Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:30 pm
Axiom wrote:Didn't SSJ Goku one shot Aka while SSJ Gotenks attack was brushed off?
Gotenks never lost. He didn't win because he was fucking around.
Axiom wrote:No matter what, we know that Pre Gotenks isn't on Goku's level
How do we know? Goku expected SS Gotenks to be around his level, and it was never contradicted.
Axiom wrote:post Gotenks isn't explicitly stated to be stronger
Piccolo said that he had gotten much stronger.
Axiom wrote:furthermore, SSJ3 Goku losing to Beers was a huge enough surprise that no one was thought to be able to beat him.
Vegeta had met Beers in the past, and had heard rumors of his power. When he heard that he defeated SS3 Goku with 2 blows, he realized that the rumors were true, and believed that no one would be strong enough to defeat him because he was the Hakaishin (God of Destruction).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Axiom
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by Axiom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:35 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Axiom wrote:Didn't SSJ Goku one shot Aka while SSJ Gotenks attack was brushed off?
Gotenks never lost. He didn't win because he was fucking around.
Axiom wrote:No matter what, we know that Pre Gotenks isn't on Goku's level
How do we know? Goku expected SS Gotenks to be around his level, and it was never contradicted.
Axiom wrote:post Gotenks isn't explicitly stated to be stronger
Piccolo said that he had gotten much stronger.
Axiom wrote:furthermore, SSJ3 Goku losing to Beers was a huge enough surprise that no one was thought to be able to beat him.
Vegeta had met Beers in the past, and had heard rumors of his power. When he heard that he defeated SS3 Goku with 2 blows, he realized that the rumors were true, and believed that no one would be strong enough to defeat him because he was the Hakaishin (God of Destruction).
Dicking around? Goku 1 shot him as a SSJ, he brushed off Gotenks hit. I don't know what else there is to it.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:40 pm
Gotenks was never serious in any of his fights.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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PerfectFreeza
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by PerfectFreeza » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:43 pm
Gotenks wasn't serious, Goku was.
He was using normal attacks, yet calling them stupid names.He does that, when he toys around.
And Aka was getting beaten around.
BIG difference.
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Axiom
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by Axiom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:01 pm
Gotenks also failed to hurt him, even with a SSJ level punch. Seriously, if Gotenks is Xtimes stronger than Goku, even his SSJ level attacks should be stronger. Aka essentially brushed his attacks off and continued with business as usual.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:04 pm
Gotenks is hinted to be a Super Saiyan Full Power in the manga, so he could be holding back.
Gotenks just can't be weaker than Goku. Goku believed that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to defeat Innocent Boo. Even if he was wrong, he can't be that wrong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Axiom
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by Axiom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:06 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gotenks is hinted to be a Super Saiyan Full Power in the manga, so he could be holding back.
Gotenks just can't be weaker than Goku. Goku believed that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to defeat Innocent Boo. Even if he was wrong, he can't be that wrong.
Apparently he was.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:07 pm
No, he wasn't. The manga never implied that Gotenks was weaker than Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:08 pm
Axiom wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gotenks is hinted to be a Super Saiyan Full Power in the manga, so he could be holding back.
Gotenks just can't be weaker than Goku. Goku believed that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to defeat Innocent Boo. Even if he was wrong, he can't be that wrong.
Apparently he was.
Gotenks would have to be around an eighth of how powerful Goku expected he would be. There is no way he is that far off.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:14 pm
And let's not forget these:
Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
SS3 Gotenks >= Evil Boo >>> SS3 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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OWmyDragonBallz
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by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:30 pm
Kaboom wrote:Undertaker wrote:SSJ3 Goku is not leagues ahead of Fat Boo and Goku was sure the kids would beat Boo and nothing contradicts it as he tells Piccolo to not use the Rosat
And nothing confirmed it either, like I said. A prediction is only a prediction until it's proven true. My approach works fine and doesn't directly contradict anything.
The Daiz says Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta
He says no such thing. He died a long time before Gotenks or any Super Saiyan 2s were ever around. If you meant the "Daizenshuu," then I'm sure that if one of the books did say such a thing, I would know about it.
Undertaker wrote:Axiom wrote:As I said before, if Gotenks is stronger, it's not by much.
He is leagues ahead of Goku
I don't get it... why do you create threads like this, asking about other people's opinions, if all you're going to do is keep telling people they're wrong?
He's pakl123456 from YouTube. He will deny this due to how many enemies he has on all the forums.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:31 pm
I have SSJ3 Gotenks 2 to 4 times stronger than SSJ3 Kakarotto.
Piccolo is a lot lot more surprised with SSJ3 Goku powers than SSJ Gotenks powers. Piccolo is pretty sure that SSJ3 Goku could have defeated Fat Boo but Kakarotto prefer to lie and Piccolo is quite surprised.
If Goku were sure about Gotenks powers, He would not say that ¨they might need the RoSaT later¨. Goku says another warrior may appear and is stronger than me? Another lie to calm down Majin Boo.
Kakarotto is a total lier about his powers because it was not his responsibility defeating Fat Boo.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:34 pm
MDSTSSJ wrote:If Goku were sure about Gotenks powers, He would not say that ¨they might need the RoSaT later¨.
Exactly the opposite, Goku believes that the RoSaT isn't necessary. By later, he means that they should use it in case a new, more powerful enemy was to appear.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Kaboom
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by Kaboom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:36 pm
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:He's pakl123456 from YouTube. He will deny this due to how many enemies he has on all the forums.
People's aliases and activity elsewhere on the internet don't really matter
(unless they're rebelliously ban-dodging, which is usually a big no-no). What matters is how they behave here.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:55 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:MDSTSSJ wrote:If Goku were sure about Gotenks powers, He would not say that ¨they might need the RoSaT later¨.
Exactly the opposite, Goku believes that the RoSaT isn't necessary. By later, he means that they should use it in case a new, more powerful enemy was to appear.
Mm no, I don´t think so because he only refers to Majin Boo. How Kakarotto will think of a new enemy besides Majin Buu, if they have not defeated that monster yet?
No again because none of them know the true story of Majin Buu. Nobody knows ( besides Kaioshin ) that Majin Buu is created through the absorption of two Kaioshin. Nobody knows that Majin Boo is able another transformation. Nobody knows who is the real Majin Boo. Ect, etc.....
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Bando
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by Bando » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:22 pm
It seems kind of obvious from a story perspective. Super Saiyan Gotenks was going to defeat Fat Boo, but unfortunately Boo transformed into a much more powerful being before they could battle.
It's a classic example of victory in the good guys' grasp, only for the tables to turn and the situation to be completely reversed.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:41 pm
We have nothing really specific. All we know is that he was said to be able to beat Fat Buu before going into the ROSAT, who is above any SS2. SS Gotenks, pre or post, doesn't have to be as strong as Goku, just stronger than Fatty. Pre should at least be three times stronger than SS Goku though, or else everything is just stupid.
I personally have him 4.2 times stronger before the ROSAT, 5.5 times stronger after. I generally try to be minimalist in the Buu Saga and so have Fat Buu nowhere near the SS3 tier (he's not even twice as strong as Majin Vegeta, just strong enough that SS2 Goku and Vegeta can't beat him together), cause Goku wasn't trying at all, and even at the "I'm not trying" level, where he was possibly suppressed, he was able to tank punches and casually slap away amplified attacks.
If only SS3 had a varying multiplier, or Gotenks got different multipliers... it would give me an excuse to make the Buu Saga less bloated, while keeping the important stuff, like Super Buu >>> SS3 Goku.
Last edited by
RandomGuy96 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:48 pm
MDSTSSJ wrote:Mm no, I don´t think so because he only refers to Majin Boo. How Kakarotto will think of a new enemy besides Majin Buu, if they have not defeated that monster yet?
No, Goku believes that SS Gotenks would be enough for Boo. Since new threats were attacking the Earth all the time (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Boo), he wanted Goten & Trunks not waste their days inside the RoSaT since they would be strong enough to kill Boo already. Instead, if a new thread stronger than Boo was to come after that, Goten & Trunks could use their days if they weren't strong enough to beat the new threat.
MDSTSSJ wrote:No again because none of them know the true story of Majin Buu. Nobody knows ( besides Kaioshin ) that Majin Buu is created through the absorption of two Kaioshin. Nobody knows that Majin Boo is able another transformation. Nobody knows who is the real Majin Boo. Ect, etc.....
You just proved exactly the opposite you wanted. Since Goku didn't know that Boo could get stronger, and he knew SS Gotenks would be enough, there was no point to waste their days in RoSaT.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Undertaker
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by Undertaker » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:50 pm
Kamiccolo9 wrote:The whole "sensing from Kaioshin's planet" is extremely inconsistent, and should not be used in any debate. SSJ3 Goku grabbed everyone's attention, while Gohan powering up wasn't felt by anyone except Buu. No one reacted when SSJ3 Gotenks emerged from the ROSAT. Inconsistent.
And when did Goku tell them not to use the ROSAT?
It wasn't stated, it was guessed.
Gohan was not felt in order to build up a dramatic entrance
Why reactiong for Gotenks if They watched him over the crystal? You say it's inconsistent like they felt someone below SSJ3 tier which they never did, Kibito implies only SSJ3 tier and above can be felt
Kaboom: There is not a quote in the Manga when Goku says "wow Gohan you are stronger than me" I guess he is not huh? Goku already said SSJ Gotenks would beat Fat Boo, no one has to go and say "OMG You are much greater than Boo" Not every power statement requires a direct comparison. And Author shouldnt have to spell out and then respell out every little detail for a reader. You arent a baby, you should be able to put 1 statement from before together with the next.
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:56 pm
Undertaker wrote:Kamiccolo9 wrote:The whole "sensing from Kaioshin's planet" is extremely inconsistent, and should not be used in any debate. SSJ3 Goku grabbed everyone's attention, while Gohan powering up wasn't felt by anyone except Buu. No one reacted when SSJ3 Gotenks emerged from the ROSAT. Inconsistent.
And when did Goku tell them not to use the ROSAT?
It wasn't stated, it was guessed.
Gohan was not felt in order to build up a dramatic entrance
Why reactiong for Gotenks if They watched him over the crystal? You say it's inconsistent like they felt someone below SSJ3 tier which they never did, Kibito implies only SSJ3 tier and above can be felt
Gotenks power should have knocked everyone over just like Goku's did as soon as he emerged from the ROSAT.
"Dramatic entrance" is not a valid in-universe reason.
