Goku meant by Cell's 100% power, can we at least CONSIDER that it was fairly LIKELY that Mr. Toriyama intention behind Goku's line was to tell us that Dabura was around as strong as Full Power Perfect Cell or stronger, ESPECIALLY since Goku explicitly states afterwards "wow, this guy is a lot tougher than I thought!"?[/quote]

And this time, I'm not going to accept that somehow, "a hero comparing a villain to another villain is quite different from a hero comparing himself to a villain" until you explain to me WHY they're so different. I was generous last time, but considering how long this has gone on, this is something I'd really like to get out of the way. And if you manage to explain this clearly enough...

Is it really so big of a leap to consider that Zephyrs might be right about this? That is...

Gohan was a weakened/false/half SSj2, meaning the sparks didn't show up, he wasn't nearly at the level of a true SSj2, and folks in this tier could be taken care of my a well-combat-suited SSj1. That way we can both accept the Daiz statement that he was (a sort of) SSj2, and we can also accept that true, fully-attained SSj2's do in fact have the sparks.

Heck, the "Why doesn't SSJ1 Kid Gohan's Hair Go Up?" thread is a perfect example of the validity of this idea, because to quote Marco Polo...

Before the name "SSJ2" was invented, the "SSJ2" form was just meant to be Gohan's true SSJ form, with all his power unleashed. The form shown in the first post is just a repressed form caused by Gohan's lack of fighting spirit and pacific nature.

So I ask you, what's more believable? That Gohan's form against Dabura was basically a weird sort of "weakened SSJ2 form", or "SSJ1" despite the myriad of assumptions you have to make in order to make this theory work (Goku's line about Dabura's strength shouldn't be taken literally, Goku was referring to the weakest possible Perfect Cell he could have thought of despite never once thinking of him in those terms during the Cell Games arc, that Gohan was somehow angrier at the tournament than he was in facing the likes of Dabura and Majin Buu, that Akira Toriyama would actually be that subtle in his story telling when he's NEVER been that way before, that the Daizenshuu 7 guide about Gohan being SSJ2 was simply a typo)?

Please remember that your entire argument is based off of one artistic cue from an author who, as several people pointed out in the last thread, was starting to change the way he was drawing Gohan's SSJ forms at around the EXACT period that the Gohan vs. Dabura fight took place in. Just how do we know that Akira wasn't simply going back and forth on how he wanted to draw SSJ2 Gohan anyways?

[hleV]

The survey was with a different question. Also Goku didn't fight neither full-power Perfect nor Super Perfect Cell. That may be a factor.

I'd honestly have no problem with Goku comparing Dabra to SPC. But that doesn't work.