SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[dbzfan7]

It's just downright silly to have them surpass their previous SS selves in base (which they would do if you're taking the gag implications seriously) and to have Gotenks (pre) MANY TIMES stronger than SS3 Goku. Such a thing was never implied at all.

Where does the Daiz say fusion makes the fusees dozens of times stronger? Quote please. As far as I know that comes from the GT Perfect Files. If it did say that, it seems to contradict their line about Vegeta > Gotenks (pre) heavily. Also, that line be Toriyama doesn't have to be interpreted as "the fusion boost is more than x50".

An anime guidebook says the same thing for Gotenks that SSJ4 Gogeta has. I posted the two scans in the translation thread. I recall the first one is from Daizenshuu 10. One of them suggests this.

[PerfectFreeza]

There is a Daizenshuu 10?I thought there were only Daizenshuu 1 to 7.

[Kamiccolo9]

There is a Daizenshuu 10?I thought there were only Daizenshuu 1 to 7.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/daizenshuu/
8 and 9 covered the TCG, while 10 covered the end of the anime.

[Hitiro]

It's just downright silly to have them surpass their previous SS selves in base and to have Gotenks (pre) MANY TIMES stronger than SS3 Goku. Such a thing was never implied at all.

Where does the Daiz say fusion makes the fusees dozens of times stronger? Quote please. As far as I know that comes from the GT Perfect Files. If it did say that, it seems to contradict their line about Vegeta > Gotenks (pre) heavily. Also, that line be Toriyama doesn't have to be interpreted as "the fusion boost is more than x50".

Well I was just doing it do showcase how such an increase could be conceivable.. But I'm sure it is at least a dozen. For Vegetto to be equal with a Boohan, assuming Boohan was 2x SSJ3 Goku's level of power then Base Vegetto would have to be (Goku + Vegeta) * 16 and then he would need to go SSJ. But we know Evil Boo and Gohan are much stronger than SSJ3 Goku. So to say Boohan is just as powerful as 2x SSJ3 Goku is really an understatement.. And again, that calculation was only to make him equal to somebody 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Judging by SSJ Vegetto's feats he is at least 2x Boohan. So if we still assume Boohan is 2x SSJ3 Goku. Then Base Vegetto would have to be (Goku + Vegeta) * 32. But because I have made Boohan weaker then we could be looking at an even higher boost than 32...

[PerfectFreeza]

Thanks Kamiccolo9.
On topic:Vegetto is special fusion though.Not only it is a Potara fusion created being,meaning it's stronger than (what if) Gogeta, but the fusees are rivals.

[Hitiro]

Thanks Kamiccolo9.
On topic:Vegetto is special fusion though.Not only it is a Potara fusion created being,meaning it's stronger than (what if) Gogeta, but the fusees are rivals.

Again, just pointing out a similar effect which also gives a insane boost to the individuals to make my point. I'm highly aware that Potara fusion is better in nearly every way.

[RandomGuy96]

Well I was just doing it do showcase how such an increase could be conceivable.. But I'm sure it is at least a dozen. For Vegetto to be equal with a Boohan, assuming Boohan was 2x SSJ3 Goku's level of power then Base Vegetto would have to be (Goku + Vegeta) * 16 and then he would need to go SSJ. But we know Evil Boo and Gohan are much stronger than SSJ3 Goku. So to say Boohan is just as powerful as 2x SSJ3 Goku is really an understatement.. And again, that calculation was only to make him equal to somebody 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Judging by SSJ Vegetto's feats he is at least 2x Boohan. So if we still assume Boohan is 2x SSJ3 Goku. Then Base Vegetto would have to be (Goku + Vegeta) * 32. But because I have made Boohan weaker then we could be looking at an even higher boost than 32...

Potara and the dance are different. The Daiz says the dance is more like addition while Potara is more like multiplication, according to the Daizenshuu. The Daizenshuu also heavily implies that Buuhan would just school SS3 Gogeta, and this is supported in the manga, where Buuhan (who, I remind you, has absorbed an expert on dance fusion and an actual dance fusion) predicts that even a hypothetical merging of Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to stop him (he thinks this to himself while just cruising around, he's not being boastful or desperate).

On topic:Vegetto is special fusion though.Not only it is a Potara fusion created being,meaning it's stronger than (what if) Gogeta, but the fusees are rivals.

I believe the so called "rivals boost" is a crock of shit anyway. But Potara being waaaaaaay stronger than dance fusion can't really be denied; it's outright stated in the Daizenshuu, and the SEG even says that Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta. Even if you don't take that literally (I don't), it should still give you a good idea of the magnitudes of difference between the two.

[PerfectFreeza]

You use that theory, about it meaning the closer fusees being stronger, no?
I believe that too.
Where is it said about Gohan Buu being stronger than SSJ3 Gogeta?I would like to see it.

[RandomGuy96]

You use that theory, about it meaning the closer fusees being stronger, no?
I believe that too.

Yep. That's what that line implied to me; "they rival each other in power". Mostly I follow that because the very idea of the earrings magically deciding to multiply your power by a thousand just because the two people who make you up happen to hate each other is... stupid. And because people have really taken that line and ran with it; Old Kai threw it in as an afterthought but everyone uses it as "evidence" that any fusion of Goku and Vegeta is maximum.

In terms of multipliers, I think it's A + B x whatever percent of A be is. So, for example, Vegetto might be (100,000,000 + 100,000,000) x 100, while Kibito Kai would (2,400,000,000 + 66,000,000) x 2.75, explaining the drastically different effects.

[Hitiro]

Potara and the dance are different. The Daiz says the dance is more like addition while Potara is more like multiplication, according to the Daizenshuu. The Daizenshuu also heavily implies that Buuhan would just school SS3 Gogeta, and this is supported in the manga, where Buuhan (who, I remind you, has absorbed an expert on dance fusion and an actual dance fusion) predicts that even a hypothetical merging of Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to stop him (he thinks this to himself while just cruising around, he's not being boastful or desperate).

I also don't recall this ever being said in the manga..

[RandomGuy96]

It's after Goku escapes Buu with IT and Buu is flying around the Earth to find him and Vegeta. Unfortunately I don't have the exact quote.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I predict this thread shall be locked very soon.

Yep.
Pity. All of the Buu threads keep getting locked.

They never do last.

It's always the Goku and or Pure Buu fanboys that ruin these topics huh?

[dbzfan7]

It's always the Goku and or Pure Buu fanboys that ruin these topics huh?

Yep *sips beer*

[Saitou Hajime]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

[hleV]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

1. He didn't know how Potara works.
2. He also considered becoming weaker if he fused with Satan. That's not exactly addition.

[VegettoEX]

Please either contribute to the discussion in a thoughtful and polite way, or don't post at all. Meta-commentary -- particularly in a sarcastic way -- about where a thread is heading is only going to help shape it into that downward spiral where it otherwise does not need to go.

It's up to you if a thread remains open or closed. All we moderators do is enact what you bring upon yourselves. I hate to say it in such a dour and negative way, but you don't leave much choice.

You want to keep talking about a particular topic? Be awesome. Be a completely awesome, polite, thoughtful, insightful, and productive member of the community. Lead by example.

[Kakarot88]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

1. He didn't know how Potara works.
2. He also considered becoming weaker if he fused with Satan. That's not exactly addition.

Goku was referring to Mister Satan's lack of knowledge of Ki making him (ie their fusion) potentially weaker as an overall fighter than Goku by himself. The addition he points out would be minimal at best but he was out of options.

Posing my own questions to y'all just to see who thinks what and what the topic is at its core:
(1.) when Goku says inside of Super Buu essentially Boo will kill them (ie Goku and Vegeta) if they go out like this, does that to you mean Goku and Vegeta unfused or the fact that they are miniature within Boo now and have no idea what affect Boos body has had on them?
(2.) does Goku saying to Super Boo fused with Piccolo after the gotenks fusion wears off "I'm disappointed even Gohan on his own can beat you now" mean Goku is weaker despite him saying "even Gohan can beat you now"?
(3.) the fact that Vegeta calls Boo a "shrimp" when he reverts to Kid Boo and that SS3 Goku should be more than enough means kid boo is weaker than Super Boo, despite Vegeta making such underestimates before specifically almost the exact same statement against Perfect Cell and getting bitch slapped after rushing in against the overwhelming might of Super Perfect Cell when the cell juniors kicked his ass? Essentially does Vegeta's arrogance mean to you that kid boo is weaker because miniature Goku said super boo would kill them and Vegeta says Goku can kill Kid Boo...?...just curious.

Thanks to any who respond. I have my own opinions but don't feel like arguing so I am reay just curious as to who thinks what and why.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

that line be Toriyama doesn't have to be interpreted as "the fusion boost is more than x50".

Why? He said he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he created Fusion. Since Super Saiyan is a x50 boost, Fusion should be more than x50.

The Daiz says the dance is more like addition while Potara is more like multiplication, according to the Daizenshuu.

I believe you are partially wrong. What you said was stated in SEG, not Daizenshuu, and there was also no mention of Fusion in that statement. It was stated there that Potara work more like multiplication, rather than addition.

[RandomGuy96]

Why? He said he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he created Fusion. Since Super Saiyan is a x50 boost, Fusion should be more than x50.

Do you have the exact quote? It can simply be interpretated as fused saiyans > saiyans. Or fusion > new Super Saiyan forms, because the base fusions never did anything.

I believe you are partially wrong. What you said was stated in SEG, not Daizenshuu, and there was also no mention of Fusion in that statement. It was stated there that Potara work more like multiplication, rather than addition.

Could've swor the SEG said something about it being like addition. At least, I see people cite that a lot on various forums.

[Kaboom]

I figured it just meant "Fusion is a new way to make people much stronger than they are without simply introducing more Super Saiyan forms."