Why did Toriyama...
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Why did Toriyama...
But they are not talking about the current situation, they are talking about 7 years ago.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Why did Toriyama...
Which was only referred to on account of their chances against a present opponent. It again makes no sense for Goku to think of a stage of Cell that they could've defeated easily back then considering the context of their discussion. None at all.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But they are not talking about the current situation, they are talking about 7 years ago.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Why did Toriyama...
But back then, there wasn't any form of Cell they could easily defeat.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Fionordequester
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Re: Why did Toriyama...
Oh...OH, so you actually weren't kidding about that huh? I thought that was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else, so sorry about that.I didn't bring a debate here.... I specifically requested that people who believe Gohan is a SSJ2 shouldn't get involved here.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
Re: Why did Toriyama...
You're looking at it wrong.
Just imagine...
Dabra appears. He's incredibly strong. Perhaps somewhere between 2nd form Cell & SPC.
Now you're to explain to Kaioshin how Dabra is not a threat now, but would've been 7 years ago. Cell in general definitely fits the comparison, his maximum power has nothing to do with anything here.
Not to mention that Goku & Vegeta as SSs couldn't beat SPC, and nothing implies they intended to use SS2 against Dabra.
Just imagine...
Dabra appears. He's incredibly strong. Perhaps somewhere between 2nd form Cell & SPC.
Now you're to explain to Kaioshin how Dabra is not a threat now, but would've been 7 years ago. Cell in general definitely fits the comparison, his maximum power has nothing to do with anything here.
Not to mention that Goku & Vegeta as SSs couldn't beat SPC, and nothing implies they intended to use SS2 against Dabra.
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Undertaker
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Re: Why did Toriyama...
The Manga draws him as a SSJ so he was a SSJ. Gohan was angry before and still had the anger within him. t gave him the ability to go SSJ2. Think about it, Toriyama shows Gohan being furious moments before he should go SSJ2 for a reason. I know it's non canon but in M10, the scene is the same and Gohan goes SSJ2 vs Broly when he saw how Videl, Goten and Trunks were half dead because he needs angerOWmyDragonBallz wrote:Gohan just got done healing Videl, he isn't angry about someone he saved. Gohan asks Kibito if he wants to see SSJ2 and he easily does it. No matter how you look at this debate, it can go both ways. Gohan may or may not have been SSJ2 against Dabura. We could look at the Daizenshuu and it says that Gohan was SSJ2, but then again there is another page saying he was SSJ. So it's an argument that can't be concluded.
Re: Why did Toriyama...
You probably know my opinion, but I will try to fit this logic and explain it as plausible as I can.TheMightyOzaru wrote:Make Gohan a SSJ against Dabura as opposed to a SSJ2? It would have made the fight all the more entertaining.
Dabura saw Goku SSJ's powerlevel in kiris, but didn't bother to fight the 3 Saiyans altogether because he didn't believe there was such a strong person in Earth, or maybe Goku wasn't displaying his full power as a SSJ when they did the measurement. Two possibilities.
Toriyama draw Gohan as a Super Saiyan, he intended to do it this way to make Majin Vegeta even more dangerous in his SSJ's form and so he proceeded to transform into SSJ2 to do a larger amount of damage on Goku and awake Majin Buu at full power with the damage energy received from Goku SSJ2.
When Gohan fought Cell he was severely injured to the point he lost more than half of his power, being weaker than his hyphotetical SSJ's form. Remember, ki blasts have amplifying factor, the case is that Cell's attack energy exceeded Gohan SSJ2's powerlevel and Gohan only used one arm to defend Vegeta. Gohan SSJ (Buu Saga) & Dabura can injure Gohan SSJ2 (Cell Games) like Cell did if they are in the same kind of situation.
We must not forget Gohan was stronger as a brat, so Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) is still stronger than Cell. Gohan didn't go SSJ2 against Dabura because he believed he was able to win without it, despite hearing from Goku that Dabura and Cell were about the same strenght. Then, Gohan SSJ (Cell Games), Goku SSJ & Vegeta SSJ are at least stronger than Super Perfect Cell, but still weaker than Gohan SSJ2 (Cell Games).
The thing is that Perfect Cell should be above Gohan SSJ (Cell Games). The only possibility that comes to my mind is that Gohan gained power from anger on top of transforming into Super Saiyan 2. That's why he was able to fight Super Perfect Cell with less half of his power, despite being weaker until Goku talks to him and Vegeta attracts Cell's attention.