SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:50 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fat Buu becomes Super Buu just a couple of hours after Goku fights him. Neither Babidi nor Buu commented on Goku being dead. I doubt Buu even knows what it means; why would he? How many dead people does Buu hang out with?
And SSJ3 Goku was an ant compared to Super Buu. Not even worth his time.
Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki - there is no way he could have felt Goku's power after he left this plane of existance.
RandomGuy96 wrote:There's also Goku outright saying that he's no match for Super Buu's strength. That quote right there should end every debate on the subject. And yet, somehow, it doesn't.
Well, it depends on the context. There are a couple of explanations on this and I admit they aren't as obvious as taking the statement at face value, I just believe that Goku's action and other statements contradict this "misstatement."
Last edited by Axiom on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Axiom wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fat Buu becomes Super Buu just a couple of hours after Goku fights him. Neither Babidi nor Buu commented on Goku being dead. I doubt Buu even knows what it means; why would he? How many dead people does Buu hang out with?
And SSJ3 Goku was an ant compared to Super Buu. Not even worth his time.
Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki - there is no way he could have felt Goku's power after he left this plane of existance.
...So?
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:53 pm

Buutenks could. He sensed SS3 Goku when he showed up and even after he reverted to Super Buu he still considered Goku nothing to him. He continues to consider him just as weak as he previously thought, he doesn't stop and say "Now there's this OTHER guy who's beyond me? I must have really underestimated him". Goku is absolute trash and fodder in the Fusion Saga; Buu wouldn't even have to put in a bit of effort to flick his head off. Goku even flat out says he's nothing to Super Buu.

It's abundantly clear that Super Buu considers Goku a complete non threat.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:53 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Axiom wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fat Buu becomes Super Buu just a couple of hours after Goku fights him. Neither Babidi nor Buu commented on Goku being dead. I doubt Buu even knows what it means; why would he? How many dead people does Buu hang out with?
And SSJ3 Goku was an ant compared to Super Buu. Not even worth his time.
Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki - there is no way he could have felt Goku's power after he left this plane of existance.
...So?
How would he know how strong Goku was if he wasn't there? What, he's going to sense SSJ3 Goku while Goku rests in base form?

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:54 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Buutenks could. He sensed SS3 Goku when he showed up and even after he reverted to Super Buu he still considered Goku nothing to him. He continues to consider him just as weak as he previously thought, he doesn't stop and say "Now there's this OTHER guy who's beyond me? I must have really underestimated him". Goku is absolute trash and fodder in the Fusion Saga; Buu wouldn't even have to put in a bit of effort to flick his head off. Goku even flat out says he's nothing to Super Buu.
He's lying! Duh :roll:
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:55 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Buutenks could. He sensed SS3 Goku when he showed up and even after he reverted to Super Buu he still considered Goku nothing to him. He continues to consider him just as weak as he previously thought, he doesn't stop and say "Now there's this OTHER guy who's beyond me? I must have really underestimated him". Goku is absolute trash and fodder in the Fusion Saga; Buu wouldn't even have to put in a bit of effort to flick his head off. Goku even flat out says he's nothing to Super Buu.
Yes, and at this time Buutenks was vastly more powerful than either Goku OR Gohan.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:56 pm

...did you even read my post?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by PerfectFreeza » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:57 pm

Tell me, why didn't Goku kill Buucollo right on the spot, if he was stronger?
Rather than finish his task that he was granted a life to accomplish, he just says ''Gohan can beat you now!'' and reverts.
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:10 pm

PerfectFreeza wrote:Tell me, why didn't Goku kill Buucollo right on the spot, if he was stronger?
Rather than finish his task that he was granted a life to accomplish, he just says ''Gohan can beat you now!'' and reverts.
Well, to be fair - he doesn't actually say that

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”
This implies, no, outright states that Goku's plan was to fight this form of Buu head on with Gohan's help. If Gohan was massively stronger like has been suggested on this forum, Why would Goku rush into battle, just to get in his way? Goku believed that he could have managed at least something, and even the thought of fusion crossed his mind - which would be impossible if Gohan's power was substantially higher than Goku's.
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.
Gohan doesn't suffer from the stamina issues Goku does, and as we see later on, it's enough to give Goku issues. Again, Goku still believes that he could possibly be of some use in the fight, though he will no longer be needed, as " Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…"

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by PerfectFreeza » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:15 pm

He still doesn't kill Buu, which he should be able to do, according to you.
See the context.He was reckless and just wanted to help Gohan.
It's like Gohan wanting to help Piccolo against Cell.Gohan can suppress himself.
Even on his own means without fusion.
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:01 pm

PerfectFreeza wrote:He still doesn't kill Buu, which he should be able to do, according to you.
See the context.He was reckless and just wanted to help Gohan.
It's like Gohan wanting to help Piccolo against Cell.Gohan can suppress himself.
Even on his own means without fusion.
Supression apparrently has nothing to do with it. Goku can supress his power as well, but he must have been substantially stronger than the next strongest being in order for fusion not to be viable.

And Goku is powerful, no doubt about it, but outside of Fat-Buu, it's indicated that he's never used SSJ3 in battle. Why not let Gohan handle it?

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:02 pm

Below is probably every line that can tell us something about the difference between SS3 Gotenks & SS3 Goku. Tell me if I missed anything.
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.
Goku predicts that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to kill Innocent Boo. Since there is no way to know for sure, it is possible that he could be wrong, but since Goku is a very experienced fighter, and also knows how powerful Fusion is, SS Gotenks has to be not very far from Innocent Boo, even if he is weaker than him.
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Goku says that he probably wouldn't be able able to kill Innocent Boo, but later admits that he lied. Which means that it is still unclear if SS Gotenks is stronger or weaker than SS3 Goku, but we know that they are not too far in power.

Goku also confirms that Boo has a strange ki that is difficult to measure.
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…
Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks had no chance only when Boo turned into Evil Boo, which means that SS Gotenks may had a chance against Innocent Boo.
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Piccolo sensed that Gotenks had gotten much stronger, but we still don't know if SS Gotenks is stronger or weaker than SS3 Goku. However, Gotenks turns Super Saiyan 3, which makes him 8 times stronger. We do know that SS Gotenks is much stronger than SS2 Goku, so SS3 Gotenks must be stronger than SS3 Goku as well.
Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P13.3-
Context: as Gotenks beats up on Boo
Goku: “Amazin’, amazin’! At this rate, Gohan ain’t gonna get a turn!
Kaioshin: “Oh!”
SS3 Gotenks shows power great enough to kill Evil Boo... if he had more time.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!
Goku is scared of Evil Boo. He believes that he & Vegeta together wouldn't stand a chance against him if they were to go outside, except if the could use the Potara to merge. You could say that Goku was lying so that he wouldn't hurt Vegeta's pride by showing SS3, but he had no problem of going full power against Pure Boo later, not to mention that merging with Vegeta forever just to not hurt his pride would be too stupid, even for Goku.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
So, while Goku was wetting his pants before, he acts cocky now. He is obviously bluffing, and believes he can open a hole in Boo's body because his body is like a gum. But Boo tells them that now that they have gotten smaller, they have gotten weaker as well.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?
Evil Boo transforms into S. Kaioshin Boo, which makes him even stronger than before, and also makes Goku even more scared.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
However, as S. Kaioshin Boo reverts back to Pure Boo, Goku is happy, and believes that they have a chance now, unlike against Evil Boo & S. Kaioshin Boo. He even refused the Potara, while he was strongly suggesting them against Evil Boo.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”
Vegeta's whole "You are #1, Kakarotto!" doesn't mean that Goku is the strongest guy ever. He finally admits that between the two of them, Goku is the strongest, and the only one of the two capable of fighting Boo.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Both Goku & Vegeta confirm that SS3 Goku in full power can kill Pure Boo.
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.
Vegeta: “No.”
Just because Goku says this doesn't mean that Gohan & Gotenks have to fight together against Pure Boo. It could be read like that, but there are other lines before that that prove otherwise.


So, in the end, we know that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is stronger than Evil Boo, who is stronger than SS3 Goku, who is stronger than Pure Boo, who is stronger than Innocent Boo, who could be either stronger, or weaker (but without a big difference) than SS Gotenks, who is stronger than SS Goku, which makes SS3 Gotenks stronger than SS3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan even stronger than those two.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:24 pm

All we know for sure is that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta until he achieves SSJ3, at which point he surpasses Vegeta. Otherwise, Gotenks in his lower form accomplishes nothing to indicate his is SSJ2/3 tier.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:28 pm

Axiom wrote:All we know for sure is that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta until he achieves SSJ3, at which point he surpasses Vegeta.
No, Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks had a chance against Innocent Boo, meaning that SS Gotenks is already stronger than SS2 Vegeta. The Daizenshuu can state whatever they want (and I take it that base Gotenks surpassed SS2 Vegeta after RoSaT), the manga is above everything.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by SaiyanZ » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:30 pm

I know its not a popular opinion here, but I believe Goku's SSJ3 powers fluctuate depending on his body and where he is fighting. Personally, I would definitely say SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku if he was alive and on Earth. If Goku were either dead and/or fighting in the afterlife, I would def. say Goku is stronger then.
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:37 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Below is probably every line that can tell us something about the difference between SS3 Gotenks & SS3 Goku. Tell me if I missed anything.
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.
Goku predicts that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to kill Innocent Boo. Since there is no way to know for sure, it is possible that he could be wrong, but since Goku is a very experienced fighter, and also knows how powerful Fusion is, SS Gotenks has to be not very far from Innocent Boo, even if he is weaker than him.
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Goku says that he probably wouldn't be able able to kill Innocent Boo, but later admits that he lied. Which means that it is still unclear if SS Gotenks is stronger or weaker than SS3 Goku, but we know that they are not too far in power.

Goku also confirms that Boo has a strange ki that is difficult to measure.
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…
Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks had no chance only when Boo turned into Evil Boo, which means that SS Gotenks may had a chance against Innocent Boo.
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Piccolo sensed that Gotenks had gotten much stronger, but we still don't know if SS Gotenks is stronger or weaker than SS3 Goku. However, Gotenks turns Super Saiyan 3, which makes him 8 times stronger. We do know that SS Gotenks is much stronger than SS2 Goku, so SS3 Gotenks must be stronger than SS3 Goku as well.
Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P13.3-
Context: as Gotenks beats up on Boo
Goku: “Amazin’, amazin’! At this rate, Gohan ain’t gonna get a turn!
Kaioshin: “Oh!”
SS3 Gotenks shows power great enough to kill Evil Boo... if he had more time.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!
Goku is scared of Evil Boo. He believes that he & Vegeta together wouldn't stand a chance against him if they were to go outside, except if the could use the Potara to merge. You could say that Goku was lying so that he wouldn't hurt Vegeta's pride by showing SS3, but he had no problem of going full power against Pure Boo later, not to mention that merging with Vegeta forever just to not hurt his pride would be too stupid, even for Goku.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
So, while Goku was wetting his pants before, he acts cocky now. He is obviously bluffing, and believes he can open a hole in Boo's body because his body is like a gum. But Boo tells them that now that they have gotten smaller, they have gotten weaker as well.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?
Evil Boo transforms into S. Kaioshin Boo, which makes him even stronger than before, and also makes Goku even more scared.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
However, as S. Kaioshin Boo reverts back to Pure Boo, Goku is happy, and believes that they have a chance now, unlike against Evil Boo & S. Kaioshin Boo. He even refused the Potara, while he was strongly suggesting them against Evil Boo.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”
Vegeta's whole "You are #1, Kakarotto!" doesn't mean that Goku is the strongest guy ever. He finally admits that between the two of them, Goku is the strongest, and the only one of the two capable of fighting Boo.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Both Goku & Vegeta confirm that SS3 Goku in full power can kill Pure Boo.
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.
Vegeta: “No.”
Just because Goku says this doesn't mean that Gohan & Gotenks have to fight together against Pure Boo. It could be read like that, but there are other lines before that that prove otherwise.


So, in the end, we know that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is stronger than Evil Boo, who is stronger than SS3 Goku, who is stronger than Pure Boo, who is stronger than Innocent Boo, who could be either stronger, or weaker (but without a big difference) than SS Gotenks, who is stronger than SS Goku, which makes SS3 Gotenks stronger than SS3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan even stronger than those two.
I'll add two things
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Notice here how after he was brought down to Super Boo's level he says we're almost there. The we're almost there is to weaken Boo to the very first one of all. This is referenced in the quote below. DBZ covered the rest of the quote
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.
Notice how Goku was talking about returning Boo to the very first one of all and labels the Fat Boo the very first one of all. It's clear cut that this was the goal and that Super Boo is way too much for Goku.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by Axiom » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:38 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Axiom wrote:All we know for sure is that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta until he achieves SSJ3, at which point he surpasses Vegeta.
No, Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks had a chance against Innocent Boo, meaning that SS Gotenks is already stronger than SS2 Vegeta. The Daizenshuu can state whatever they want (and I take it that base Gotenks surpassed SS2 Vegeta after RoSaT), the manga is above everything.
Your opinion <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Daizenshuu on this matter. I don't even have the space to show how little it matters. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta, deal with it.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by PerfectFreeza » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:43 pm

On this matter?Seems to me, that you are biased. Axion.
Daizenshuu 7 says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabra.Does that make it a fact?
It says Tenshinhan fought 19.Does that mean it's a fact, even though it never happened?
The Daizenshuus aren't always right and it's very vague on Gotenks's bio anyway.
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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Axiom wrote:Your opinion <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Daizenshuu on this matter. I don't even have the space to show how little it matters. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta, deal with it.
I agree that my opinion doesn't matter in front of the Daizenshuu. However, I did not state my opinion, I stated what was implied in the manga. Piccolo had seen SS2 Vegeta's full power, and knew that Vegeta didn't stand a chance against him. However, he only lost hope for SS Gotenks only when Boo turned into Evil Boo, since he didn't believe RoSaT was needed for Gotenks to beat Innocent Boo. So, SS Gotenks (pre) > SS2 Vegeta.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:50 pm

People just don't like the fact that Goku is a weakling in the Boo saga. But they can't have that so they follow the Church of Goku's beliefs so they can falsely believe he was up there. He was mid tier at best.
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