SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[dbzfan7]

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Isn't hidden power and hidden Potential the same thing.

[RandomGuy96]

Potential and hidden power shouldn't mean the same thing, yet they seem to be used interchangeably in this series, for example with Majin Vegeta's "hidden power" boost, and Gohan's "unlock potential" boost from Guru. But the point is, hybrids won't automatically have more hidden power just because they're hybrids. They all have more potential to get stronger, but the amount of hidden power they have in them untapped at any given time shouldn't be proportionally more than it is for a normal saiyan.

Interestingly, this means that, if Vegeta got SS3, it probably wouldn't do anything, since Babidi's power up already drew his hidden power beyond its limits.

Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

I'd say that the fact that Gotenks got SS3 at all is more telling of hidden power than anything. This pure saiyan with no Otherworld training could evidently get all of his power drawn out in normal SS2. This is one of the reasons I don't think that the Super Saiyan 3 multiplier should be consistent between Goku and Gotenks; both the line in the Daiz and the line above are very clear. Super Saiyan 3 drew Goku's hidden power to the limit. Vegeta's Majin power up drew his hidden power BEYOND its limits. Does this mean the Majin power up multiplied pre-Majin Vegeta by 4? Of course not.

[dbzfan7]

Potential and hidden power shouldn't mean the same thing, yet they seem to be used interchangeably in this series, for example with Majin Vegeta's "hidden power" boost, and Gohan's "unlock potential" boost from Guru. But the point is, hybrids won't automatically have more hidden power just because they're hybrids. They all have more potential to get stronger, but the amount of hidden power they have in them untapped at any given time shouldn't be proportionally more than it is for a normal saiyan.

Interestingly, this means that, if Vegeta got SS3, it probably wouldn't do anything, since Babidi's power up already drew his hidden power beyond its limits.

Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

I'd say that the fact that Gotenks got SS3 at all is more telling of hidden power than anything. This pure saiyan with no Otherworld training could evidently get all of his power drawn out in normal SS2.

Well not all hybrids have more hidden power than Full Bloods. But they all do have far more potential. Trunks has more potential than his Dad, but he doesn't seem to have more hidden power. Same with Goten. Gohan on the other hand has a massive power hiding within him that he never fully unlocked until the Elder Kaioshin unlocked it and took the power far far beyond it's limits.

I guess the difference is that hidden power is the power untapped and locked within and hidden potential is the ability to get better gains if trained properly and be able to surpass limits in shorter amounts of time

[RandomGuy96]

Of course. That's what potential means; they CAN get stronger, but they're not automatically stronger within at all given times.

I'd like to know what you think of the Majin power up vs SS3. Those lines above seem pretty clear: SS3 draws the hidden power of a saiyan to its limits. The Majin power up drew the hidden power of a saiyan BEYOND its limits. This would imply that SS3 doesn't have a consistent multiplier between users, just on the virtue of drawing out hidden power. Did the SEG even say that it did btw, or did it just show SS2 Goku x 4 = SS3 Goku?

[dbzfan7]

Of course. That's what potential means; they CAN get stronger, but they're not automatically stronger within at all given times.

I'd like to know what you think of the Majin power up vs SS3. Those lines above seem pretty clear: SS3 draws the hidden power of a saiyan to its limits. The Majin power up drew the hidden power of a saiyan BEYOND its limits. This would imply that SS3 doesn't have a consistent multiplier between users, just on the virtue of drawing out hidden power. Did the SEG even say that it did btw, or did it just show SS2 Goku x 4 = SS3 Goku?

Eh I take Babidi's thing as bringing out what Vegeta had at SSJ2 and bringing out his power a little more to match Goku. I consider SSJ3 a multiplier first above everything and the whole description as another word for "this is the strongest super saiyan form and the maximum boost the saiyans can get."

[RandomGuy96]

Of course. That's what potential means; they CAN get stronger, but they're not automatically stronger within at all given times.

I'd like to know what you think of the Majin power up vs SS3. Those lines above seem pretty clear: SS3 draws the hidden power of a saiyan to its limits. The Majin power up drew the hidden power of a saiyan BEYOND its limits. This would imply that SS3 doesn't have a consistent multiplier between users, just on the virtue of drawing out hidden power. Did the SEG even say that it did btw, or did it just show SS2 Goku x 4 = SS3 Goku?

Eh I take Babidi's thing as bringing out what Vegeta had at SSJ2 and bringing out his power a little more to match Goku. I consider SSJ3 a multiplier first above everything and the whole description as another word for "this is the strongest super saiyan form and the maximum boost the saiyans can get."

But... that's not what either of those quotes say.

Super Saiyan 3:
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits.

Majin Power Up:
Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

Let's review: Super Saiyan 3 is explicitly said to draw a saiyan's hidden power to its limits. Babidi's power up is explicitly said to draw a saiyan's power beyond its limits. They even use the exact same wording. Seems like a pretty clear Majin Vegeta > SS3 Vegeta statement.

Does anyone else find this weird when paired with the "Super Saiyan 3 is always a x400 multiplier" assertion?

[dbzfan7]

Of course. That's what potential means; they CAN get stronger, but they're not automatically stronger within at all given times.

I'd like to know what you think of the Majin power up vs SS3. Those lines above seem pretty clear: SS3 draws the hidden power of a saiyan to its limits. The Majin power up drew the hidden power of a saiyan BEYOND its limits. This would imply that SS3 doesn't have a consistent multiplier between users, just on the virtue of drawing out hidden power. Did the SEG even say that it did btw, or did it just show SS2 Goku x 4 = SS3 Goku?

Eh I take Babidi's thing as bringing out what Vegeta had at SSJ2 and bringing out his power a little more to match Goku. I consider SSJ3 a multiplier first above everything and the whole description as another word for "this is the strongest super saiyan form and the maximum boost the saiyans can get."

But... that's not what either of those quotes say.

Super Saiyan 3:
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits.

Majin Power Up:
Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

I'll put it another way. I think all SSJ forms bring out hidden power and that's where the multipliers come from. I find it odd why SSJ3 would be the only one while the other forms wouldn't. The reason why they can't be accessed at certain times is because the body can't handle the power of the transformations at earlier points in time.

[RandomGuy96]

I'll put it another way. I think all SSJ forms bring out hidden power and that's where the multipliers come from. I find it odd why SSJ3 would be the only one while the other forms wouldn't. The reason why they can't be accessed at certain times is because the body can't handle the power of the transformations at earlier points in time.

So do I.

It doesn't, IMO, it just draws out ALL of the hidden power as opposed to some of it.

That still wouldn't really change the blatant Majin Vegeta > hypothetical SS3 Vegeta statement. Hidden power is hidden power; it's either there or it isn't. We explicitly saw Vegeta's hidden power and got it drawn out beyond its limits- and it still only made him even with Goku. A power up that draws hidden power beyond its limits > a power up that draws hidden power to its limits. It seems very simple.

[dbzfan7]

I'll put it another way. I think all SSJ forms bring out hidden power and that's where the multipliers come from. I find it odd why SSJ3 would be the only one while the other forms wouldn't. The reason why they can't be accessed at certain times is because the body can't handle the power of the transformations at earlier points in time.

So do I.

It doesn't, IMO, it just draws out ALL of the hidden power as opposed to some of it.

That still wouldn't really change the blatant Majin Vegeta > hypothetical SS3 Vegeta statement. Hidden power is hidden power; it's either there or it isn't. We explicitly saw Vegeta's hidden power and got it drawn out beyond its limits- and it still only made him even with Goku. A power up that draws hidden power beyond its limits > a power up that draws hidden power to its limits. It seems very simple.

Well I like to think Vegeta was under the limit of the SSJ3 requirement so he was only brought beyond the SSJ2 limit he had. In my power levels he reaches the SSJ3 requirement after the boost, but he still would have no way of knowing how to access SSJ3. Seeing how veiny and bulky Vegeta looked compared to Goku makes me think Vegeta's body was just pushed beyond his bodies current limit near the point it could be harmful while Goku just looked natural in SSJ2.

[RandomGuy96]

How does having your hidden power drawn out suddenly spawn a buttload more hidden power out of nowhere? That doesn't make sense. The whole point of the Majin power up was to draw out hidden power- there, it's right in the front, no longer hidden inside. There is no more power to draw out because that's what the Majin power up did. Majin Vegeta > hypothetical SS3 Vegeta is pretty clearly stated.

I just see this as yet another reason why SS3 doesn't HAVE to have a consistent multiplier.

[dbzfan7]

How does having your hidden power drawn out suddenly spawn a buttload more hidden power out of nowhere? The whole point of the Majin power up was to draw out hidden power- there, it's right in the front, no longer hidden inside. There is no more power to draw out because that's what the Majin power up did.

I consider it in levels. Babidi made Vegeta surpass his SSJ2 wall kinda like the grade forms do for SSJ. Babidi didn't hit the SSJ3 wall. But that's my opinion. I highly doubt Majin Vegeta would be stronger than SSJ3 Vegeta as like I said the multiplier comes first. Why even mention a multiplier if it isn't important.

Also The SEG which gives the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multiplier does not mention anything about hidden power in the super saiyan forms and just talks about the multipliers. D7 doesn't mention any multipliers besides SSJ. So basically you have 2 contradicting descriptions. One mentions Hidden power. The other mentions SSJ3 being of calmer heart than SSJ2 and having a 4x SSJ2 multiplier. I'll go with the multiplier.

I consider the D7 the outdated description as it's older and they don't have the multipliers the SEG got.

[Saiga]

I think SS3 draws out the Saiyan's powers to the limits because it's the strongest transformation that the Saiyans have. That's why SS4 also says the same thing, because in GT that is the strongest Saiyan form.

[dbzfan7]

I think SS3 draws out the Saiyan's powers to the limits because it's the strongest transformation that the Saiyans have. That's why SS4 also says the same thing, because in GT that is the strongest Saiyan form.

What's your stance on what Random and I are talking about. Would you say the majin boost Vegeta got is greater than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegeta.

[Saiga]

I think SS3 draws out the Saiyan's powers to the limits because it's the strongest transformation that the Saiyans have. That's why SS4 also says the same thing, because in GT that is the strongest Saiyan form.

What's your stance on what Random and I are talking about. Would you say the majin boost Vegeta got is greater than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegeta.

Nope. Otherwise Vegeta would never be stronger than he was in the Android arc, he hit his limit there as well. Limits are only temporary walls.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

Does Super Saiyan 3 really draw out hidden power? How much hidden power do you think Goku or Gotenks has?

[hleV]

Does Super Saiyan 3 really draw out hidden power? How much hidden power do you think Goku or Gotenks has?

400x base is their hidden power.

Also if Babidi actually drew Vegeta's hidden power, he wouldn't have needed to go SS and then later SS2. I'll just go with him making Vegeta stronger. SS3 Vegeta would still be 4x stronger than SS2 Vegeta. And THAT would be his actual limit of the time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS3 draws the hidden power (not potential, IIRC)

There is no "hidden potential" in the original (or rather, the way it's used in the dub). The term used in the original is hidden/dormant power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I changed my mind about Pre Gotenks. Goten & Trunks are weaker than Goku, but I believe they are at less than 2 times weaker than Goku. However, Fusion is stated in the guides to make the pair dozens of times stronger, and Toriyama said that Fusion is greater than Super Saiyan, so Fusion should make Gotenks more than 50 times stronger than Goten & Trunks. So, let's say that base Gotenks is 80 times stronger than Goten & Trunks, and that Goku & Vegeta are 1.5 times stronger than the kids (I'll also treat Goten & Trunks as equals, since their difference is not big):

Base Goten/Trunks: 1
Base Goku/Vegeta: 1,5
SS2 Goku/Vegeta: 150
SS3 Goku: 600
Base Gotenks (pre): 80
SS Gotenks (pre): 4.000
Base Gotenks (post): 155
SS Gotenks (post): 7.750
SS3 Gotenks: 62.000
Ultimate Gohan: 70.000

The numbers are not literal, but that's about how I view things based on what official information we have.

[Axiom]

Yeah after looking at that PL list, I think you're the crazy one.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why? Goten & Trunks are stated to be as strong as Gohan in the Daizenshuu, and Gohan is implied to not be much weaker than Goku & Vegeta. The SEG state that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, SS2 is a x2 multiplier, and SS3 is a x4 multiplier. Furthermore, Toriyama said that he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he decided that Fusion would be it. There are also various guidebooks (including the Daizenshuu) that state that Fusion makes the users dozens of times stronger. Goten & Trunks are still very young, with a lot of unused dormant power inside them (which is stated to be greater than Goku's & Vegeta's dormant powers), which should allow them to get the huge increases in power that Goku & co. were getting in the past, and RoSaT isn't a normal place to train, it's actually the best place to train, and they trained as hard as they could for a week, which obviously gave them huge gains, since Piccolo sensed a great power-up in Gotenks. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu state that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT, which I interpret as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, which fits with Piccolo's comment. And since I already proved that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku exclusively through the manga, without ignoring everything (I forgot some small things, but dbzfan7 included these for me).

I'm not crazy, I concluded in these because that's what all the official information (manga + manga guides) tell me, and unlike you, I don't ignore anything that would prove me wrong.