SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Bando]

Since the word "fact" is getting thrown around now, let me quote a little philosophy for these things which I've found serves me well.

An in-universe statement or prediction CAN be taken as fact if it's never contradicted. But it only MUST or at least SHOULD be taken as fact if it's actually proven or confirmed.

That is all.

Nice quote. I would only switch "can" for "should", personally. In the end there's no way to prove it 100%, but it's just as silly to question. It depends on the medium really.

[PerfectFreeza]

Yeah, in the Daiz when it says that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after training in the Rosat, so you cut the shitty attitude.

Daizenshuu also says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabra.Goku can't be that stupid to be think SSJ1 Gotenks can win against Fat Buu, when he himself admitted, that he as SSJ2 couldn't beat him, even with Vegeta and Gohan.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's already been established that Gotenks pre can't be stronger than Goku.

Wait, really? You have official author/editor notes that that is an established fact? Can you please show me that would be awesome.

Yeah, in the Daiz when it says that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta until after training in the Rosat, so you cut the shitty attitude.

That quote contradicts the manga.
First off, he fights Buu, in base, and survives. It may be a gag feat, but he still survived against a guy that took everything Majin Vegeta had and came out smiling. Krillin even considered that he might have a chance, and Krillin had sensed Fat Buu's strength during the fight against Vegeta.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”

Of course, he was proven wrong, but it still indicates that Gotenks is extremely powerful, even in base.

When they fuse as Super Saiyans, Piccolo says that their ki is incredible. He sensed Vegeta's ki, both throughout the fight with Buu, and for his Final Explosion attack. In fact, Piccolo is more worried about Gotenks' speed than he is his power.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

And here, he's not worried about Buu killing Gotenks, instead, he's worried about the time limit on fusion about to be up.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

Everything in the manga, from feats, to gag feats, to statements, indicates that Gotenks is above Vegeta even before his ROSAT training. Against that, a Daizenshuu quote doesn't really mean much. If Gotenks was weaker than Vegeta when he was first formed, then his base form would be pathetic. Piccolo could have just grabbed him when he flew off to fight Buu, yet instead he stood there helpless.

[Axiom]

What is stated, is stated. You're just picking not to believe something (with no real basis) because you don't want to. Whatever.

[Kamiccolo9]

What is stated, is stated. You're just picking not to believe something (with no real basis) because you don't want to. Whatever.

Did you actually read any of what I posted?

[RandomGuy96]

Since the word "fact" is getting thrown around now, let me quote a little philosophy for these things which I've found serves me well.

An in-universe statement or prediction CAN be taken as fact if it's never contradicted. But it only MUST or at least SHOULD be taken as fact if it's actually proven or confirmed.

That is all.

How is Piccolo sensing Fat Buu, Vegeta, and Gotenks and then concluding that Gotenks can win NOT confirmation? Did everyone in this arc get a lobotomy? Did Piccolo forget how to sense ki? Why didn't Piccolo scream "Me-dammit, Goku was wrong, you're even weaker than Vegeta! Get into the ROSAT!"?

And no, don't give me that "he never directly said Gotenks was stronger than Fat Buu". He sensed Vegeta, he saw him fail miserably against Fat Buu, he sensed SS3 Goku, was under the impression that SS3 Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu, he sensed Fat Buu... the author shouldn't have to spell out something so blatantly obvious. If Piccolo gets told that SS Gotenks would be enough to beat someone SS2 Vegeta and (apparently) SS3 Goku couldn't, and doesn't contradict it when SS Gotenks shows up, even calling his ki 'incredible', it's very, very clear what's meant to be conveyed.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”

Okay, why is Piccolo calling his ki incredible if it's supposedly below Fat Buu and someone who got ass-stomped by Fat Buu? Why isn't he instead calling him pitifully weak?

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

Why is he only concerned about the fusion limit if Gotenks is such a pitiful weakling?

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

He sensed SS Gotenks, Fat Buu, and Vegeta, and said that Gotenks wouldn't need the ROSAT. Then he sensed Super Buu, said he'd powered up, and said that they need to go into the ROSAT right away, saying that even with fusion, they can't win. If SS Gotenks is weaker than Fat Buu, this would MAKE. NO. SENSE.

[Undertaker]

Gohan was to build up drama

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c497/3

Look what Kaioshin says

They were watching Gotenks through the crystal so feeling him would be out of context. They never felt Pure Boo but watched him through the crystal

I am not rude

That's not an in-universe answer. Buu sensed Gohan; why didn't anyone else?
They wouldn't have to try to feel him. They weren't trying to sense Goku either, but they did.
Why weren't Gohan, Piccolo, and the others shocked when Goku and Pure Buu were fighting? Why didn't the Kaioshins sense them then?

Not any event has to be shown. Again, they never felt him to build up drama and Kaioshin even mentions something like it. The fact you say it's not an answer is proof you can't counter it. Piccolo and the others were too occupied at defeating Evil Boo

It doesn't matter how many sensed him, he was sensed and that's all

Everyone was dead when Pure Boo and Goku were fighting

You don't debunk what I say. To counter what I say you have to show foes who were sensed without being SSJ3 tier, meanwhile SSJ Gotenks as sensed and he is SSJ3 tier

OWmyDragonBallz: I am sorry you actually think those things about me. This is HyperLightning, not me. Wow, I am amazed yu could not even realize it judging by his writing style. Also, I never made fake accounts. I am a respectful debater

Regardless, suddenly all of you agree SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo so I don't care. Toriyama shows they can sense the unexpected events like Evil Boo, SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks was expected to appear so no point in showing it on screen but later Goku complains he can't feel him which means he felt him before

[Kamiccolo9]

Read the last page or so of discussion.

[Mjb1985]

Yea it seems like an easy situation imo.

There's Vegeta's level. And then there's Goku and Buu's level. Goku and Buu have an even fight more or less and Piccolo whether watching the fight or sensing Goku has the impression that Goku could win. But it's not a definite thing. He actually needs to pull Goku aside and discreetly talk to him.

So Goku confirms his suspicions and Goku states that Gotenks will be stronger and will definitely win.

So in general I think Gotenks power at its starting point should at least be around Goku's. Most likely a bit superior, but it doesn't have to be by much.

Add two transformations on top and now you have a massive difference between Goku and Gotenks. Which makes perfect sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What is stated, is stated. You're just picking not to believe something (with no real basis) because you don't want to. Whatever.

First of all, it is very clear in the manga that SS3 Gotenks is way stronger than SS3 Goku. Secondly, the Daizenshuu could be talking about base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, since Piccolo felt that Gotenks had gotten a very big power-up inside the RoSaT.
Now, if you are keep ignoring the evidence we throw to you... you aren't worth anyone's attention.

[BejitaSama]

you aren't worth anyone's attention.

Because...? He has a different point of view ? You're truly open-minded man ! The debate exist since 20 years. You are not the one who will put an end to this, sorry. And if the debate exist, it's that nothing is sure.

Since the word "fact" is getting thrown around now, let me quote a little philosophy for these things which I've found serves me well.

An in-universe statement or prediction CAN be taken as fact if it's never contradicted. But it only MUST or at least SHOULD be taken as fact if it's actually proven or confirmed.

Kaboom powaa Some should learn that lesson.

First off, he fights Buu, in base, and survives. It may be a gag feat, but he still survived against a guy that took everything Majin Vegeta had and came out smiling. Krillin even considered that he might have a chance, and Krillin had sensed Fat Buu's strength during the fight against Vegeta.

I'm' sorry but this is truly not a valid argument. So Trunks SSJ Dai 3 Dankai is stronger than Perfect Cell, and we have a lot of these examples. It's not because A thinks that B can win that he's right. And if for you the fact that base Gotenks is alive after his "fight" against Fat Buu means that he's at least in the Majin Bejita level...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

you aren't worth anyone's attention.

Because...? He has a different point of view ? You're truly open-minded man ! The debate exist since 20 years. You are not the one who will put an end to this, sorry. And if the debate exist, it's that nothing is sure.

You can have a different opinion when things are not clear, but it's been made very clear in the manga that SS3 Gotenks is at least as strong as Evil Boo, and that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta are no match for Evil Boo.

[BejitaSama]

but it's been made very clear in the manga that SS3 Gotenks is at least as strong as Evil Boo, and that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta are no match for Evil Boo

I won't go by this way again, I already said a lot of times what I thought about this. Whatever, if you think you have the absolute truth on this and that Dragon Ball follow an absolute mathematic logic...

[Mjb1985]

I think that Gotenks and Super Buu being showed clearly superior to Goku and Vegeta can be taken as a fact. What's wrong with that?

[BejitaSama]

A lot of things that happen later (Kaioshins, Pure Buu, Gokû suppressed against Fat Buu..., if you want my opinion you just have to go to my previous posts, I have no time to re-write it ) , Anime choices (it's weird that Toei took the option of a Goku and Pure Buu stronger if, in the manga as you claim, Evil Buu and Gotenks are clearly 10 times stronger...it would be like if they would made Goku stronger than Gohan SSJ2 in Cell Game...no, worse !), Guidebooks...

Its not the absolute truth because it wasn't spelled out it the manga by Goku or Vegeta that "Super Buu is stronger than us". However, Goku did say that if they faced him as they were, they would be killed. That and all the other strong indications which point in that direction, makes the degree of certainty that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku very high. More than a 90% degree of certainty in my opinion.

For this quote, you just have to read my signature And I will never understand the "very high".

[rereboy]

I won't go by this way again, I already said a lot of times what I thought about this. Whatever, if you think you have the absolute truth on this and that Dragon Ball follow an absolute mathematic logic...

Its not the absolute truth because it wasn't spelled out it the manga by Goku or Vegeta that "Super Buu is stronger than us". However, Goku did say that if they faced him as they were, they would be killed. That and all the other strong indications which point in that direction, makes the degree of certainty that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku very high. More than a 90% degree of certainty in my opinion. All arguments on the contrary are pretty weak by comparison.

[Mjb1985]

Goku straight up said that Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. How does it not get clearer than that?

[BejitaSama]

Just read my signature or my previous posts as I said

Goku's statments in Buu saga :
" I can't beat Fat Buu because Bejita didn't, we were equal "
" I don't think I could beat Fat Buu in SSJ3"
" We can't beat Super Buu ! "
" Okay, I admit : I could beat Fat Buu "
"We can take Pure Buu haha"
" Oh shit, he's stronger than we thought !"

Just choose one of the fucked-up Goku's statment , and you have your answer !

[rereboy]

Goku straight up said that Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. How does it not get clearer than that?

Well, its possible that Goku was referring to the fact they were tiny at the moment. I don't believe that but I guess its possible. Either, like I said, more than a 90% degree of certainty that Super Buu is stronger.

Just read my signature or my previous posts as I said

Situations 1, 2 and 4 were explained in the manga. Goku didn't want to humiliate Vegeta so he didn't use SSJ3 on him. Also, he was convinced that it would be way better for Earth if a living hero defeated Buu instead of him. Hence why he didn't try his all to destroy Buu nor did he admit that he actually thought that he could have defeated him to Piccolo or anyone else, so that they truly had to depend on themselves.

However there is no other explanation provided by the manga regarding situation 3, other than its literal meaning. Only with fan theories and assumptions it can become something else.

[Mjb1985]

Why would Vegetto expect to stay tiny forever after leaving Buu? This is his plan after all.