New Tenkaichi 2 Performance

[ZeroAnnihilated]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnJSVoFG-aA

Thought you guys would enjoy. Let me know. =)

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Zero on Kanzenshuu, now I've seen everything!

Excellent work, your dodges always make me feel off for being best with the Wii Remote in the Wii version of game; you can do most everything well, but I still don't quite get how movement without lock-on works with nun-chuck dashing. Maybe I missed the particular tutorial that covered it, but I had no idea you could reset a downed opponent to the standing position with a tap the way you did around :56. What did I miss.

But on that B3 vs T2 project; if so many of the best players are in different parts of the world, how will the testing be done if the best of the best playing each other won't necessarily be an option?

[Ajay]

Seeing that makes me strongly reconsider my stance on the over the shoulder fighting games in the series.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

Zero on Kanzenshuu, now I've seen everything!

Excellent work, your dodges always make me feel off for being best with the Wii Remote in the Wii version of game; you can do most everything well, but I still don't quite get how movement without lock-on works with nun-chuck dashing. Maybe I missed the particular tutorial that covered it, but I had no idea you could reset a downed opponent to the standing position with a tap the way you did around :56. What did I miss.

But on that B3 vs T2 project; if so many of the best players are in different parts of the world, how will the testing be done if the best of the best playing each other won't necessarily be an option?

1. I had no idea this place existed. There are apparently a lot of DBZ based forums that I was simply unaware of. I'm always open to talk Tenkaichi so I definitely had nothing against this place.

2. I do appreciate the feedback. This particular performance was coming off of a retirement. I was wanting to see where my skills currently stand, thought the viewers would also like to see it. There were some very sloppy moments, but nothing that killed the performance.

3. I've never played the Wii, so I actually have no idea what limitations the system puts on the game. I can give a general description of what commands are being used (Such as "Dash" instead of "X") but beyond that, success would stem greatly from your training. I'm currently working on a new FAQ (re-write). The original was over 100 pages long while only 10% - 20% was dedicated to the basics. The re-write switched from basics to advanced at page 58. Very detailed, more based on universal terminology such as "dash", "Step-In", etc. Any terminology that you don't recognize will be explained, such as "Approximal Focal Adhesion". Some concepts of the 3D fighter of Tenkaichi have never been discussed in gaming to the extend that many 2d fighters have, so some aspects of the Tenkaichi series are not even mentioned, nor named at all. Gotta start somewhere.

4. Resetting a downed opponent depends on the character you (the player) are using and to a separate degree, the recovery time of the opponent. This is also explained in the re-write as well. I'm trying to get it done as fast as possible while remaining as accurate and professional as possible. Some characters possess the ability to pick an opponent straight off the ground and to his/her feet by means of the Charged Dashing Melee while others (like SSJ2 Teen Gohan) must rely on timing with the opponent's recovery. Ultimately, one would be required to test different characters to see which works best for the given situation.

5. Budokai 3 vs Tenkaichi 2... This is not based on players fighting each other. That would be impossible to decide which game requires more technical skill. I'm not completely sure how informed you are in relation to the B3 vs T2 drama but that's become more of a fun project than anything else. A fun project... that others will enjoy as well.

I'll try to explain while obtaining as little drama as possible. There has been a big conflict between Budokai players and Tenkaichi players for a while. For a long time, I ignored the drama because I personally feel that neither side ever listens to the other side anyway. However, there is one thing that has remained a fair constant: Tenkaichi players seem more willing to acknowledge the skill required for Budokai gaming. Budokai players are far less willing to acknowledge the skill required for Tenkaichi gaming. This alone... still not worth standing up and saying anything. BUT, I had been receiving messages; links to UnderlordTico's conversations with other players. Such conversations would consist of his claims that he had mastered the Tenkaichi series and that they didn't require very much skill at all. Ultimately, I ignored it for a while... then got fed up. Decided to make a video to call him out. I admit, I think I went a little overboard with it, but I blame the music (it kinda grabbed me, lol). Personally, I don't really care if he likes the Tenkaichi series or not. BUT to claim that he stands among the other great Tenkaichi players... and then makes a claim like that... very insulting. You say you are a big Tenkaichi 2 player, yourself? How many hours did you spend trying to perfect your favorite techniques? Think about all of the techniques included in the game on the advanced level. Again... how many hours?

So... the new project was going to be based on emphasizing how much technical skill is involved in Tenkaichi 2. BUT, I then had an epiphany. Budokai players won't really care about that anyway. So, why not bring their game to the spotlight as well?

Finally, the project won't be a fighter vs fighter concept (As T2 players would win at T2 and B3 players would win at B3). Instead, it will be considered on the volume of technical skill requirement for advanced game-play: Budokai 3 vs Tenkaichi 2. This shouldn't prove which "player" is better at their game, but it will at least open some eyes.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I found Kanzenshuu by total accident too, I know the feeling.

2. I do appreciate the feedback. This particular performance was coming off of a retirement. I was wanting to see where my skills currently stand, thought the viewers would also like to see it. There were some very sloppy moments, but nothing that killed the performance.

I agree with the top comment on the video; once you learn something to the degree you have. I've been following your channel intermittently for the past year and half or so (I actually have a download of the original "Flawless" that I've shown to a couples friends!), though I don't have a YouTube account myself, but I do know at least some of what you've been working on and detailing from some of your video tutorials.

3. I've never played the Wii, so I actually have no idea what limitations the system puts on the game. I can give a general description of what commands are being used (Such as "Dash" instead of "X") but beyond that, success would stem greatly from your training. I'm currently working on a new FAQ (re-write). The original was over 100 pages long while only 10% - 20% was dedicated to the basics. The re-write switched from basics to advanced at page 58.

The only thing the Wii Remote changes from a high-technique perspective is that, as I said, the nunchuck is used for dashing. This works perfectly for step-ins, nunchuck reads them every time, but ended up dissuading me from learning about space control and flying around and behind opponents; that and the fact that all you really need to beat the A.I. on any difficulty is a relentless melee offensive with the occasionally teleport to get behind them when you don't want to break guards. Energy attacks use the pointer and controller thrusts, which also work very well but probably not with tournament precision, but those are less important anyway. All in all it was an excellently thought out launch port for the Wii, and quite honestly it gave me a lot of hope for how third parties could adapt existing game formulas for the console; I mean,if Spike could make something this responsive and genuinely intuitive in a month, larger devs have no excuse.

Of course, most critical of all is that the game has Classic and Gamecube controller options, in which case the game becomes the PS2 version, particularly with the Classic Pro, which was explicitly designed by Capcom to imitate it for Monster Hunter 3- though still using letter-named buttons. Now I'll need to check your FAQ again when I have the time; I believe I looked over it a while back, but didn't have my T2 game disc on me.

5. Budokai 3 vs Tenkaichi 2... This is not based on players fighting each other. That would be impossible to decide which game requires more technical skill. I'm not completely sure how informed you are in relation to the B3 vs T2 drama but that's become more of a fun project than anything else. A fun project... that others will enjoy as well.

I know the story, I've actually been following Tico for roughly the same amount of time I've been following you, although it should be told again here for anyone interested by out of the loop. Didn't the GameFaqs discussion bring to light that Tico stopped playing T3 in 2009, but advanced Tenkaichi play as you and others defined it didn't really come into being until the following year? However that falls.

[quote="ZeroAnnihilated"So... the new project was going to be based on emphasizing how much technical skill is involved in Tenkaichi 2. BUT, I then had an epiphany. Budokai players won't really care about that anyway. So, why not bring their game to the spotlight as well?

Finally, the project won't be a fighter vs fighter concept (As T2 players would win at T2 and B3 players would win at B3). Instead, it will be considered on the volume of technical skill requirement for advanced game-play: Budokai 3 vs Tenkaichi 2. This shouldn't prove which "player" is better at their game, but it will at least open some eyes.[/quote]

I wasn't referring to B3 players and T2 players playing against each other at each others games, rather that having multiple really good players of each game playing each other would be an asset to highlighting each game's technical skill, in a "see how it's done" sort of way.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

I wasn't referring to B3 players and T2 players playing against each other at each others games, rather that having multiple really good players of each game playing each other would be an asset to highlighting each game's technical skill, in a "see how it's done" sort of way.

I do understand this concept and I would definitely be interested in the possibility. In fact, I've always enjoyed the idea of bringing all the great players of DBZ games together as a means of a possible tournament. BUT, it is very unlikely that such an event will ever take place.

The entertainment value of such an event pushed aside, the concept is still based on measuring aspects beyond the technical aspect of Tenkaichi. For example: I can explain the technical aspect of "Technique X" and measure its difficulty by the timing and control required just to perform the technique (offensively or defensively). Performing the technique in a high level battle is based on the tactical aspect of the game. Of course, technical and tactical do coincide at times, but as the comparison is based on the technical aspect of the games, tactic at its base must not be considered.

If you would like further detail on the matter, I can explain in regards to B3 vs T2. BUT, it might spark an argument with Budokai defenders.

Ultimately, I don't need other great players to play against in order to explain the difficulty and proper usage of a given technique... but I do agree that it would be fun to see.

About the advanced techniques regarding the Wii system... I understand. The FAQ re-write isn't finished yet, but once it is, I'll be sure to post it here at one point or another.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

2. I do appreciate the feedback. This particular performance was coming off of a retirement. I was wanting to see where my skills currently stand, thought the viewers would also like to see it. There were some very sloppy moments, but nothing that killed the performance.

Wait, this perfect came after a long break? What level were the computers at because god damn...


Also, I have to say nice job using after image to dodge Adult Gohan's explosive wave. I didn't know a trick like that was possible; I usually just try to run backwards.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

Wait, this perfect came after a long break? What level were the computers at because god damn...


Also, I have to say nice job using after image to dodge Adult Gohan's explosive wave. I didn't know a trick like that was possible; I usually just try to run backwards.

The computers are always on the strongest setting. I would probably play worse if they were easier. Glad you liked it though.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan doesn't have after image, the dodge you saw was completely manual defensive teleportation. Difficult at first, but gets easy with training. There ARE a lot of tricks in the game though. Very challenging, very fun.

Thanks for the feedback. =)

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

The computers are always on the strongest setting. I would probably play worse if they were easier. Glad you liked it though.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan doesn't have after image, the dodge you saw was completely manual defensive teleportation. Difficult at first, but gets easy with training. There ARE a lot of tricks in the game though. Very challenging, very fun.

Thanks for the feedback. =)

When you say manual telephoning do you mean left and right plus O, or am I missing something?

Also I have to ask, Why BT2 instead of 3? Is three less technical? I've always preferred it over 2 because of the fact that there wasn't a lock on like there was in 1 and 2. Also I was always under the impression(unless memory is failing me right now) that 3 offered more especially in the defense department.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

When you say manual telephoning do you mean left and right plus O, or am I missing something?

Also I have to ask, Why BT2 instead of 3? Is three less technical? I've always preferred it over 2 because of the fact that there wasn't a lock on like there was in 1 and 2. Also I was always under the impression(unless memory is failing me right now) that 3 offered more especially in the defense department.

Question 1: Manual Defensive Teleportation: Pressing "guard" at the very instance of the oncoming attack for defensive teleportation. So yes, you have it right.

Question 2: I have nothing against Tenkaichi 3 at all. I think it is a great game and I absolutely loved playing it while I did. As far as technicality goes... I believe Tenkaichi 3 is far more technical than Tenkaichi 2 on a BASIC level. So I understand the attraction. But as far as ADVANCED technicality goes... I believe Tenkaichi 2 has a lot more potential for technical exploitation. That's how it is understood as of right NOW. Tenkaichi 3's advanced technical aspects are still growing. There is a lot more to offer in Tenkaichi 2 and Tenkaichi 3 than first meets the eye. This is also one of the reasons why a lot of Tenkaichi pro players have a hard time enjoying the newer games. The creators spent a lot more time on treating the consumer with graphics and noob-friendly fighting engines. Now, this is what I've heard so I may be wrong. In fact, the newer games haven't been out nearly as long as T2 and T3. The advanced nature of the newer games may simply need a bit of exploration for proper exploitation. BUT, as it currently stands... I have yet to see another DBZ game be exploited on the same terms as Tenkaichi 2. Definitely MY favorite, but for my own reasons.

The defensive system... hard to explain. I believe the creators made it easier to defend in Tenkaichi 3 in some aspects, but made it harder to defend in others. Not to mention, the advanced aspect of Tenkaichi 2 has also uncovered more advanced means of defense that have yet to be incorporated in advanced T3 as well. So it depends on how you look at it. I personally like the idea that one has to work hard to present an impressive offense, just as one must work hard to present an impressive defense. Now pay attention because the definition tends to get lost in translation. Consider the following: There is a difference between presenting an impressive offense and a "strong" offense. Just as there is a difference between presenting an impressive defense and a "strong" defense. Now, an impressive offense usually exists as a strong offense just as an impressive defense exists as a strong defense. However, there is such a thing as having a strong offense or defense, without showing impressive game-play. This is also the difference between being a strong player, and a great player. A player that has a strong offense or defense may settle, thinking he/she has no need to improve. A player that reaches for greatness will always look for ways to improve beyond simply having a strong offense or defense. The more advanced the mechanical system, the more opportunity for the player to become great.

In case you have yet to explore the advancements of Tenkaichi 2, I'll point out a small part of the video that gets overlooked all the time to the untrained eye. Check the video at 0:31... Ultimate Gohan reaches forward and attempts to grab SSJ2 Teen Gohan. However, SSJ2 Teen Gohan moves out of the way and to the opponent's back. This single defensive technique required 5 buttons in extremely tight succession, all within the window of evading the grab. This technique is also possible in Tenkaichi 3, but not many players have caught on to this advancement yet. As I said, T3 advancement is still growing.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Awesome breakdown. Thank you!