SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[BejitaSama]

That's not an interpretation, it's a straight up fact. Goku didn't need to fuse, he knows that. Does Goku's statement about him being able to beat Fat Buu during his fight with Pure Buu mean nothing to you?

It is. You have the incredible abilty to judge what is a fact and what is not, according to what you want to prove or rather impose. He knows he didn't need to fuse, but without Mr Popo proposal, what was going on ? He prefered hide his SSJ3 and let the earth burn ? okay, you're in Goku's head, it's a fact.
I don't understand the aim of your last question.

He suggested Fusion against Innocent Boo because he didn't want to use Super Saiyan 3, since he didn't want to waste his time on the Limit World.

He didn't want to kill Boo because he wanted to make the kids stronger than him, because he was supposed to stay dead. So he had to make new successors, since he thought that Gohan was dead, which is why he lied about not being sure if he could beat Boo.

He lied to Vegeta that they couldn't beat Evil Boo because...?

1- Yeah, so without Popo earth would be destroy. Good point Goku !
2- It's not explaning why he lied to Piccolo. Or I don't understand. There's a contradiction in your theory : if Goku really wanted to hide his SSJ3 and let it to the boys when he talked to Krilin and Piccolo, why does he proposes a fusion with Bejita or Gohan ? It implies him. And the excuse : "if he had said that he was confident that he could destroy him, they would ask him to do so, they would try to convince him. He didn't want that, he wanted them focused on solutions that required their own power."I disagree. Piccolo is not stupid, Goku already tell him that he didn't know, which implies he could have, may be. Piccolo understand at this moment that it's a gamble. But Goku still liying.

He lied to Bejita because Fusion was the safer way to kill Evil Buu, and he has to convince Bejita to fuse.

[Mjb1985]

What reason did Goku have to lie to Vegeta about their chances against Super Buu?

[BejitaSama]

IMO, he lied to Bejita because Fusion was the safer way to kill Evil Buu, and he has to convince Bejita to fuse. He was Bejito, a guy who destroyed Evil Buu Gohan, he can make the same thing to kill Evil Buu instead of using all of his power and maybe fall.

[Kamiccolo9]

A fusion with Vegeta or Gohan would still allow someone living to gain the power to save the Earth. Goku would just be helping out.
And sense when is Goku a compulsive liar? You keep saying that all other views are interpretations, yet your's is the only one that renders Goku completely out of character.

[Mjb1985]

So how come he didn't convince Vegeta vs Kid Buu? Since Kid Buu is apparently stronger than Super Buu in your opinion?

[rereboy]

if Goku really wanted to hide his SSJ3 and let it to the boys when he talked to Krilin and Piccolo, why does he proposes a fusion with Bejita or Gohan ? It implies him.

Because it also implies more than him. It would require at least one person that still belonged to the living world. Goku is not agaisnt any and all interferences on his part. If he was, the fact that were using a technique that he had to taught them would also count as interference. Goku just didn't want them to depend exclusively on him, he didn't want to save the world by himself. He wanted them to save themselves or at least play a major part in it.

Of course, if there truly was no other option for defeating Buu other than defeating Buu by himself, I'm pretty sure that Goku would have decided to do it.

[PerfectFreeza]

No, he outright said they would get beaten together.
Him lying is just baseless excuse.

[BejitaSama]

A fusion with Vegeta or Gohan would still allow someone living to gain the power to save the Earth. Goku would just be helping out.

You're just out-of character here too. And you're playing on the words, a fusion between Goku and another implie Goku as well. It would be like to say that Gotenks don't imply Goten or Trunks.
I don't say that my theory is better than yours, but I don't see where it's more out-of character than "South Kaioshin increased Buu's power", "South Kaioshin was SSJ3 tier", "Evil Buu is more than 10 times stronger than fat Buu".

So how come he didn't convince Vegeta vs Kid Buu? Since Kid Buu is apparently stronger than Super Buu in your opinion?

Earth was burn out, he made a big mistake by letting Gohan and the others diying while he saved Satan and Dendé, so he feels guilty. Bejita clearly didn't want to fuse anymore, and the Saiyan is enraged against him. I don't think it wold be a good moment to try again the "Hey, do you want to fuse ?" Bejita would cut his head off ! It's at this moment that his Saiyan pride takes the advantage. Furthermore, they underestimated Pure Majin Buu.

But I understand, I won't debate here anymore, you are the best Dragon Ball community in the world, with all the answers. "Why did we debate here something that we prove, even if it's a debate since 1994, and that Toei dosen't respect ? Toei is shit, we're above that ! "

Yours faithfully.

[rereboy]

As I stated previously, its not proven, its not 100% certain. But, as I also said, I think its fairly obvious that there is a higher degree of certainty towards a given interpretation. You can interpret it any way you like but surely you will agree that some things are just more probable than others, even without definite proof either way.

[Kamiccolo9]

But I understand, I won't debate here anymore, you are the best Dragon Ball community in the world, with all the answers. "Why did we debate here something that we prove, even if it's a debate since 1994, and that Toei dosen't respect ? Toei is shit, we're above that ! "

Yours faithfully.

You showed up here, and practically the only topic you comment on is Buu Arc power levels. Maybe you should try expanding your horizons a bit, before you show up, state that everyone here is incorrect, and offer insufficient evidence to the contrary. But if you are going to leave over differing views of an arbitrary power level of a character, then that's your decision. See ya.

[PerfectFreeza]

Toei only cares about Goku and making newer villains stronger than the last ones.
Look at all the movies and GT.It's no wonder they strayed off the manga's path.

[BejitaSama]

Just to be clear Kami : I'm not the one who tries to prove you you're wrong, I just wanted to show you That there could be another explanation. It´s you who are arguing all the Time That this is a fact, That i'm wrong, so stupid. You are a little bit arrogant, and as you don't see it, I préfer stop.

And Toei was so in love with goku That they respected the fact That Gohan was stronger during Cell Game.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Back to the topic at hand. I think SSJ3 Gotenks is exactly 7 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku because I don't believe Gotenks Pre or Post were quite as strong as SSJ3 Goku. He just needed to be stronger than Fat Buu Post for the story to make sense IMO. Here is where I have everyone:
SSJ3 Goku: 32,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks(Pre): 25,000,000,000
SSJ Gontenks(Post): 28,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks: 224,000,000,000
Evil Buu: 180,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 300,000,000,000

[Kamiccolo9]

Back to the topic at hand. I think SSJ3 Gotenks is exactly 7 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku because I don't believe Gotenks Pre or Post were quite as strong as SSJ3 Goku. He just needed to be stronger than Fat Buu Post for the story to make sense IMO. Here is where I have everyone:
SSJ3 Goku: 32,000,000,000
SSJ Gotenks(Pre): 25,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gontenks(Post): 28,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks: 224,000,000,000

I think you mean that SSJ Gotenks was 28 billion. I could agree with this.

Just to be clear Kami : I'm not the one who tries to prove you you're wrong, I just wanted to show you That there could be another explanation. It´s you who are arguing all the Time That this is a fact, That i'm wrong, so stupid. You are a little bit arrogant, and as you don't see it, I préfer stop.

When the other explanation requires everyone in the story to lose several IQ points, turns Goku into a compulsive liar for no reason, ignores blatant statements from the manga by claiming that they are lies, and has to be backed by Toei to make sense (and they have Pure Buu being stronger than Buuhan; Please tell me that you're not arguing that), then that explanation doesn't work.

[PerfectFreeza]

One moment is less, than an entire series, 1/3 of Buu saga and almost all of the movies.The worst offenders are Movies 6, 7, 8 and 13.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Honestly the Goku wank in the later movies just stopped me from even making movie power levels. I have a general idea of where other movie villains are, like Broly, but still, I just gave up on movie power levels.

[Mjb1985]

Piccolo wasn't 100% sure that Goku could defeat Buu. I don't think he's drastically stronger.

[MDSTSSJ]

Is a fact that Goku lied and dodged answers several times in the Boo´s Arc for a good reason. Lies are not conclusive or determinative but unfortunately, are very important in discussions of power in the Boo Saga. And by those lies, dodged answers and hurt the Vegeta´s pride, is not so easy to know the actual strength of SSJ3 Kakarotto in my personal opinion.

Is a fact ( Manga an Anime ) that Super Boo, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are way stronger than SSJ3 Kakarotto. For me, seeing it better now, from 4 to 6 times stronger but never 8 to 10 times.

Note: For me, x2 gap y a very big difference.

[Mjb1985]

What suggested that Piccolo didn't sense Goku's true abilities?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1- Yeah, so without Popo earth would be destroy. Good point Goku !

So, you believe that if Mr. Popo (or anyone there) hadn't thought of Goten & Trunks using Fusion, Goku wouldn't use Super Saiyan 3 to kill Boo?

2- It's not explaning why he lied to Piccolo. Or I don't understand. There's a contradiction in your theory : if Goku really wanted to hide his SSJ3 and let it to the boys when he talked to Krilin and Piccolo, why does he proposes a fusion with Bejita or Gohan ? It implies him. And the excuse : "if he had said that he was confident that he could destroy him, they would ask him to do so, they would try to convince him. He didn't want that, he wanted them focused on solutions that required their own power."I disagree. Piccolo is not stupid, Goku already tell him that he didn't know, which implies he could have, may be. Piccolo understand at this moment that it's a gamble. But Goku still liying.

What I say is not a theory, it's stated in the manga. Goku said that he could kill Boo, but didn't do it because he wanted the kids to do it, instead of relying on him again. He believed that it wasn't his responsibility to do it because he was dead.

He lied to Bejita because Fusion was the safer way to kill Evil Buu, and he has to convince Bejita to fuse.

But why didn't he choose to use Fusion or Potara against Pure Boo? I assume you believe that Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo, right? If Goku could beat Evil Boo on his own, why would he choose to use the Potara (it was his original option) and merge with Vegeta forever? Why didn't he choose the same against the strongest (in your opinion, I assume) Pure Boo?