Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mjb1985]

What would put Ssj Gotenks > Ssj3 Gotenks in gag feats?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I've started working on a list where the base Saiyans surpassed Freeza just cuz. I'll post in when I'm done.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I'm considering trying out one tonight. You still aren't interested in doing it from Dragonball no scouter logic? I would like to have someone to go over probably from the beginning until the 22nd Budokai. I could probably do that soon.

[RandomGuy96]

What would put Ssj Gotenks > Ssj3 Gotenks in gag feats?

SS Gotenks' headbutt did more damage to Buu then SS3 Gotenks'.

I already have a base saiyans > Freeza list. It's my old list. Most of the bloat came from the massive massive gaps implied from the Mecha Arc to the Cell Games. Imperfect Cell tanking the Light Grenade is probably the biggest example.

I like my new one better... it's cleaner, less bloated, and follows the biggest hint we got about post Freeza power levels.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's working so far. I'm doing it just cuz.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Never mind, I'm just done with power levels. They honestly just take all the enjoyment out of the series.

[RandomGuy96]

Bye bye.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Bye bye.

It honestly feels pretty good being free of all the constant thinking about people in numbers . I'd just prefer if we got a Daizenshuu 8 that gave us power levels for the other arcs.

[RandomGuy96]

Wouldn't we all? Hell, we wouldn't even need a lot of power levels. Just for like five to ten random characters, then we can just guess everything around them. But at least Toriyama indirectly said base saiyans < Freeza recently. That's at least pretty helpful.

Anyway... my very first power level list was operating under the assumption that the Daizenshuu statement that SS2 Vegeta > Super Saiyan Gotenks was reliable. My levels have gotten lower since then and of course my placements are much different. Here's just a little mini-list, assuming that statement really was true:

Piccolo- 1,800,000,000
--IQ- 56

Goku- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 5,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 10,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 40,000,000,000
--Math Grade- 34%

Fat Buu- 26,000,000,000
--Angered to the limit- 70,000,000,000
--Good half- 25,000,000,000
--Evil half- 45,000,000,000

Gotenks (pre)- 180,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 9,000,000,000

Super Buu- 70,000,000,000
--Buutenks- 156,000,000,000
--Buuccolo- 74,000,000,000
--Buuhan- 185,000,000,000

Gotenks (post)- 210,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 10,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 84,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan- 111,000,000,000

Vegetto- 20,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 1,000,000,000,000

Kid Buu- 45,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed- 78,000,000,000

Good Buu- 36,000,000,000

South Kaioshin- 33,000,000,000
West Kaioshin- 5,000,000,000
North Kaioshin- 4,000,000,000
Dai Kaioshin- 3,000,000,000
East Kaioshin- 2,400,000,000

If only it weren't for those damn SS Gotenks > Fat Buu statements. This would be my main list otherwise. Oh, and some things:

South Kaioshin managed to put up a struggle against Buu (like the anime, except maybe in the 'real' fight he used some special techniques or at least amplified attacks), making Buu deem him 'worthy' of absorption. He was normal addition. Dai Kaioshin, however, had a different effect on Buu; basically Ozaru's division theory. In this case he divided Buff Buu by the first digits of his own power level, i.e. 3.0.

When Fatty split, the unnatural way he split, as well as the fact that his good was still dominant, resulted in an uneven split, where Evil Buu had all of the Kid Buu ki and a portion of the Kaioshin ki that he couldn't use, while Fatty had the rest of the Kaioshin power. When they combined to make Super Buu, a chunk of the South Kaioshin ki and all of the Dai Kaioshin ki still remained unusable to Super Buu due to the Dai Kaioshin's influence. However, when they split the second time, Buu's body had basically automatically 'put' the unusable Kaioshin ki into Good Buu, along with the actually usable Kaioshin ki that contributed to making Super Buu so strong. Without the Kaioshin impurities, Super Buu reverted to Kid Buu instead of Evil Buu (who is Kid Buu + the same unusable Kaioshin power Super Buu had, as represented by his gloves, cape, and seemingly greater intellect), and Good Buu got the rest of the Kaioshin ki.

[Kaboom]

I'd just prefer if we got a Daizenshuu 8 that gave us power levels for the other arcs.

We did get a "Daizenshuu #8." It was all about trading cards, though.

It can be tough to keep finding enjoyment in making up power levels. The trick is to do it for the sake of creativity and fun rather than to seek approval or so-called "accuracy."

[TheMightyOzaru]

Fair enough but I don't see a point in dabbling into numbers if I'm not trying to be accurate.

[Mjb1985]

If its not fun dont do it.

Random I think Ssj Gotenks is pretty close to Super Buu in the Rosat. I don't think Buu shows his true colors until he tries to escape the Rosat.

[RandomGuy96]

A power up is never noted or shown though. It's just a gag feat.

[Mjb1985]

While power ups are generally noted, I don't think it's necessary here. There is clear confusion about Buu's level, most likely due to his ki being strange.

Super Buu's level has different interpreted levels imo.

1) Initial power

Piccolo is unsure if Gotenks can take this level. This is a level that Goku can feel from Kaioshin's planet.

2) Super Buu flies up to the Rosat

Only then does Piccolo realize that Gotenks stands no chance. Kuririn doesn't understand because he believes Gotenks is supposed to be the strongest but Piccolo scolds him. This is the same power that he fights Gotenks with in the Rosat. I'm going pretend Base Gotenks Post comment is a throwaway and apply it to Ssj Gotenks Post having a chance.

3) His maximum effort. Used to escape the Rosat and fight Super Gotenks.

That's generally how I view him nowadays.

[RandomGuy96]

While power ups are generally noted, I don't think it's necessary here. There is clear confusion about Buu's level, most likely due to his ki being strange.

Super Buu's level has different interpreted levels imo.

1) Initial power

Piccolo is unsure if Gotenks can take this level. This is a level that Goku can feel from Kaioshin's planet.

2) Super Buu flies up to the Rosat

Only then does Piccolo realize that Gotenks stands no chance. Kuririn doesn't understand because he believes Gotenks is supposed to be the strongest but Piccolo scolds him. This is the same power that he fights Gotenks with in the Rosat. I'm going pretend Base Gotenks Post comment is a throwaway and apply it to Ssj Gotenks Post having a chance.

3) His maximum effort. Used to escape the Rosat and fight Super Gotenks.

That's generally how I view him nowadays.

I think he has different levels too, but the thing is, none of this is actually NOTED. It's all speculation. The only concrete manga evidence just has SS Gotenks outperforming SS3 Gotenks. Then again feats like this also have Mr.Satan dodging attacks from Kid Buu and surviving being punched and sent flying through a mountain with no harm and then later being nearly killed by a bullet that he was unable to dodge. Which is why I don't think we should take things like base Gotenks post > SS Gotenks pre or base Gotenks pre > SS2 Vegeta seriously.

Speaking of the Buu Saga: does anyone have a more, for lack of a better word, "stylish" way of mathematically showing Kid Buu's increase from absorbing South Kaioshin and decrease from absorbing Dai Kaioshin? I was going to go with Ozaru's "he multiplies or divides by the first two digits of their power level" buuuuut that has two problems: one, Fat Buu ends up stronger than Kid Buu, and two, Buff Buu ends up ludicrously haxxed because of where I have South Kaioshin (South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin = Good Buu).

I'm probably going to redo my list one more time. The gaps will change a bit, but mostly I want to scale it lower so SS3 Goku (Buu Saga) ends up at 32,000,000,000 since I don't think Bills would say that Goku just couldn't beat Freeza if he were as close to him as I have him now. Also because I like the base saiyans being fodder to Freeza, and might want to fit in the Daiz statement that kid Gohan = teen Gohan < either enraged Gohan, which requires a bigger jump in power from the birth of Cell to the Cell Games, since Gohan was above everyone there even without rage.

[TheMightyOzaru]

. But at least Toriyama indirectly said base saiyans > Freeza recently. That's at least pretty helpful.

When did he indirectly state that ?

[RandomGuy96]

...in the movie? I say indirectly because while he didn't say that, he almost certainly wrote or at least approved that line.

EDIT: Ah... typo.

[TheMightyOzaru]

...in the movie? I say indirectly because while he didn't say that, he almost certainly wrote or at least approved that line.

EDIT: Ah... typo.

Oh you meant for that to be the other way around .

[Mjb1985]

Yes Random, generally all of my posts are going to be speculation. I don't bother debating with concrete factual and non factual stuff because that's clear cut. But generally any discussion that you get into with me will include my thoughts in a speculative manner.

My posts are riddled with " I think " and " imo ". These are my opinions, these are my theories etc. There is hardly a factual thought in there, just interesting ways to make things work. So that's my opinion on the Super Buu matter.

[RandomGuy96]

Yes Random, generally all of my posts are going to be speculation. I don't bother debating with concrete factual and non factual stuff because that's clear cut. But generally any discussion that you get into with me will include my thoughts in a speculative manner.

My posts are riddled with " I think " and " imo ". These are my opinions, these are my theories etc. There is hardly a factual thought in there, just interesting ways to make things work. So that's my opinion on the Super Buu matter.

Of course. I was just explaining my opinion of why the Gotenks gags shouldn't be taken seriously. Then you get SS3 Goku <<< base Gotenks <<<<<<< SS3 Gotenks << SS Gotenks < SS3 Gotenks, lol...