Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
-
Fionordequester
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2879
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:33 pm
Post
by Fionordequester » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:41 am
hleV wrote:The survey was with different question. Also Goku didn't fight neither full-power Perfect nor Super Perfect Cell. That may be a factor.
And what was so fundamentally different about "a hero comparing a villain to a villain" as opposed to "a hero comparing himself to a villain", that the results of my survey would have been radically different?
Also, I don't think Goku was comparing Dabura to SPC either, but that still works with my theory since THAT form was the only one Goku wasn't directly there for.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
-
hleV
- Banned
- Posts: 3325
- Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm
- Location: Lithuania
Post
by hleV » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:43 am
The fact that when you're comparing yourself to someone, you got to do it right or you'll look like a fool. Not because of the comparison itself, but because you're not as strong as you said you are.
Goku doesn't try to give Dabra any credit. He just explains Kaioshin how Dabra would've been trouble 7 years ago, just like Cell was.
If Dabra was on suppressed Perfect Cell's level, you think Goku wouldn't have made that comparison? Or you think he would've specified the form, even though Kaioshin has no idea what Cell is to begin with?
-
Undertaker
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 479
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:53 pm
Post
by Undertaker » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:06 am
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Undertaker wrote:OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Well let's see here, Gohan would have to have been SSJ2 if he was going up against an opponent in Cell's league. It's established that Gohan did not train whatsoever during the 7 years of piece and got weaker.
You honestly think a weaker Gohan would neglect his SSJ2 transformation against a threat as strong or stronger than Cell...I don't buy it. He just got done using SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.
He was a SSJ. That's a Manga fact. Dabura can easily be Suppressed Cell's level
Goku even thought he can take him out in just SSJ
Dabura anyway considered Gohan trash something whichhe would not say if Gohan was a SSJ2
Gohan was designed as a SSJ
Manga states that Dabura was probably as strong as Cell, then said to be stronger than they thought. It never said Suppressed Cell and that's just a theory that some people make out due to Gohan looking SSJ1.
We don't know how powerful Goku in SSJ has even gotten over the seven years. He possibly could have gotten it in Perfect Cell's league. Not saying this is absolute, but it's possible. We know he was still weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan because it wasn't until Goku went SSJ2 is when Vegeta said he surpassed him.
Dabura considered Gohan trash yes, but that doesn't mean Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Gohan got weaker, we have to remember that fact.
Like I said, it doesn't matter if Cell is suppressed or not. SSJ2 was required to go up against him as MSSJ Gohan was absolutely nothing compared to him, and Vegeta made no power difference statement from when he went SSJ2 at the tenkaichi budokai.
Goku can talk about any level of Cell. He needed to compare Dabura to someone and the only strong enough was Cell. Goku also meant "Man if Dabura was there instead of Cell so he was also a danger" IMO
It's likely Goku is talking about the Cell he fought
Goku says he broke his limits after the Rosat so his SSJ state can't get so much stronger. SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Kid Gohan but the gap was not implied to be huge so obviously SSJ Goku is not considerably ahead of SSJ Kid Gohan. No SSJ except fusions can beat Perfect Cell. The Manga makes it clear
But Gohan was not a good match for Dabura as he says he is trash, Gohan got weaker but he is still compared to the other SSJ2s so Dabura being that strong makes no sense as he was far below Fat Boo who had to power up vs Vegeta
Gohan was shown using SSJ in the Manga. Dabura and Gohan never contributed any energy to Boo's shell like Goku and Vegeta did since they were not SSJ2 tier
-
OWmyDragonBallz
- Regular
- Posts: 724
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am
Post
by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:35 am
Even if he was talking about the cell he fought, Gohan would have no reason to hold back against an opponent that requires SSJ2 (from cell games) to beat. Goku and Vegeta mock Dabura as if he is no problem in their SSJ states and at this time, Goku doesnt even know that Vegeta can go SSJ2.
Toriyama implies that there are no limits to ki but there is a limit to physical strength. Goku also trained his SSJ2 and by that default, his SSJ state must get stronger too.
As I said before, Dabura can still call Gohan trash and he still be SSJ2. Gohan never contributed because he wasnt fighting. Goku and Vegeta were sending massive blows at eachother in SSJ2.
-
Undertaker
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 479
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:53 pm
Post
by Undertaker » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:24 am
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Even if he was talking about the cell he fought, Gohan would have no reason to hold back against an opponent that requires SSJ2 (from cell games) to beat. Goku and Vegeta mock Dabura as if he is no problem in their SSJ states and at this time, Goku doesnt even know that Vegeta can go SSJ2.
Toriyama implies that there are no limits to ki but there is a limit to physical strength. Goku also trained his SSJ2 and by that default, his SSJ state must get stronger too.
As I said before, Dabura can still call Gohan trash and he still be SSJ2. Gohan never contributed because he wasnt fighting. Goku and Vegeta were sending massive blows at eachother in SSJ2.
Gohan needs anger to go SSJ2. Goku even tells him to get mad like he did vs Cell
Yes, Goku thinks he can beat Dabura as a SSJ which means Gohan must had been SSJ vs Dabura
What Toriyama said is irrelevant. It's an overall statement. There are always exceptions and Goku said he broke his limits in the Rosat. Sure, he got stronger as a SSJ but not to the point he got so much stronger or being close to Cell. We know SSJ2 Goku is not leagues ahead of SSJ2 Kid Gohan so SSJ Goku can't be as strong as Cell
SSJ2 Teen Gohan is still SSJ2 tier and within the SSJ2s. If Dabura calls him trash so he must be considerably ahead of him which means Dabura would be close to SSJ2 Goku at least which is wrong. We know Dabura is leagues below SSJ2 Goku. Gohan says he might beat Initial Fat Boo if he reaches his full power. He means to his SSJ2
What proof do you have for Gohan to be a SSJ2? He was clearly drawn as a SSJ and the statements say he needs SSJ2
-
DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 12401
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
- Location: Greece
Post
by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:32 am
Goku told to Kaioshin "we fought a guy named Cell, and Dabra seems to be about as strong as that guy", so he could be even talking about First Form Cell. If he had told to Vegeta or Gohan something like "this guy is as strong as Cell", then yeah, he would definitely be talking about SP Cell. But since he says this to a guy that doesn't know who Cell is, and since he is talking in general (we fought, not Gohan fought), then we can't know about which state of Cell Goku is talking about.
Also, he said that Dabra was stronger than they fought because he could use magic, not because of his battle power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
-
Son_Gohan
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1121
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 pm
Post
by Son_Gohan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:02 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku told to Kaioshin "we fought a guy named Cell, and Dabra seems to be about as strong as that guy", so he could be even talking about First Form Cell.
You missed the part where he describes him as a "frightening opponent" for them back then. Every form of Cell before the one Goku and Gohan fought wouldn't be considered a threat to them in battle. So it's definitely not suggested to be anything lower than his Perfect Form.
-
DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 12401
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
- Location: Greece
Post
by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:21 am
I didn't. Even Surpassed Perfect Cell was a threat for them back then. In fact, all of Cell's forms were a threat for them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
-
Kamiccolo9
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 10371
- Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
- Location: Regensburg, Germany
Post
by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:25 am
Son_Gohan wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku told to Kaioshin "we fought a guy named Cell, and Dabra seems to be about as strong as that guy", so he could be even talking about First Form Cell.
You missed the part where he describes him as a "frightening opponent" for them back then. Every form of Cell before the one Goku and Gohan fought wouldn't be considered a threat to them in battle. So it's definitely not suggested to be anything lower than his Perfect Form.
Cell's first form is easily the most "frightening."
-
OWmyDragonBallz
- Regular
- Posts: 724
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am
Post
by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:39 pm
Undertaker wrote:OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Even if he was talking about the cell he fought, Gohan would have no reason to hold back against an opponent that requires SSJ2 (from cell games) to beat. Goku and Vegeta mock Dabura as if he is no problem in their SSJ states and at this time, Goku doesnt even know that Vegeta can go SSJ2.
Toriyama implies that there are no limits to ki but there is a limit to physical strength. Goku also trained his SSJ2 and by that default, his SSJ state must get stronger too.
As I said before, Dabura can still call Gohan trash and he still be SSJ2. Gohan never contributed because he wasnt fighting. Goku and Vegeta were sending massive blows at eachother in SSJ2.
Gohan needs anger to go SSJ2. Goku even tells him to get mad like he did vs Cell
Yes, Goku thinks he can beat Dabura as a SSJ which means Gohan must had been SSJ vs Dabura
What Toriyama said is irrelevant. It's an overall statement. There are always exceptions and Goku said he broke his limits in the Rosat. Sure, he got stronger as a SSJ but not to the point he got so much stronger or being close to Cell. We know SSJ2 Goku is not leagues ahead of SSJ2 Kid Gohan so SSJ Goku can't be as strong as Cell
SSJ2 Teen Gohan is still SSJ2 tier and within the SSJ2s. If Dabura calls him trash so he must be considerably ahead of him which means Dabura would be close to SSJ2 Goku at least which is wrong. We know Dabura is leagues below SSJ2 Goku. Gohan says he might beat Initial Fat Boo if he reaches his full power. He means to his SSJ2
What proof do you have for Gohan to be a SSJ2? He was clearly drawn as a SSJ and the statements say he needs SSJ2
Makes sense, but Gohan deliberately goes SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai and he wasn't angry at Kibito for anything. Vegeta makes no power difference of Gohan between the Tournament and the time he fought Dabura.
-
Undertaker
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 479
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:53 pm
Post
by Undertaker » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:41 pm
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Undertaker wrote:OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Even if he was talking about the cell he fought, Gohan would have no reason to hold back against an opponent that requires SSJ2 (from cell games) to beat. Goku and Vegeta mock Dabura as if he is no problem in their SSJ states and at this time, Goku doesnt even know that Vegeta can go SSJ2.
Toriyama implies that there are no limits to ki but there is a limit to physical strength. Goku also trained his SSJ2 and by that default, his SSJ state must get stronger too.
As I said before, Dabura can still call Gohan trash and he still be SSJ2. Gohan never contributed because he wasnt fighting. Goku and Vegeta were sending massive blows at eachother in SSJ2.
Gohan needs anger to go SSJ2. Goku even tells him to get mad like he did vs Cell
Yes, Goku thinks he can beat Dabura as a SSJ which means Gohan must had been SSJ vs Dabura
What Toriyama said is irrelevant. It's an overall statement. There are always exceptions and Goku said he broke his limits in the Rosat. Sure, he got stronger as a SSJ but not to the point he got so much stronger or being close to Cell. We know SSJ2 Goku is not leagues ahead of SSJ2 Kid Gohan so SSJ Goku can't be as strong as Cell
SSJ2 Teen Gohan is still SSJ2 tier and within the SSJ2s. If Dabura calls him trash so he must be considerably ahead of him which means Dabura would be close to SSJ2 Goku at least which is wrong. We know Dabura is leagues below SSJ2 Goku. Gohan says he might beat Initial Fat Boo if he reaches his full power. He means to his SSJ2
What proof do you have for Gohan to be a SSJ2? He was clearly drawn as a SSJ and the statements say he needs SSJ2
Makes sense, but Gohan deliberately goes SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai and he wasn't angry at Kibito for anything. Vegeta makes no power difference of Gohan between the Tournament and the time he fought Dabura.
He probably had the anger he felt when he saw Videl getting beaten
So what if Vegeta never said Gohan was just a SSJ? Goku later indirectly says so
-
hleV
- Banned
- Posts: 3325
- Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm
- Location: Lithuania
Post
by hleV » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:14 pm
Personally I don't see Gohan being anyhow angry against Kibito, since he knows that Videl is safe and sound thanks to a Senzu.
Regarding the topic, we could possibly factor in that Kibito didn't restore all of Gohan's energy that was drained by Yamu & Spopovich. Perhaps Gohan indeed couldn't go SS2 because he wasn't at full energy? Sure, then there's his struggle with Boo after eating a Senzu, but that's another matter which can have its own explanations.
-
Son_Gohan
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1121
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 pm
Post
by Son_Gohan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:12 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I didn't. Even Surpassed Perfect Cell was a threat for them back then. In fact, all of Cell's forms were a threat for them.
Not in the context of strength, which is what the whole comparison is for.
-
DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 12401
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
- Location: Greece
Post
by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:25 pm
What? First Form Cell was stronger than Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan both before & after finishing absorbing people.
Second Form Cell was stronger than Goku & Gohan, but Vegeta surpassed him.
Perfect Cell was stronger than everyone, including SS Gohan, and he was even stronger in Full Power, Super Saiyan Grade 3, Power-Weighed, and only SS2 Gohan was stronger than him.
Super Perfect Cell was even with SS2 Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
-
OWmyDragonBallz
- Regular
- Posts: 724
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am
Post
by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:54 pm
Gohan just got done healing Videl, he isn't angry about someone he saved. Gohan asks Kibito if he wants to see SSJ2 and he easily does it. No matter how you look at this debate, it can go both ways. Gohan may or may not have been SSJ2 against Dabura. We could look at the Daizenshuu and it says that Gohan was SSJ2, but then again there is another page saying he was SSJ. So it's an argument that can't be concluded.
-
Son_Gohan
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1121
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 pm
Post
by Son_Gohan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:57 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What? First Form Cell was stronger than Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan both before & after finishing absorbing people.
Second Form Cell was stronger than Goku & Gohan, but Vegeta surpassed him.
Perfect Cell was stronger than everyone, including SS Gohan, and he was even stronger in Full Power, Super Saiyan Grade 3, Power-Weighed, and only SS2 Gohan was stronger than him.
Super Perfect Cell was even with SS2 Gohan.
If the subject is about power, concerning their chances of defeating a certain opponent presently. Then how does it make any sense for Goku to refer to a point in time 7 years back where they wouldn't be at their strongest?
-
hleV
- Banned
- Posts: 3325
- Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm
- Location: Lithuania
Post
by hleV » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:07 pm
Son_Gohan wrote:
how does it make any sense for Goku to refer to a point in time 7 years back where they wouldn't be at their strongest?
Very easily. Dabra can't be compared to any other villain, so it's Cell that fits the best.
Last edited by
hleV on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 12401
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
- Location: Greece
Post
by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:08 pm
Son_Gohan wrote:If the subject is about power, concerning their chances of defeating a certain opponent presently. Then how does it make any sense for Goku to refer to a point in time 7 years back where they wouldn't be at their strongest?
Why would he be referring to his maximum 7 years ago?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
-
TheMightyOzaru
- Banned
- Posts: 6255
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:50 pm
- Location: Capsule Corp
Post
by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:10 pm
Fionordequester wrote:Alright Oozaru, I don't know why you moved the debate here, and I have to go to bed soon, so let me just ask you...
I didn't bring a debate here.... I specifically requested that people who believe Gohan is a SSJ2 shouldn't get involved here
.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
-
Son_Gohan
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1121
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 pm
Post
by Son_Gohan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:36 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Son_Gohan wrote:If the subject is about power, concerning their chances of defeating a certain opponent presently. Then how does it make any sense for Goku to refer to a point in time 7 years back where they wouldn't be at their strongest?
Why would he be referring to his maximum 7 years ago?
Just so were clear, I'm referring to Goku's strength being at its maximum. Bringing up their level when they still hadn't trained in the RoSaT is entirely irrelevant to their current situation. So anything below the Cell which fought Goku should not even cross his mind.
