Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It's in Volume 41. I'm not sure which chapter. It's when Goku and Kaioshin are watching the Gotenks/Buu fight, and Gohan is sitting over with Old Kaioshin wondering what's going on.
Super Saiyan ki has a distinctive feel to it, as we see back when Trunks shows up, and Gohan says it feels like his dad. If Kaioshin had felt Gotenks ki, then he would have known that Gotenks was a Super Saiyan, yet he attributed his power and appearance to fusion.
I checked quickly but nothing implied Gohan couldn't sense their kis. He wasn't shown until after Gotenks was absorbed.
Like I said Kaioshin wasn't aware of what a Super Saiyan 3 looked like. To him it might have been a Super Saiyan Fusion until Goku corrected him. He didn't imply they weren't Super Saiyan, only that their power mostly came from Fusion, or that this is how Fusion looked like.
My mistake then. It must be an anime only scene.
Regardless, Buu was able to sense Gohan from the Kaioshin realm, and we see later that Piccolo and the others can sense Goku and Buu, so everyone else should have sensed Gohan was well. And as far as Gotenks, we see Goku and Kaioshin's reaction as soon as Gotenks emerges, yet they were unaffected, nothing like when Goku transformed.
Actually as soon as Super Boo came out of the RoSaT Goku sensed him and was upset about not sensing Gotenks' ki. That's why Elder Kaioshin gave him the crystal ball so he could assess the situation.
That just brings us back to my opening comment. Piccolo and Gotenks were busy with Super Boo.
Goku was more than excited with Gotenks' power. I mean, Goku, the guy whose power reached Kaioshin Realm, stuttered while describing Gotenks' power.
The Kaioshins were initially freaked out by Goku's power because he was the first to be sensed. It's really just hype and by the time Gotenks' is sensed again, it's not such a big deal. It's the same deal with Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.
Bando wrote:Actually as soon as Super Boo came out of the RoSaT Goku sensed him and was upset about not sensing Gotenks' ki. That's why Elder Kaioshin gave him the crystal ball so he could assess the situation.
That just brings us back to my opening comment. Piccolo and Gotenks were busy with Super Boo.
Goku was more than excited with Gotenks' power. I mean, Goku, the guy whose power reached Kaioshin Realm, stuttered while describing Gotenks' power.
The Kaioshins were initially freaked out by Goku's power because he was the first to be sensed. It's really just hype and by the time Gotenks' is sensed again, it's not such a big deal. It's the same deal with Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.
If they sensed Super Buu, why didn't they sense Gotenks as soon as he showed up?
If Super Buu sensed Gohan before the fight with Gotenks, then Piccolo should have as well. He couldn't sense Gohan while in the ROSAT. And if he sensed Gohan during the fight outside, then Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
There should have been some reaction. Like I've said numerous times, nobody was trying to sense Goku. His ki just came out of nowhere and blew everybody away. Gotenks, being much stronger than Goku, should have had a similar reaction, yet we see nothing. Remember when Goku transformed? How everyone was overwhelmed by his power? Gotenks is way above that. Yet no reaction at all. Thus, an inconsistency.
Bando wrote:Actually as soon as Super Boo came out of the RoSaT Goku sensed him and was upset about not sensing Gotenks' ki. That's why Elder Kaioshin gave him the crystal ball so he could assess the situation.
That just brings us back to my opening comment. Piccolo and Gotenks were busy with Super Boo.
Goku was more than excited with Gotenks' power. I mean, Goku, the guy whose power reached Kaioshin Realm, stuttered while describing Gotenks' power.
The Kaioshins were initially freaked out by Goku's power because he was the first to be sensed. It's really just hype and by the time Gotenks' is sensed again, it's not such a big deal. It's the same deal with Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation.
If they sensed Super Buu, why didn't they sense Gotenks as soon as he showed up?
If Super Buu sensed Gohan before the fight with Gotenks, then Piccolo should have as well. He couldn't sense Gohan while in the ROSAT. And if he sensed Gohan during the fight outside, then Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
There should have been some reaction. Like I've said numerous times, nobody was trying to sense Goku. His ki just came out of nowhere and blew everybody away. Gotenks, being much stronger than Goku, should have had a similar reaction, yet we see nothing. Remember when Goku transformed? How everyone was overwhelmed by his power? Gotenks is way above that. Yet no reaction at all. Thus, an inconsistency.
Ki sensing is kinda flawed when you think about it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yeah, Sensing things is completely broken in the Buu arc.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If they sensed Super Buu, why didn't they sense Gotenks as soon as he showed up?
If Super Buu sensed Gohan before the fight with Gotenks, then Piccolo should have as well. He couldn't sense Gohan while in the ROSAT. And if he sensed Gohan during the fight outside, then Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
There should have been some reaction. Like I've said numerous times, nobody was trying to sense Goku. His ki just came out of nowhere and blew everybody away. Gotenks, being much stronger than Goku, should have had a similar reaction, yet we see nothing. Remember when Goku transformed? How everyone was overwhelmed by his power? Gotenks is way above that. Yet no reaction at all. Thus, an inconsistency.
Gotenks was still in the RoSaT when they got the crystal ball. After they saw Gotenks leave the RoSaT, they probably did sense him, but it wasn't so much a big deal anymore. It might be that Kaioshin and Goku's conversation is operating on the basis that they're sensing Gotenks's ki. It only makes sense if they had already sensed Super Boo's and Super Saiyan Gotenks's.
Piccolo was distracted with Super Boo. It'd be kind of hard to focus on anything else. It's the same when Goku was fully healed and traveled to Freeza's location. Nobody sensed his approach.
However the Kaioshin Realm is a secluded area. The fact they "didn't try" is not that big a deal, because it was the only other thing they could sense besides themselves. Since it was already assumed Gotenks would be on par with Goku, they were probably on the look out. Thus any ki that popped up would be more "expected" than Goku's.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If they sensed Super Buu, why didn't they sense Gotenks as soon as he showed up?
If Super Buu sensed Gohan before the fight with Gotenks, then Piccolo should have as well. He couldn't sense Gohan while in the ROSAT. And if he sensed Gohan during the fight outside, then Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
There should have been some reaction. Like I've said numerous times, nobody was trying to sense Goku. His ki just came out of nowhere and blew everybody away. Gotenks, being much stronger than Goku, should have had a similar reaction, yet we see nothing. Remember when Goku transformed? How everyone was overwhelmed by his power? Gotenks is way above that. Yet no reaction at all. Thus, an inconsistency.
Gotenks was still in the RoSaT when they got the crystal ball. After they saw Gotenks leave the RoSaT, they probably did sense him, but it wasn't so much a big deal anymore. It might be that Kaioshin and Goku's conversation is operating on the basis that they're sensing Gotenks's ki. It only makes sense if they had already sensed Super Boo's and Super Saiyan Gotenks's.
Piccolo was distracted with Super Boo. It'd be kind of hard to focus on anything else. It's the same when Goku was fully healed and traveled to Freeza's location. Nobody sensed his approach.
However the Kaioshin Realm is a secluded area. The fact they "didn't try" is not that big a deal, because it was the only other thing they could sense besides themselves. Since it was already assumed Gotenks would be on par with Goku, they were probably on the look out. Thus any ki that popped up would be more "expected" than Goku's.
Except Gotenks wasn't on par with Goku-he was many times stronger. And they showed no reaction to it. Earth had a grand total of something like 5 people alive on it when Gohan was powering up, I'd hardly say that there was that much else to sense.
Super Buu was able to sense Gohan during the fight, so Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:He's pakl123456 from YouTube. He will deny this due to how many enemies he has on all the forums.
I don't have to deny who I am. Yes I am am pakl123456 and I am proud. Any problem with that?
VegettoEX: I am not rude at all but just states what's stated
Kamiccolo: There is no need to feel it if they were about to watch them
Really? You are proud of going around the internet and making fake accounts on people who continuously disagree with you on certain topics. Going around Facebook, Twitter, G mail, Hot mail, forums etc. etc. etc.
and making fake impersonations and bios'es/memes about them accusing them of being "homosexuals" and shit like that? Pity dude pity.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If they sensed Super Buu, why didn't they sense Gotenks as soon as he showed up?
If Super Buu sensed Gohan before the fight with Gotenks, then Piccolo should have as well. He couldn't sense Gohan while in the ROSAT. And if he sensed Gohan during the fight outside, then Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
There should have been some reaction. Like I've said numerous times, nobody was trying to sense Goku. His ki just came out of nowhere and blew everybody away. Gotenks, being much stronger than Goku, should have had a similar reaction, yet we see nothing. Remember when Goku transformed? How everyone was overwhelmed by his power? Gotenks is way above that. Yet no reaction at all. Thus, an inconsistency.
Gotenks was still in the RoSaT when they got the crystal ball. After they saw Gotenks leave the RoSaT, they probably did sense him, but it wasn't so much a big deal anymore. It might be that Kaioshin and Goku's conversation is operating on the basis that they're sensing Gotenks's ki. It only makes sense if they had already sensed Super Boo's and Super Saiyan Gotenks's.
Piccolo was distracted with Super Boo. It'd be kind of hard to focus on anything else. It's the same when Goku was fully healed and traveled to Freeza's location. Nobody sensed his approach.
However the Kaioshin Realm is a secluded area. The fact they "didn't try" is not that big a deal, because it was the only other thing they could sense besides themselves. Since it was already assumed Gotenks would be on par with Goku, they were probably on the look out. Thus any ki that popped up would be more "expected" than Goku's.
Except Gotenks wasn't on par with Goku-he was many times stronger. And they showed no reaction to it. Earth had a grand total of something like 5 people alive on it when Gohan was powering up, I'd hardly say that there was that much else to sense.
Super Buu was able to sense Gohan during the fight, so Gotenks and Piccolo should have been able to as well.
Piccolo couldn't sense Cell when he was coming in his direction while fighting 17 while the humans could.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
They did react to it. Goku stuttered when he spoke of him, remember?
Namek also had a total of five powerful beings left, but no one sensed Goku's approach. Ki sensing is occasionally ignored to allow for dramatic entrances or expositions. Like for example, Super Perfect Cell remained ignorant of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's ki.
It doesn't make ki sensing any more inconsistent then when a stray ki blast fails to destroy Earth.
Super Boo had already sensed Gohan before and he was more alert. Though I forget if he ever sensed him again after the first time; I don't think so. Piccolo and Gotenks were solely concentrated on Boo.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Really? You are proud of going around the internet and making fake accounts on people who continuously disagree with you on certain topics. Going around Facebook, Twitter, G mail, Hot mail, forums etc. etc. etc.
and making fake impersonations and bios'es/memes about them accusing them of being "homosexuals" and shit like that? Pity dude pity.
Yeah tell me about it. In another forum he always comes along and makes a Broly thread just to disagree with people. It's so dang annoying.
Last edited by Bando on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Piccolo couldn't sense Cell when he was coming in his direction while fighting 17 while the humans could.
True, but Piccolo wasn't fighting Buu, Gotenks was. If the Earthlings could sense a power traveling towards a fight while sensing that fight, why couldn't Piccolo.
Also, why didn't Dende sense any of this going on?
dbzfan7 wrote:
Piccolo couldn't sense Cell when he was coming in his direction while fighting 17 while the humans could.
True, but Piccolo wasn't fighting Buu, Gotenks was. If the Earthlings could sense a power traveling towards a fight while sensing that fight, why couldn't Piccolo.
Also, why didn't Dende sense any of this going on?
Piccolo was still invested in the fight as it kinda determined everything. Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta don't realize Freeza is around until the very last moment because they wre focused on the dragon balls.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Piccolo couldn't sense Cell when he was coming in his direction while fighting 17 while the humans could.
True, but Piccolo wasn't fighting Buu, Gotenks was. If the Earthlings could sense a power traveling towards a fight while sensing that fight, why couldn't Piccolo.
Also, why didn't Dende sense any of this going on?
Piccolo was still invested in the fight as it kinda determined everything. Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta don't realize Freeza is around until the very last moment because they wre focused on the dragon balls.
True, but that still doesn't explain how Buu could sense Gohan growing in power, yet no one else could. Like I said, before the fight with Buu, there were a bunch of people gathered on Kami's lookout, most of whom were capable of sensing ki, yet nobody did. And if Buu was sensing Gohan during the fight, then there's no reason why Piccolo or Gotenks couldn't.
The funny thing is, "drama" really is an explanation for some things...
Elder Kaioshin: Okay, you can go! You've been finished for a while now.
Gohan: --F---F-Finished!? For a while now? Since how long ago!?
Elder Kaioshin: Hmm, since about five minutes ago, I suppose.
Gohan: W- why didn't you tell us sooner!? You were just saying that since I got distracted, it was going to take longer, didn't you!?
Elder Kaioshin: Ignorant fool! It's more dramatic for you to go once there's a pinch, you know!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
True, but that still doesn't explain how Buu could sense Gohan growing in power, yet no one else could. Like I said, before the fight with Buu, there were a bunch of people gathered on Kami's lookout, most of whom were capable of sensing ki, yet nobody did. And if Buu was sensing Gohan during the fight, then there's no reason why Piccolo or Gotenks couldn't.
It was most likely for dramatic purposes. In-Universe it makes no sense. Out of Universe I would think that if they did sense Gohan right there it would spoil the dramatic moment of Gohan kicking the crap out of Super Boo as Super Boo himself declared himself weaker. Or it could be just Toriyama not thinking about this stuff as much as we do. Either way ki sensing is random.
Though did Super Boo sense the Anger burst Gohan or Final one. In the anime it seems the final one, but Super Boo said he was stalling earlier and by the time Gohan fully accessed his power the fight was over.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
True, but that still doesn't explain how Buu could sense Gohan growing in power, yet no one else could. Like I said, before the fight with Buu, there were a bunch of people gathered on Kami's lookout, most of whom were capable of sensing ki, yet nobody did. And if Buu was sensing Gohan during the fight, then there's no reason why Piccolo or Gotenks couldn't.
It was most likely for dramatic purposes. In-Universe it makes no sense. Out of Universe I would think that if they did sense Gohan right there it would spoil the dramatic moment of Gohan kicking the crap out of Super Boo as Super Boo himself declared himself weaker. Or it could be just Toriyama not thinking about this stuff as much as we do. Either way ki sensing is random.
I agree, but this is an in-universe forum In-universe, it means either everyone got much dumber (which happens a lot in the Buu Arc), or it's an inconsistency. Since it makes more since for Toryama to have made a mistake (or not worried about this kind of stuff) than for every single character to suddenly lose major IQ points, I go with inconsistency.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
True, but that still doesn't explain how Buu could sense Gohan growing in power, yet no one else could. Like I said, before the fight with Buu, there were a bunch of people gathered on Kami's lookout, most of whom were capable of sensing ki, yet nobody did. And if Buu was sensing Gohan during the fight, then there's no reason why Piccolo or Gotenks couldn't.
It was most likely for dramatic purposes. In-Universe it makes no sense. Out of Universe I would think that if they did sense Gohan right there it would spoil the dramatic moment of Gohan kicking the crap out of Super Boo as Super Boo himself declared himself weaker. Or it could be just Toriyama not thinking about this stuff as much as we do. Either way ki sensing is random.
I agree, but this is an in-universe forum In-universe, it means either everyone got much dumber (which happens a lot in the Buu Arc), or it's an inconsistency. Since it makes more since for Toryama to have made a mistake (or not worried about this kind of stuff) than for every single character to suddenly lose major IQ points, I go with inconsistency.
As do I Sir Kamiccolo
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
In-universe, it means either everyone got much dumber (which happens a lot in the Buu Arc), or it's an inconsistency. Since it makes more since for Toryama to have made a mistake (or not worried about this kind of stuff) than for every single character to suddenly lose major IQ points, I go with inconsistency.