Why does Goku hate Cell?

[ABED]

Considering what he has done his whole life you don't think it's wrong? If it was Vegeta that's one thing, but practice what you preach. No?

Goku couldn't bring himself to kill anyone, but now his 9 year old son who's even more of a pacifist is supposed to?

He's killed a number of people but you drop context, killing isn't murder. There's such a thing as justifiable homicide. He has killed a number of red ribbon army soldiers and Piccolo Daimao, and for all he knew, killed Tao Pai Pai and Freeza. Goku never preached "thou shalt not kill".

Yes, Gohan should because it's either that or see everything you love destroyed.

Guys, you need to learn to distinguish between murder and killing. Murder is the unlawful killing of another person and is the initiation of force.

[Mjb1985]

Goku never killed anyone in Gohan's precense. Didn't kill the Saiyans, didn't kill Ginyu Force, didnt kill Freeza. See what I'm saying?

[Kamiccolo9]

Hence my problem with the Dragon Balls.

It doesn't make him into a callous asshole, it only seems like that. Toriyama doesn't plan stuff out. When Goku doesn't finish off Buu, it's because he couldn't. He told Piccolo that. However, when the story neccessitates Goku be brought back and be strong enough to fight an even stronger form of Buu, then Toriyama has to scramble to find an explanation. That retcon makes Goku come off as an ass, still not as big as Vegeta. I wouldn't even call him an ass, he's not doing it to be a dick, he's doing it out of naivete. Should the world be defended by the living?

When the god of gods gets involved, and tells you not to let the universe destroying monster loose, you don't just go let the universe destroying monster loose. Letting the living defend the world is all well and good, unless by not stopping said universe destroying monster you are doing more harm than you would by taking responsibility.
As I said earlier, Goten and Trunks could be trained just as easily after destroying Buu. You don't use universe destroying monsters as a test to see if two kids are worthy protectors of Earth. Gohan was forced to fight at a young age out of necessity; there was no need to get Goten and Trunks involved in the fight against Buu.

[ABED]

Goku never killed anyone in Gohan's precense. Didn't kill the Saiyans, didn't kill Ginyu Force, didnt kill Freeza. See what I'm saying?

He was trying to kill Freeza, so no, I don't see what you're saying. For all he knew, Freeza was in fact dead. He let Vegeta go because he wanted to fight him again, not out of a naive sense of mercy. He tried to kill Freeza with the Genkidama, which Gohan did see. Goku had no problem with Piccolo killing Raditz. Clearly he has no problem with killing.

Kamiccolo, another of the god of gods also told him that the living should be defended by the living. Goku couldn't have trained Goten and Trunks if he defeated Buu, he wouldn't have had the time. I'm not saying this reasoning is great, but it's Toriyama trying desperately to plug story holes due to not planning ahead. Case in point, letting Majin Buu free. Did Toriyama know Goku could turn SS3 at that point? For all he knew, Vegeta and Goku were in fact evenly matched.

[Mjb1985]

Goku gave up fighting Freeza and told him to polish his skills. Then proceeded to give Freeza his own energy to survive and live another day. Goku was leaving and Freeza forced that last blast on himself.

[ABED]

Goku gave up fighting Freeza and told him to polish his skills. Then proceeded to give Freeza his own energy to survive and live another day. Goku was leaving and Freeza forced that last blast on himself.

That's still trying to kill him, even though Goku shouldn't have shown him mercy. Goku was in no danger from Freeza, he killed him because he figured out finally that Freeza wouldn't learn.

Goku killed Buyon. Plus, he doesn't seem to bat an eye when someone else kills people for him. Ha-chan killed White and yet Goku had no problem with it.

[Mjb1985]

If he was really trying to kill Freeza he wouldn't have given him energy or given up.

[dbzfan7]

Goku gave up fighting Freeza and told him to polish his skills. Then proceeded to give Freeza his own energy to survive and live another day. Goku was leaving and Freeza forced that last blast on himself.

That's still trying to kill him, even though Goku shouldn't have shown him mercy. Goku was in no danger from Freeza, he killed him because he figured out finally that Freeza wouldn't learn.

What stops Freeza from killing other people. While "building his skills" he could be blowing up planet after planet. He has no reason to not do that.

[ABED]

Wait, are you agreeing with me or Mjb?

If he was really trying to kill Freeza he wouldn't have given him energy or given up.

He tried to kill him with the Genkidama, and he did try and kill Freeza with that final blast. I really wish Toriyama hadn't brought him back just to die so easily by Trunks. It's ridiculous that after all that happened on Namek, he somehow survived.

[Mjb1985]

Ah I know what it is. No one is directly superior to Cell. If Goku feels he can easily win he doesn't feel threatened. But with Cell, depending on Gohan getting angry again is a wild card. This is their chance.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kamiccolo, another of the god of gods also told him that the living should be defended by the living. Goku couldn't have trained Goten and Trunks if he defeated Buu, he wouldn't have had the time. I'm not saying this reasoning is great, but it's Toriyama trying desperately to plug story holes due to not planning ahead.

That god of gods gave his life to Goku immediately after saying that. Which he wouldn't have had to do if Goku had just let his son bring him back 7 years ago. Also, at that point, Goku wasn't capable of going back to Earth while in a dead body since his time was up.
Goku hangs out with a guy with universe spanning psychic powers. He could have shown the kids how to do the fusion dance. And Goku doesn't have to be the one to train the kids; Piccolo, or one of the other fighters could do it. After the threat was gone. Goten and Trunks were kids, and unlike Gohan, they haven't spent a year being trained for world threatening situations. What's more, Goku didn't even know them! He was placing the fate of the universe in the hands of two kids who he's spent a grand total of a few hours with, and everyone, including the two kids, died because of it.

As for the retcon, that's an out of universe explanation. This is an in-universe forum. In-universe, Goku decided he had to moral authority to thrust the fate of the universe on two unproven kids that he didn't even know, and wasn't even sure if they could pull it off.

[dbzfan7]

Wait, are you agreeing with me or Mjb?

IDK i'm just pointing out how letting Freeza live will just bring more suffering onto those he unleashes his wrath on. If Freeza "built up his skills" he would probably destroy lots of planets while doing so while ending billions to trillions of lives. So why would Goku let this psychopath live.

[ABED]

Ah I know what it is. No one is directly superior to Cell. If Goku feels he can easily win he doesn't feel threatened. But with Cell, depending on Gohan getting angry again is a wild card. This is their chance.

Gohan was overwhelmingly superior to Cell, but Cell made it explicit, his goal was to kill everyone, when pushed, Cell could nuke everything from space. He had to die.

That god of gods gave his life to Goku immediately after saying that. Which he wouldn't have had to do if Goku had just let his son bring him back 7 years ago. Also, at that point, Goku wasn't capable of going back to Earth while in a dead body since his time was up.
Goku hangs out with a guy with universe spanning psychic powers. He could have shown the kids how to do the fusion dance. And Goku doesn't have to be the one to train the kids; Piccolo, or one of the other fighters could do it. After the threat was gone. Goten and Trunks were kids, and unlike Gohan, they haven't spent a year being trained for world threatening situations. What's more, Goku didn't even know them! He was placing the fate of the universe in the hands of two kids who he's spent a grand total of a few hours with, and everyone, including the two kids, died because of it.

As for the retcon, that's an out of universe explanation. This is an in-universe forum. In-universe, Goku decided he had to moral authority to thrust the fate of the universe on two unproven kids that he didn't even know, and wasn't even sure if they could pull it off.

You REALLY have a hate on for Goku, so much that you hold it against him for staying dead? He said that he was a magnet for powerful evil.

Goku could sense the power in Trunks and Goten. He saw them fight so he had a good sense of their skills. Goku's a fighting genius, not omniscient, but definitely a savant. He knew the power of fusion. The only reason Goten and Trunks died is because neither Goku or Vegeta or Kaioshin grabbed them before the world blew up, not because they were bad fighters.

Goku can only talk to Kaio for minutes at a time, not enough for the fusion dance training. Defeating Buu would've required Goku to spend more time and energy, and would've decreased the time he had left dramatically. It's difficult to say if he even had enough time to stop Buu as SS3.

I know it's an in universe discussion but you have to take into account the plot holes. There's no good in universe explanation for Goku's inconsistency. "He's a dick" isn't acceptable.

[Kamiccolo9]

That god of gods gave his life to Goku immediately after saying that. Which he wouldn't have had to do if Goku had just let his son bring him back 7 years ago. Also, at that point, Goku wasn't capable of going back to Earth while in a dead body since his time was up.
Goku hangs out with a guy with universe spanning psychic powers. He could have shown the kids how to do the fusion dance. And Goku doesn't have to be the one to train the kids; Piccolo, or one of the other fighters could do it. After the threat was gone. Goten and Trunks were kids, and unlike Gohan, they haven't spent a year being trained for world threatening situations. What's more, Goku didn't even know them! He was placing the fate of the universe in the hands of two kids who he's spent a grand total of a few hours with, and everyone, including the two kids, died because of it.

As for the retcon, that's an out of universe explanation. This is an in-universe forum. In-universe, Goku decided he had to moral authority to thrust the fate of the universe on two unproven kids that he didn't even know, and wasn't even sure if they could pull it off.

You REALLY have a hate on for Goku, so much that you hold it against him for staying dead? He said that he was a magnet for powerful evil.

Goku could sense the power in Trunks and Goten. He saw them fight so he had a good sense of their skills. Goku's a fighting genius, not omniscient, but definitely a savant. He knew the power of fusion. The only reason Goten and Trunks died is because neither Goku or Vegeta or Kaioshin grabbed them before the world blew up, not because they were bad fighters.

Goku can only talk to Kaio for minutes at a time, not enough for the fusion dance training. Defeating Buu would've required Goku to spend more time and energy, and would've decreased the time he had left dramatically. It's difficult to say if he even had enough time to stop Buu as SS3.

I know it's an in universe discussion but you have to take into account the plot holes.

I like Goku just fine. At least before the Buu Arc.
If Goku was a magnet for powerful evil, then he should have stayed and confronted that evil, instead of placing the burden of responsibility on his son, who isn't a fighter. Goku chose to protect the Earth. Gohan had the job chosen for him.
They did worse than die. They made the villain even stronger. They were terrible fighters; if they had an ounce of common sense, they would have destroyed Buu. Instead they decide to make the fight "dramatic" by holding back until 30 seconds before the fusion ends. Power means nothing if you are too stupid to use it. Goku knew nothing about these kids; he shouldn't have put the fate of the universe on their shoulders. Especially when he knows that he could do it himself.
Kaio's never shown any limits on his telepathy before. I don't know there you're getting the minutes thing from.
Goku says himself that he could have beaten Buu. There's no reason to doubt him.

[Mjb1985]

But that's the thing. It's not like Gohan can always be stronger than Cell in every situation. Although the same could be said of Goku vs Freeza so there goes my point.

Gohan has to be enraged to defeat Cell, depending your emotional state on the fate of the universe when it's not necessary is stupid.

No worse than Goku did vs Freeza. Once again, intentions are key here.

[dbzfan7]

That god of gods gave his life to Goku immediately after saying that. Which he wouldn't have had to do if Goku had just let his son bring him back 7 years ago. Also, at that point, Goku wasn't capable of going back to Earth while in a dead body since his time was up.
Goku hangs out with a guy with universe spanning psychic powers. He could have shown the kids how to do the fusion dance. And Goku doesn't have to be the one to train the kids; Piccolo, or one of the other fighters could do it. After the threat was gone. Goten and Trunks were kids, and unlike Gohan, they haven't spent a year being trained for world threatening situations. What's more, Goku didn't even know them! He was placing the fate of the universe in the hands of two kids who he's spent a grand total of a few hours with, and everyone, including the two kids, died because of it.

As for the retcon, that's an out of universe explanation. This is an in-universe forum. In-universe, Goku decided he had to moral authority to thrust the fate of the universe on two unproven kids that he didn't even know, and wasn't even sure if they could pull it off.

You REALLY have a hate on for Goku, so much that you hold it against him for staying dead? He said that he was a magnet for powerful evil.

Goku could sense the power in Trunks and Goten. He saw them fight so he had a good sense of their skills. Goku's a fighting genius, not omniscient, but definitely a savant. He knew the power of fusion. The only reason Goten and Trunks died is because neither Goku or Vegeta or Kaioshin grabbed them before the world blew up, not because they were bad fighters.

Goku can only talk to Kaio for minutes at a time, not enough for the fusion dance training. Defeating Buu would've required Goku to spend more time and energy, and would've decreased the time he had left dramatically. It's difficult to say if he even had enough time to stop Buu as SS3.

I know it's an in universe discussion but you have to take into account the plot holes.

I like Goku just fine. At least before the Buu Arc.
If Goku was a magnet for powerful evil, then he should have stayed and confronted that evil, instead of placing the burden of responsibility on his son, who isn't a fighter. Goku chose to protect the Earth. Gohan had the job chosen for him.
They did worse than die. They made the villain even stronger. They were terrible fighters; if they had an ounce of common sense, they would have destroyed Buu. Instead they decide to make the fight "dramatic" by holding back until 30 seconds before the fusion ends. Power means nothing if you are too stupid to use it. Goku knew nothing about these kids; he shouldn't have put the fate of the universe on their shoulders. Especially when he knows that he could do it himself.
Kaio's never shown any limits on his telepathy before. I don't know there you're getting the minutes thing from.
Goku says himself that he could have beaten Buu. There's no reason to doubt him.

Goku is one of my favourite characters as well if not tied for #1. But his logic is pretty flawed. I fail to see how even after Cell's death he still wants Gohan to take over for him and doesn't think "Gee wouldn't the bad guys keep coming anyways as they would have no way knowing if Goku was dead or not." He says Gohan is stronger and has nothing left to teach him, yet the whole Cell games didn't open his eyes to what could go wrong.

[ABED]

If Goku was a magnet for powerful evil, then he should have stayed and confronted that evil, instead of placing the burden of responsibility on his son, who isn't a fighter. Goku chose to protect the Earth. Gohan had the job chosen for him.
They did worse than die. They made the villain even stronger. They were terrible fighters; if they had an ounce of common sense, they would have destroyed Buu. Instead they decide to make the fight "dramatic" by holding back until 30 seconds before the fusion ends. Power means nothing if you are too stupid to use it. Goku knew nothing about these kids; he shouldn't have put the fate of the universe on their shoulders. Especially when he knows that he could do it himself.
Kaio's never shown any limits on his telepathy before. I don't know there you're getting the minutes thing from.
Goku says himself that he could have beaten Buu. There's no reason to doubt him.

Gohan was far stronger than he was, and he thought the evil was going after him. If they went after him, at least it would be in the afterlife. And even if Gohan wasn't a fighter by nature, there's little reason why he couldn't have trained and studied. He didn't, he slacked off. Gohan may not have been a fighter, but he accepted the mantle. At some point, the training wheels had to come off, Goku can't always be there to save the day.

They weren't terrible fighters, just cocky, there's a difference. Gotenks is for all intents and purposes a different being, and neither Trunks nor Goten were cocky, green, sure.

Your point about Kaio is pure conjecture. I got the minutes thing from the fact that Kaio doesn't typically talk or let people talk for that long and he only lets If it's as you say it is, then that creates a plot hole because then there would've been little fear of having enough time to teach the dance, he could've just taught from the other world.

Goku also told Piccolo he couldn't beat Buu. The best explanation Toriyama could give was that he lied, but why would Goku have lied about that?

Gohan completely outclassed Cell. The only thing holding him back was his emotions. With a little training, he could've fixed that problem. He didn't have to be enraged to defeat Cell, he needed to be enraged to turn SS2, which after that point was completely under his control. Also, his sudden desire to not want to fight came completely out of nowhere. It was a Toriyama trying to create drama.

[Kamiccolo9]

If Goku was a magnet for powerful evil, then he should have stayed and confronted that evil, instead of placing the burden of responsibility on his son, who isn't a fighter. Goku chose to protect the Earth. Gohan had the job chosen for him.
They did worse than die. They made the villain even stronger. They were terrible fighters; if they had an ounce of common sense, they would have destroyed Buu. Instead they decide to make the fight "dramatic" by holding back until 30 seconds before the fusion ends. Power means nothing if you are too stupid to use it. Goku knew nothing about these kids; he shouldn't have put the fate of the universe on their shoulders. Especially when he knows that he could do it himself.
Kaio's never shown any limits on his telepathy before. I don't know there you're getting the minutes thing from.
Goku says himself that he could have beaten Buu. There's no reason to doubt him.

Gohan was far stronger than he was, and he thought the evil was going after him. If they went after him, at least it would be in the afterlife. And even if Gohan wasn't a fighter by nature, there's little reason why he couldn't have trained and studied. He didn't, he slacked off. Gohan may not have been a fighter, but he accepted the mantle. At some point, the training wheels had to come off, Goku can't always be there to save the day.

They weren't terrible fighters, just cocky, there's a difference. Gotenks is for all intents and purposes a different being, and neither Trunks nor Goten were cocky, green, sure.

Your point about Kaio is pure conjecture. I got the minutes thing from the fact that Kaio doesn't typically talk or let people talk for that long and he only lets If it's as you say it is, then that creates a plot hole because then there would've been little fear of having enough time to teach the dance, he could've just taught from the other world.

Goku also told Piccolo he couldn't beat Buu. The best explanation Toriyama could give was that he lied, but why would Goku have lied about that?

Gohan completely outclassed Cell. The only thing holding him back was his emotions. With a little training, he could've fixed that problem. He didn't have to be enraged to defeat Cell, he needed to be enraged to turn SS2, which after that point was completely under his control. Also, his sudden desire to not want to fight came completely out of nowhere. It was a Toriyama trying to create drama.

It's not Gohan's responsibility. How were any of the people that would go after Goku get to the afterlife? If they wanted revenge against Goku, they'd go after his family. What was Gohan supposed to say? "No dad, you've decided that you can't protect the world like you've always done, but I'm just gonna let it all go to hell." Goku made it his responsibility to protect the world. Then he decided that it's too dangerous for him to be there, as if there is anything that is reasonably capable of endangering him, and dumps all the responsibility on Gohan so he can go chill with the other fighters in the otherworld.
Trunks was extremely cocky, and Goten did whatever Trunks said. And if he didn't know what Gotenks would be like, why risk the fate of the universe by putting it in the hands of an unknown fighter, when Goku is fully capable of ending the threat himself?
Kaio never seemed especially strained while communicating. Putting limits on his telepathy is pure conjecture. And fusion wouldn't have been necessary anyway if Goku had just taken responsibility. He is the one that caused Buu to be released. He chose to fight Vegeta instead of just ending the fight before Buu could be released. It was his job to clean up his mess. If he had listened to Kaioshin to begin with, none of that would have happened. Vegeta wouldn't have gotten mad at Gohan, Babidi wouldn't have seen that he had evil in him, he wouldn't have been possessed, and Buu wouldn't have woke up.
Goku lied because he decided to pass the buck onto his and Vegeta's kids, without having a clue what would happen.
Gohan did not outclass Cell after he came back. If anything, Cell outclassed him. He broke Gohan's arm with a casual blast, and was winning the Kamehameha duel until Vegeta distracted him.

[Kid Buu]

Toriyama put that line how Goku could have beaten Fat Buu in the manga for a reason. It's not like he NEEDED to put that line in there for story's sake, Toriyama wanted it to be established Goku could have beaten Byy but wanted the kids to do it.

[mAcChaos]

I don't really buy that Goku could have beaten Fat Buu alone.

It's just a prediction he makes, but half of those with regards to Buu end up being wrong. How could he know until he starts to actually fight to the finish? Buu regenerates so much, how could anyone who was roughly around his level beat him? You have to either totally outclass him or hit him with something like that giant Spirit Bomb.

What really would have happened, is what happened to Goku when he fought Kid Buu. He would put up a good fight for a while, but just like Majin Vegeta against Fat Buu, Fat Buu would just shrug it off and be unharmed while Goku got more and more tired.