How strong was Dabura?

[Mjb1985]

I don't think anything like that is ever suggested. I feel that people are just trying to make the supplementary information work when imo it's not necessary here.

Dabura had zero issues with Kaioshin being around. Kaioshin was deathly afraid of Dabura. Dabura does not have the traits that people brought out beyond their power normally have.

Kaioshin and Dabura are unlikely able to sense each other anyway, just going with the flow of the story gives me the impression Dabura is head and shoulders above Kaioshin and has always been.

I don't know if I consider Dabura a mortal considering he's been around for hundreds of years.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, but like I said, the Makaisohin being inferior to the Kaioshin doesn't have to mean every single Makaioshin < the weakest Kaioshin, but rather average Makaioshin < average Kaioshin.

I don't think anything like that is ever suggested. I feel that people are just trying to make the supplementary information work when imo it's not necessary here.

Dabura had zero issues with Kaioshin being around. Kaioshin was deathly afraid of Dabura. Dabura does not have the traits that people brought out beyond their power normally have.

Kaioshin and Dabura are unlikely able to sense each other anyway, just going with the flow of the story gives me the impression Dabura is head and shoulders above Kaioshin and has always been.

I don't know if I consider Dabura a mortal considering he's been around for hundreds of years.

Of course it's not necessary, he's never even implied to be a Makaioshin.

Roshi's also been alive for hundreds of years. So has Shen. Kami. Guru. Possibly Freeza. Et cetera. It's a pretty common thing in Dragon Ball.

[Mjb1985]

True. So Kaioshins and Dabura are mortals with extreme life spans then?

[RandomGuy96]

Kaioshins are definitely mortal, as Old Kai was going to die of old age. Dabura could just be a mortal who lives a really long time, since we've seen that before. Maybe the fountain of youth is in the Demon Realm? Who knows.

[Kamiccolo9]

He's a demon. Maybe demon's just have really really long lifespans?

Do we know how long Garlic or Garlic Jr. lived (before immortality, of course)? It's filler, but that may be the closest we can get.

[Mjb1985]

Yea so mortals with extreme lifespans. Amazing how Kaioshin doesn't know Dabura has joined Badibi while Dabura has been with him for at least 300 years. That's some god right there huh?

[RandomGuy96]

I don't even think it's fair to call the Kaioshin gods at this point. I mean what do they even do?

[Mjb1985]

They do have God eyes. Lol. So yea pretty crappy gods.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't even think it's fair to call the Kaioshin gods at this point. I mean what do they even do?

Well, according to the new movie, they have god ki. I guess that's all it takes.

[Mjb1985]

Dabura is treated like a joke throughout the entire saga. I just don't see Cell getting that same type of treatment. At all. Cell is still a beast power in the Buu Saga imo.

[RandomGuy96]

No, he's not. Vegeta just says that he can "manage something" against Dabura, and that he's strong, but not unbeatable, while Gohan damn near craps himself when Fat Buu powers up and beats him, despite having already established Fat Buu as someone equal to his enraged SS2 self.

[Mjb1985]

Yes he is. Everyone agrees that they will easily beat Dabura and he's not a threat. 7 years ago be would have been a threat, but they are beyond him now.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When Kaioshin tells them they'd have to wipe Dabra out if they want to return Krillin and Piccolo to normal, Goku basically says "Lol, is that all? This will be easy!", which already shows he's not being taken seriously.

[Mjb1985]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Keep in mind Dabura being easy does not lead Goku and Vegeta to conclude that the other has Super Saiyan 2. It's safe to say they meant their Super Saiyan forms would handle Dabura with ease.

[dprez]

I... I have nothing left to say anymore. This is abso-freakin'-lutely ridiculous and borderline shameful. The truth is right in front of everyone's eyes, but if people want to keep pointing to the color blue and claiming that it's actually red, fine. Go nuts. I'm going to take another whack at staying out of this unless I'm needed as a mod.

I am incredibly surprised that you of all people are acting this way. It is perfectly valid to see Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2. It is NOT anything close to calling blue red.

Really? Even when there aren't any statements or artwork in the manga that show that he is?

Kaboom is right guys...

[Saiga]

Yeah, but like I said, the Makaisohin being inferior to the Kaioshin doesn't have to mean every single Makaioshin < the weakest Kaioshin, but rather average Makaioshin < average Kaioshin.

I've always wondered how the quote was meant to be interpreted, though. Mainly the "currently" part. Does that just mean the current line-up of of Makaioshin is weaker than Kibitoshin? Either way, I don't think Dabra would fit the "currently" part of that statement since he's dead and all.

@dprez There are statements in the manga that support him being a Super Saiyan 2. Kibito not seeing his tremendous power despite seeing SS2 Gohan, Dabra being compared to Cell as a underestimation, no-one ever hinting that Gohan still has SS2 up his sleeve when they're disappointed by his performance against Dabra, etc. As for the art, Super Saiyan 2 needing to have sparks is nothing more than a theory. Well supported or not, it's not a fact no matter how much you screech that it is.

[Mjb1985]

There are also a half a dozen statements that suggests Gohan isn't a Ssj2 and that side has no art to back it up.

[dprez]

@dprez There are statements in the manga that support him being a Super Saiyan 2. Kibito not seeing his tremendous power despite seeing SS2 Gohan, Dabra being compared to Cell as a underestimation, no-one ever hinting that Gohan still has SS2 up his sleeve when they're disappointed by his performance against Dabra, etc. As for the art, Super Saiyan 2 needing to have sparks is nothing more than a theory. Well supported or not, it's not a fact no matter how much you screech that it is.

Kaioshin was speaking of the over all abilities of the three saiyans that Kibito didn't get to see. Kaioshin also heard Goku tell Gohan to get angry, that way he can't lose to anybody. He witnessed Gohan fight Dabura while not at full strength, meaning he has even more power hidden, and Gohan's comments on how he should be able to handle Boo if he uses all his power, basically everything that the saiyans did after Kibito was killed completely stunned Kaioshin. Sure Kibito saw Gohans Ssj2 power, but he never got to see the saiyans in action, and hear them boast about how easy this challenge that Kibito and Kaioshin feared so much, actually was to them. Kibito saw SSj2 Gohan. Kibito didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. I can see how you would take that as literally meaning Kaioshin saw a Ssj2 Gohan stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan Kibito saw, but I do not believe this is the case. That rather vague quote cannot be taken so literal.

Kaioshin's quote does not automatically mean Gohan was Ssj2 against Boo. Kaioshin knows of Gohan's enormous hidden power at this point. He heard Vegeta and Goku speak of how he was stronger back in the day, and how his anger could erupt him to a level of power far beyond what Kaioshin was witnessing. He now understands that these saiyans have a ton of power in reserve, and Gohan possibly has the most. Really not even that, only because Goku is dead and Vegeta is evil, so his power is their only hope. All Kaioshin knows is that Gohan actually had power inside of him that could allow him to easily beat Dabura and challenge Fat Boo. Gohan never did either of these things so I don't know, I guess that's why Kaioshin is training Gohan with the Z sword.

Without any visual or more direct textual evidence during the time of Gohan's alleged Ssj2 appearance against Boo, it's hard to use that quote about the incredibly powerful saiyans to prove Gohan was Ssj2. Kibito didn't get to see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. He did see SSj2 Gohan, but he did not see him fight, nor get to understand his true capabilities. We also can't put to much faith in these guys ki sensing abilities. Even after seeing Ssj2 Gohan, they still feared the likes of Dabura and Pui Pui...

Taking into account those two quotes from Kaioshin, I see too much telling me he was just a regular SSj. Still incredibly powerful compared to Kaioshin and Kibito. Add in what Kaioshin learned of Gohan's true abilities, and the over all incredible powers of these saiyans, then what he says to Kibito makes perfect sense even if Gohan was not a Ssj2 against Boo's shell, which he does not appear to be.

[dbzfan7]

Ignoring sparks for SSJ2, doesn't SSJ2 have a consistent looking aura in the manga. Wouldn't that help settle things. In the anime SSJ/2 have the same aura for the most part while in the manga I noticed a difference.

[Saiga]

Kaioshin was speaking of the over all abilities of the three saiyans that Kibito didn't get to see. Kaioshin also heard Goku tell Gohan to get angry, that way he can't lose to anybody. He witnessed Gohan fight Dabura while not at full strength, meaning he has even more power hidden, and Gohan's comments on how he should be able to handle Boo if he uses all his power, basically everything that the saiyans did after Kibito was killed completely stunned Kaioshin. Sure Kibito saw Gohans Ssj2 power, but he never got to see the saiyans in action, and hear them boast about how easy this challenge that Kibito and Kaioshin feared so much, actually was to them. Kibito saw SSj2 Gohan. Kibito didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. I can see how you would take that as literally meaning Kaioshin saw a Ssj2 Gohan stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan Kibito saw, but I do not believe this is the case. That rather vague quote cannot be taken so literal.

Kaioshin's quote does not automatically mean Gohan was Ssj2 against Boo. Kaioshin knows of Gohan's enormous hidden power at this point. He heard Vegeta and Goku speak of how he was stronger back in the day, and how his anger could erupt him to a level of power far beyond what Kaioshin was witnessing. He now understands that these saiyans have a ton of power in reserve, and Gohan possibly has the most. Really not even that, only because Goku is dead and Vegeta is evil, so his power is their only hope. All Kaioshin knows is that Gohan actually had power inside of him that could allow him to easily beat Dabura and challenge Fat Boo. Gohan never did either of these things so I don't know, I guess that's why Kaioshin is training Gohan with the Z sword.

Without any visual or more direct textual evidence during the time of Gohan's alleged Ssj2 appearance against Boo, it's hard to use that quote about the incredibly powerful saiyans to prove Gohan was Ssj2. Kibito didn't get to see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. He did see SSj2 Gohan, but he did not see him fight, nor get to understand his true capabilities. We also can't put to much faith in these guys ki sensing abilities. Even after seeing Ssj2 Gohan, they still feared the likes of Dabura and Pui Pui...

Taking into account those two quotes from Kaioshin, I see too much telling me he was just a regular SSj. Still incredibly powerful compared to Kaioshin and Kibito. Add in what Kaioshin learned of Gohan's true abilities, and the over all incredible powers of these saiyans, then what he says to Kibito makes perfect sense even if Gohan was not a Ssj2 against Boo's shell, which he does not appear to be.

My mistake, I was under the impression that Kaioshin referred to Gohan by name. However, it does not change that he says the "3 Saiyans" which at least strongly implies that Gohan showed more than what Kibito has seen. And, I'm not trying to argue that Super Saiyan 2 is the only way. Just a valid possibility.