Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's. Gohan's ultimate state is something that brings all of his potential, SSJ and hidden, to the surface. Vegeta just got a Toei boost. If that factored into his transformation, people would have called bull shit and you know it. You also forget that Beers spared Earth because he was legitimately intrigued by Goku. And lets be honest, how weird would it be if you saw Gohan or Vegeta up there fighting Beers instead of Goku? It'd be pretty fucking weird. Furthermore, you keep saying wank even though it's not. Being unable to beat his foe with a form potentially anyone could have, not sure how many times I'm gonna have to repeat that, isn't wank. It's the exact opposite.

@MightyOzaru Ahh, the good old "it's just like [thing that it isn't like at all], so it's ok" fallacy.

Never said it was ok. I'm just not seeing any reason for all this hate when many other things have been much worse.

[Saiga]

It would be weird if Vegeta fought instead of Goku, but it's also weird that Goku fought when Vegeta proved himself to be stronger. So they should have really reworked that so that it didn't have to be weird at all.

Gohan fighting Beers would only be weird in the sense of "Wow, they're trying to make things go logically and without Goku wank? Hurray!"

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's not fucking Goku wank! He lost, how many more times can I say that? Vegeta being more powerful is already considered bull shit soooooo.... Vegeta's strength increase is a Toei gag more than anything else IMO. Gohan, again, isn't any stronger than his dad without his ultimate state. He's actually weaker I'm sure.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's. Gohan's ultimate state is something that brings all of his potential, SSJ and hidden, to the surface. Vegeta just got a Toei boost. If that factored into his transformation, people would have called bull shit and you know it. You also forget that Beers spared Earth because he was legitimately intrigued by Goku. And lets be honest, how weird would it be if you saw Gohan or Vegeta up there fighting Beers instead of Goku? It'd be pretty fucking weird. Furthermore, you keep saying wank even though it's not. Being unable to beat his foe with a form potentially anyone could have, not sure how many times I'm gonna have to repeat that, isn't wank. It's the exact opposite.

Do you honestly think that would have mattered had they ever had any intention of letting someone else have SSJG?
Beers was intrigued by Goku and Vegeta.
It wouldn't be any weirder than Gohan taking out Cell. Or Gohan taking out the guy who Goku was terrified of. Or Vegeta doing the hard work while Goku was standing there charging the Genki Dama.
It was a cheap way to make Goku the strongest again that had nothing in the manga backing it, with an utterly asinine backstory and an egregiously stupid way of achieving the form. Goku even considered the powerup cheap.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm starting to wonder if you even understand Dragon Ball. Goku is the only one who would intrigue Beers. Oh yeah strongest again for a whole 30 minutes . It's not a permanent form.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm starting to wonder if you even understand Dragon Ball. Goku is the only one who would intrigue Beers. Oh yeah strongest again for a whole 30 minutes . It's not a permanent form.

Back at his palace, Beerus tells Whis that Goku was not a truly “formidable” opponent, but that both he and Vegeta might eventually grow strong enough to warrant the term.

Beerus says that Goku and Vegeta might soon actually become fearsome foes, although he has trouble remembering Goku’s name.

And you just said he can do it whenever he wants. It might as well be permanent.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's

Post-Z sword Gohan was implied to be able to take out Fat Buu. In Super Saiyan. He also showed greater strength than Goku in handling the Z-sword. If post-Z sword Gohan in base wasn't stronger than Goku in base, then a lot of scenes would be incredibly dumb.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's Goku's personality, not his strength, that intrigues Beers .

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's

Post-Z sword Gohan was implied to be able to take out Fat Buu. In Super Saiyan.

Implied? I don't think so. Even if he were, Goku's been getting stronger while Gohan hasn't been.

And you just said he can do it whenever he wants. It might as well be permanent.

Anyone can have it. You might as well stop complaining.

[dbzfan7]

Nothing says the form isn't permanent as Goku absorbed the power into himself. We don't know for sure.

I also agree the back story and the whole thing was kinda stupid.

[RandomGuy96]

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Gohan believes he's become the greatest around. Kaioshin says that he can definitely beat Buu with Super Saiyan. Goku wonders whether or not he can. If he wasn't MASSIVELY above Goku in base (which was shown by the ease with which he handled the sword), then this line would make no sense; it wouldn't be "I wonder" it would be "Actually, he's still weaker than/not much stronger than me, so he'll get slaughtered by Buu". The very fact that Goku even WONDERS if he can beat Buu in normal Super Saiyan would pretty much mean SS Gohan >> SS2 Goku.

So no, the SSG power up doesn't even make sense on those grounds. SSG Gohan would've bent Bills over a table.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There are plenty of lines in the Buu saga that make no sense . In all seriousness though, I don't think he's surpassed Goku's base quite yet. If I were to take all lines in this arc seriously, I would believe SSJ Gotenks is faaaaaar stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's Goku's personality, not his strength, that intrigues Beers .

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's

Post-Z sword Gohan was implied to be able to take out Fat Buu. In Super Saiyan.

Implied? I don't think so. Even if he were, Goku's been getting stronger while Gohan hasn't been.

And you just said he can do it whenever he wants. It might as well be permanent.

Anyone can have it. You might as well stop complaining.

When Vegeta or Gohan or even Goten or Trunks save the day with SSJG, or even get to put it to good use, I may consider stopping my complaints. And, honestly, what do you think the chances of that happening are?
I don't see why you're defending it. Tell me the truth. If I had told you 2 years ago that the new Saiyan form would be achieved by Goku standing in a circle of his friends holding hands giving their energy to him because they are all pure hearted (cough), and, by the way, one of them is a fetus, but whatever, you would say it sounded like a great idea?

[RandomGuy96]

"I'm going to ignore that line so Goku can still be the strongest in base".

Do you seriously think that Goku would be wondering whether or not Super Saiyan Gohan can beat the slayer of SS2s if Gohan was still much weaker than those same SS2s in the same form?

If I were to take all lines in this arc seriously, I would believe SSJ Gotenks is faaaaaar stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

The only thing that says that are gag scenes and lines where Goku has a very good reason to exaggerate (i.e. telling Buu that someone stronger than him would show up to fight him). No such thing here. And maybe SS Gotenks really is that much stronger.

[TheMightyOzaru]

"I'm going to ignore that line so Goku can still be the strongest in base".

Do you seriously think that Goku would be wondering whether or not Super Saiyan Gohan can beat the slayer of SS2s if Gohan was still much weaker than those same SS2s in the same form?

I've always thought Gohan hadn't surpassed Goku here even before this movie was announced. Don't you tell me I'm biased . Would base Gotenks seriously think he could beat Buu having fought him previously if it wasn't true?

[RandomGuy96]

I've always thought Gohan hadn't surpassed Goku here even before this movie was announced. Don't you tell me I'm biased . Would Gotenks seriously think he could beat Buu having fought him previously if it wasn't true?

Doing so requires you to completely ignore some lines and/or consider everyone to be an idiot. So basically, the same logic employed by the Goku > all fanboys. You said that it wouldn't be any different because base Goku is still as strong as base Gohan. I just showed you a quote that proves he's faaaaaaar stronger. Strong enough that it was thought he'd have a chance against the slayer of SS2s just in his normal Super Saiyan form (or Super Saiyan 2; at the minimum that means Gohan is capable of stomping Goku and Vegeta at the same time). Base Gohan >> Base Goku.

Buu's ki is "like a lie", and that was a gag scene. This... is not.

[TheMightyOzaru]

proves? You haven't proven anything. it's a vague strength checker that's just as reliable as any other Gotenks strength checker. There are actually Gotenks strength checker moments that aren't involved with any gag scenes .

[Draken]

Gohan's and Vegeta's base forms aren't any higher than Goku's

Post-Z sword Gohan was implied to be able to take out Fat Buu. In Super Saiyan. He also showed greater strength than Goku in handling the Z-sword. If post-Z sword Gohan in base wasn't stronger than Goku in base, then a lot of scenes would be incredibly dumb.

Aren't you the one with a PL list that says Goku > Post Z-Sword Gohan?

[RandomGuy96]

...I don't list post Z sword Gohan on my list, because he never did anything. At least, I don't remember listing him.

[Draken]

...I don't list post Z sword Gohan on my list, because he never did anything. At least, I don't remember listing him.

Maybe I'm getting confused with the 5 different lists I'm trying to separate but I thought I saw it.

[RandomGuy96]

Double checked my list on page 138 of the Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread. Nope. Didn't list him.