How strong was Dabura?

[Fionordequester]

But it seems like this is a never-ending argument going in circles, so can I suggest a simple compromise? Gohan was a weakened/false/half SSj2, meaning the sparks didn't show up, he wasn't nearly at the level of a true SSj2, and folks in this tier could be taken care of my a well-combat-suited SSj1. That way we can both accept the Daiz statement that he was (a sort of) SSj2, and we can also accept that true, fully-attained SSj2's do in fact have the sparks.

Sound reasonable to me, and perfectly logical. Heck, Marco Polo, one of the posters in the "Why doesn't Gohan's hair stand up?" thread suggested something interesting. According to his theory, when Gohan was an SSJ1 as a kid, his hair didn't stand straight up, and according to his theory...

Before the name "SSJ2" was invented, the "SSJ2" form was just meant to be Gohan's true SSJ form, with all his power unleashed. The form shown in the first post is just a repressed form caused by Gohan's lack of fighting spirit and pacific nature.


That's how I see it anyway.

So perhaps is the same case here. Otherwise, I just don't see how Gohan could possibly stand up to Dabura, who was stated "to be around Dabura's strength (whether weaker or stronger, he wasn't far off), and then later stated to be "a lot tougher than he thought", when he couldn't handle Perfect Cell at a time where he was explicitly stated to be stronger than he was against Dabura.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I think Dabura is in general around Cell's power he used against Goku. This would be the power Goku was most familiar with.

I don't think Dabura is quite as strong as that level of Cell though. I generally think Teen Gohan is a by weaker than Goku and Dabura is slightly weaker than Gohan.

Enough to be considered a real threat 7 years ago but weak enough to consider him laughable nowadays.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura, why is it still being debatable?

Because none of that justifies why Gohan would blatantly go SSJ2 at the budokai but ignore it against Dabura. Unless you want to speculate that Dabura is somehow weaker than Perfect Cell as a whole which can be a conclusion that Gohan was SSJ1 instead of SSJ2 from that viewpoint. If you want to interpret it as suppressed perfect Cell, then it still doesn't change the fact that Gohan still needs SSJ2 to go up against him. Gohan very well knows how to go SSJ2 and that's a fact. He questioned Kibito if he wants to see him go one step further than SSJ. That's not out of anger, that's out of curiosity.
Transforming is transforming period. Gohan's issue was not trying to get to SSJ2, but to access his full power through anger. I am also well aware of SSJ1 Goku (Boo saga) being weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan. We can't conclude how much stronger SSJ2 Goku is to him though because it wasn't stated. All that was stated was that "he was even greater than the power Gohan had back then" which doesn't suggest at all that Goku was just a bit stronger or even a lot stronger. All we know is that he is stronger. But I choose to believe a lot stronger and that SSJ Goku is now in Perfect Cell's league at the very least.

That's how I see it and you can believe differently if you want. I take Gohan looking SSJ1 as a mistake from Toriyama. He's only human. As far as I'm concerned, the Daizenshuu contradicts itself in this part. It says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, then another line says that he was SSJ. So we will never truly know.

[Mjb1985]

Although there are some interesting variables that can be brought up why Gohan being a Ssj doesn't make perfect sense, all in all it seems to be the proper answer.

There is a lot of evidence that Dabura just isn't that strong and him being compared to the version of Cell that Goku was most acquainted with seems to be our best option. It's nowhere near perfect though and the writing is poorly done for this segment.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Nothing justifies it? How about SSJ Gohan and Dabura are practically equal so there's no reason to go SSJ2 .

[Mjb1985]

And it's quite possible Gohan is actually superior to Dabura as a Super Saiyan. I personally give Gohan a slight edge in terms of raw power.

[Draken]

So why not go SSJ2 and kick Dabura's butt? O_O

I don't have a preference either way myself, just playing Devil's Advocate.

[Kaboom]

I'm gonna toss out my favored explanation again: Gohan never practiced with Super Saiyan 2, so he can't just snap his fingers and transform into it at will like Goku and Vegeta can.

Instead, he would need some amount of time and effort to force himself up into the form, like when he did it at the Tournament. Dabra would likely not allow him that luxury, especially if Gohan already got the battle going at Super Saiyan 1. Utilizing anger would serve as a shortcut into the form, but we know Gohan was having trouble in that regard.

[Draken]

I'm gonna toss out my favored explanation again: Gohan never practiced with Super Saiyan 2, so he can't just snap his fingers and transform into it at will like Goku and Vegeta can.

Instead, he would need some amount of time and effort to force himself up into the form, like when he did it at the Tournament. Dabra would likely not allow him that luxury, especially if Gohan already got the battle going at Super Saiyan 1. Utilizing anger would serve as a shortcut into the form, but we know Gohan was having trouble in that regard.

Why not power up while they were stopping to meditate or something?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Dabra would likely not allow him that luxury, especially if Gohan already got the battle going at Super Saiyan 1.

But Dabra viewed Gohan as scum, so if Gohan had said him "I'll show you my true power now!", I'm sure that Dabra would underestimate him and would allowed him to do it.

[Kaboom]

Why not power up while they were stopping to meditate or something?

What do you mean? When did anyone stop to meditate?

But Dabra viewed Gohan as scum, so if Gohan had said him "I'll show you my true power now!", I'm sure that Dabra would underestimate him and would allowed him to do it.

He also thought Boo was a pushover, while Gohan realized he wasn't, and thought that Goku going Super Saiyan was "just glowing." I've never considered he or Bobbidi to be good judges of power, if they can actually sense it at all. So you could say it's half that and half typical villain arrogance.

[Zephyr]

Why not power up while they were stopping to meditate or something?

What do you mean? When did anyone stop to meditate?

I believe he's referring to when Dabura was meditating before the fight, which indeed would have allowed Gohan ample time to power up.

However, Gohan is a complete novice, so he probably didn't even think of that.

[Mjb1985]

Dabura's power estimates about himself in relation to other people is ridiculous. He's one of the most arrogant, clueless characters in the whole series.

[Fionordequester]

So how do we know Mr. Toriyama wasn't just going back and forth on how he wanted to draw SSJ2 Gohan? Kaboom and others themselves have said that he was changing his design right around the time the Budokai Tenkaichi popped up, so how do we know he didn't just draw SSJ2 Gohan with sparks, then conclude "hmm...that makes him look too strong. He's supposed to be out of practice, so perhaps I ought to not include them"?

I don't think his designs being different from the anime designs would have stopped him either, or else why would he draw Super Saiyan as having a white aura in the History of Trunks manga special?

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's bull shit. Toriyama uses the same design for SSJ2 throughout the entire series.

[Fionordequester]

That's bull shit. Toriyama uses the same design for SSJ2 throughout the entire series.

You say he changed the way he drew SSJ1 Gohan according to your theory, so why wouldn't it be possible that he changed how he drew SSJ2 Gohan as well?

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's bull shit. Toriyama uses the same design for SSJ2 throughout the entire series.

You say he changed the way he drew SSJ1 Gohan according to your theory, so why wouldn't it be possible that he changed how he drew SSJ2 Gohan as well?

Maybe because it never changed . SSJ also never had it's design changed. FPSSJ is a seperate form.

[Fionordequester]

Maybe because it never changed . SSJ also never had it's design changed. FPSSJ is a seperate form.

Go look at the manga again where Gohan went SSJ1 against Goten. You'll see that he's drawn with two bangs instead of just one. So that means, if he was SSJ1 against Dabura, Mr. Toriyama changed his mind about how he wanted to draw SSJ1 Gohan, right?

[TheMightyOzaru]

He's in a suppressed/rested state while fighting Goten. He has one bang when he is a FPSSJ.

[Fionordequester]

He's in a suppressed/rested state while fighting Goten. He has one bang when he is a FPSSJ.

Actually he has like, three bangs as a FPSSJ. His whole hair-style was different then.