Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

[ABED]

Not really. It's not like I'm cheering for people like George, HItler, and other people who does similar things in real life. I cheering for a villains that is brutal as fuck. Him impaling Krillin has to be one of my favorite anime-manga moments EVER. Just crushing GOhan and killing people for no reason is what makes Freeza such a great character. We need more villains like him.

What's great about him torturing a great guy like Kuririn? It adds to the viciousness and drama, but it's not something to cheer for.

Yes, his brutality makes him a POS, hence a great villain, but that's different than cheering.

Have you watched wrestling? Stone Cold was a heel but he was doing so well at his job that people cheered him. Hence whyhe was turned face at WM16 against Bret Hart. Another example is The Rock and Cm Punk. Cm Punk made fun of a legit heart attack and kayfabed mocked a dead guy(Paul). He still got cheered. Being a great villain causes people to cheer for you.

I admired his toughness, he didn't give up, and he didn't whine like Bret's character, but wasn't overly fond of when he stunned guys I liked. I liked the Rock having good matches but I didn't cheer him as a heel. I didn't cheer him against Mankind or Austin. I did cheer when he stood up to the Corporation. Wrestling is different because I don't think the people are cheering the actions (if they are cheering mocking Paul Bearer, then shame on them, I would hope they don't people don't cheer villains doing evil things like 4 on 1 beat downs), so much as cheering the talent.

You mean WM13, not 16, just FYI.

[TheGmGoken]

f they are cheering mocking Paul Bearer, then shame on them, I would hope they don't people don't cheer villains doing evil things like 4 on 1 beat downs)

Punk was just that good of a heel. He also mocked Jerry The King's heart attack. Still got cheered. Yes Punk is talented but when he's heel he wanted to be booed so bad. With the S.E.S it worked cause he was bootleg Jesus but no matter what he does now he can't be booed. When he mocked Paul he was cheered. You could hear CM PUNK chants over UNDERTAKER. The 4 on 1 attacks.....one word The Shield. They get cheers all the time. If you do good on your job as a heel/villain just like Freeza did...I will cheer you. Freeza = the perfect villain.

[ABED]

f they are cheering mocking Paul Bearer, then shame on them, I would hope they don't people don't cheer villains doing evil things like 4 on 1 beat downs)

Punk was just that good of a heel. He also mocked Jerry The King's heart attack. Still got cheered. Yes Punk is talented but when he's heel he wanted to be booed so bad. With the S.E.S it worked cause he was bootleg Jesus but no matter what he does now he can't be booed. When he mocked Paul he was cheered. You could hear CM PUNK chants over UNDERTAKER. The 4 on 1 attacks.....one word The Shield. They get cheers all the time. If you do good on your job as a heel/villain just like Freeza did...I will cheer you. Freeza = the perfect villain.

I think the fans today are a bunch of "smarks" who like to be defiant and cheer heels these days. Sometimes it's obnoxious, like they do it for the sake of it.

I'm not denying he got cheered, just that I find it ridiculous.

The cheer says you approve of the action. It's not the same as finding a villain interesting. It's basically "Yay, keep doing that!"

If Punk couldn't get booed, he's a crappy heel.

[jjgp1112]

I'm sure everyone rooted for Cell against Mr. Satan. Outside of that, I was pleased when Vegeta kicked Dende when he flew off rather than healing him, and when Android 18 beat the shit out of Vegeta since he was acting like such a pompous ass. Double for when Cell beat him up.

[TheGmGoken]

I think the fans today are a bunch of "smarks" who like to be defiant and cheer heels these days. Sometimes it's obnoxious, like they do it for the sake of it.

No that's cause the faces SUCK at their job. So we have to cheer the bad guys. Look at Bryan,Kane, and Dolph. THey're faces and we cheer them. Hell we cheer SANTINO. The other faces(not counting Punk since he's a tweener IMO) are bad at their job. Such as MIZ.

If Punk couldn't get booed, he's a crappy heel.

So Stone Cold, Undertaker, Randy Orton(Cheered over Cena..not saying much), Dolph Ziggler, and The Shield are bad heels? No. They're doing their job and people like it. Even causal fans and kids cheer for the Shield. Punk mocked a dead guy, a heart attack that wasn't kayfabe, told the smarks "Fuck you", mocked Stone Cold, and even dropped the URN and could't get booed. NOT HIS FAULT that people love bad guys now. Freeza was just an amazing villain. He caught my eye. So I cheered for all the actions he did. He was just amazingly written. So by your logic. We can only cheer for the heroes because the villains do their job and act evil? This isn't Barney.

[ABED]

I think the fans today are a bunch of "smarks" who like to be defiant and cheer heels these days. Sometimes it's obnoxious, like they do it for the sake of it.

No that's cause the faces SUCK at their job. So we have to cheer the bad guys. Look at Bryan,Kane, and Dolph. THey're faces and we cheer them. Hell we cheer SANTINO. The other faces(not counting Punk since he's a tweener IMO) are bad at their job. Such as MIZ.

If Punk couldn't get booed, he's a crappy heel.

So Stone Cold, Undertaker, Randy Orton(Cheered over Cena..not saying much), Dolph Ziggler, and The Shield are bad heels? No. They're doing their job and people like it. Even causal fans and kids cheer for the Shield. Punk mocked a dead guy, a heart attack that wasn't kayfabe, told the smarks "Fuck you", mocked Stone Cold, and even dropped the URN and could't get booed. NOT HIS FAULT that people love bad guys now. Freeza was just an amazing villain. He caught my eye. So I cheered for all the actions he did. He was just amazingly written. So by your logic. We can only cheer for the heroes because the villains do their job and act evil? This isn't Barney.

Yes, a villain isn't supposed to be liked, Taker is historically a babyface, and Stone Cold wasn't hated as a heel, hence a bad heel. If your job is to get people to hate you so much they are willing to pay to see you get beat, and people want to be you, you aren't doing your job, you should turn babyface, or do something to make people hate you. JBL, Roddy Piper, and The Midnight Express were all much better heels than the guys you named. Flair was a great heel until he started getting cheered, then it was like going against the grain. It's also the fault of the babyface for not being compelling. Cena gets a mixed reaction, but the contingent that loves him pay to see him, and make him the most valuable star in the company.

Freeza is an amazing villain and interesting, doesn't mean I would cheer him on and say, "Go Freeza, kill the Z team!"

I didn't say you can only cheer, but a cheer means something, it's saying "I approve of your actions, keep doing it". I like when villains kill other bad guys.

No, this isn't Barney (is that show even on the air) but there is such a thing as morality. I'm not arguing that Freeza's not a great villain, I'm pointing out that cheers are encouragement. It's the audience urging something or someone on. Are you really urging on Punk to dump (fictional) ashes of Paul Bearer? Are you for encouraging Freeza to impale Kuririn? Cheering is a form of praise, but next to nothing Freeza does is praise worthy, you don't have to boo him but I don't think cheering a sadistic, psychopath is a good thing. I'm not saying you're a bad person but I do think it's a bad sign that so many cheer villains and think they are more interesting than heroes. It can't just be due to uncompelling heroes.

I thought Joker's pencil trick was awesome but it would've had completely different connotations if he had done it to someone the audience liked, such as Gordon.

[TheGmGoken]

Code: Select all

Yes, a villain isn't supposed to be liked, Taker is historically a babyface,

It's up to you if you like someone or not. P Btw Taker was cheered as a heel. It wad during a time when heels was rarely cheered.

Stone Cold wasn't hated as a heel, hence a bad heel.

He was a good heel. Did you watched his dvd? People started appreciating how good he was at his job so they cheered him. Let's take Mr.AT for example. Before you read DB(Taking to account that you never watched it) you like okay let's see if this good or not. You start to like what he's doing with the manga. Same can be applied to Heels and Villains of a series.

If your job is to get people to hate you so much they are willing to pay to see you get beat, and people want to be you, you aren't doing your job, you should turn babyface,

Then "The Shield" should be faces by now. Just saying.

JBL, Roddy Piper, and The Midnight Express were all much better heels than the guys you named.

Roddy Piper was a great heel. I can honestly say I mixed him. Booed and cheered. him. Booed out of respect and cheer when I'm at home. Didn't find JBL that good.

Freeza is an amazing villain and interesting, doesn't mean I would cheer him on and say, "Go Freeza, kill the Z team!"

My comment said I cheered Freeza till Goku arrived.

I didn't say you can only cheer, but a cheer means something, it's saying "I approve of your actions, keep doing it". I like when villains kill other bad guys.

Villains killing other villains is meh. Villains killing heroes is worth cheering for IMO. Doing bad things since you're SUPPOSE TO DO BAD THINGS means you're doing the right thing. I cheered for the Green Globin when he "killed" Gwen Stacey. Thought that was epic. Really shapes up the story.

I'm pointing out that cheers are encouragement. It's the audience urging something or someone on. Are you really urging on Punk to dump (fictional) ashes of Paul Bearer? Are you for encouraging Freeza to impale Kuririn?

I'm urging Punk to do what heels do. I just can't boo Punk. THere only a few stars I'll cheer over HeelPunk(Since he's such a great heel). They're good faces. As I said most faces today SUCK at being face(ADR, HHH, and Miz ect) which causes fan to cheer heel. Yes I did cheer for Freeza impaling Krillin. Such a great ting for a villain to do. Amazing.

Are you seriously saying even through we like the villains we can't cheer for the, because they're bad? So let's say I cheer for Vegeta ever since he turned Goku. As soon as he turns Majin I'm suppose to say BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. No I'm going to cheer him still. Freeza is a great villain. So I cheer for him to do evil things.

[ABED]

Austin was a great wrestler, he was interesting and new, he was badass, he said what was on his mind, and in the era of goody two shoes that seemed fake, Austin felt genuine.

What did I never watch? Austin's DVD, which one? I've seen em all.

JBL was a great heel because people booed him.

Villains are supposed to do bad things, if they don't, they aren't villains. Freeza was a villain because he murdered mountains of innocent people. He was interesting because he had a cool look, and a calm almost polite demeanor that was in opposition to his violent, sadistic, evil nature. A great thing to have for a villain. GG killing Gwen wasn't a cheer worthy moment, there was nothing moral about what he did. What made it interesting is that he killed the superhero's girlfriend, which was interesting and unique for the time.

Yes, I guess I am saying that it's not a good thing to cheer on villains for being evil. They aren't doing good things, many of which aren't even remotely admirable. Villains should be pieces of shit. You don't have to say anything. You don't have to boo or cheer. What are you saying, "yay goblin, murder her! Cause Spider-Man pain!"

There are plenty of great good guys to cheer, such as Austin against McMahon, HBK, Steamboat, Goku, Piccolo, etc.

[SSJmole]

What's to cheer about Majin Vegeta for? He's a whinny spoiled arrogant dick that can't take it that his father told him he was the strongest, and it ended up not being true.

I think so many are convinced "the devil plays the best tunes" so they write uninteresting heroes.

It was Goku vs Vegeta (something I had had been waiting to happen again) and Vegeta is my favourite so I cheered. Everyone's different. (Also LOVE your using abed for name and pic. Love community)

[Kamiccolo9]

Yes, I guess I am saying that it's not a good thing to cheer on villains for being evil. They aren't doing good things, many of which aren't even remotely admirable. Villains should be pieces of shit. You don't have to say anything. You don't have to boo or cheer. What are you saying, "yay goblin, murder her! Cause Spider-Man pain!"

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The best villains, in my opinion, are the ones you can identify with. Magneto from X-Men comes to mind, as does Mr. Freeze. When written well, of course. And then you have "villains" like Galactus, who are more a force of nature than an evil entity, but still commit atrocities. These types, to me, are much more fascinating than the "evil for the sake of being evil" villains that Dragon Ball likes to produce.

[TheGmGoken]

There are plenty of great good guys to cheer,

Modern Day is what I speaking of. Back in the day faces were cool so was the good guys hence why I asked did people cheer any DBZ villains cause old school villains > modern day IMO(Some exception). Also you didn't read my comment. I said I cheered Goku over Freeza

JBL was a great heel because people booed him.

John Cena must be the greatest heel ever

Yes, I guess I am saying that it's not a good thing to cheer on villains for being evil. They aren't doing good things, many of which aren't even remotely admirable. Villains should be pieces of shit. You don't have to say anything. You don't have to boo or cheer. What are you saying, "yay goblin, murder her! Cause Spider-Man pain!"

So cause I like the villain and like the fact they do evil things(Cause that's what they're suppose to do), I can't cheer them. Bullshit. Just saying. You are entitled to cheer for anyone you want. Bad or Good. I guess since I cheered for Vegeta in the Android up and Majin Boo arc as soon as he turned Majin I'm suppose to boo him.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The best villains, in my opinion, are the ones you can identify with. Magneto from X-Men comes to mind, as does Mr. Freeze. When written well, of course. And then you have "villains" like Galactus, who are more a force of nature than an evil entity, but still commit atrocities. These types, to me, are much more fascinating than the "evil for the sake of being evil" villains that Dragon Ball likes to produce.

Magneto was decent and Mr Freeze was great on their best days. I hate Galactus. He's boring IMO. Well to me Freeza wasn't evil just for being evil. To me that was the Androids and Majin Boo. But Boo was more of force of nature as you said about Galactus.

[ABED]

I'm not arguing that villains can't have pathos, I think there's many different types of villains. The Joker is pure evil (depending on the writer) and I find that incredibly interesting, and then there's Magneto, who I can feel for because he was put in a concentration camp, hell, I even dug when he got revenge on Shaw in First Class, but I don't cheer when he tries to obliterate then entire homo sapien species. He has sympathetic attributes, but he also does many things that makes him a piece of crap. There's a difference between finding someone interesting and cheering.

I'm not saying you have to Boo Vegeta, but would you cheer him killing those innocent spectators?

By the way, Cena's still a babyface because a large segment of the audience absolutely loves the guy.

I did read your comment about GOku vs Freeza, I was just using the Z Team as all encompassing and it's less typing, but I acknowledge your point.

I never said you aren't entitled to cheer for who you want to, but it seems odd that you would cheer (ie approve) of despicable actions like torturing a good person like Kuririn.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the cheering for evil thing. I totally get enjoying a villain but rooting for the villain and cheering feels like odd behavior.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not arguing that villains can't have pathos, I think there's many different types of villains. The Joker is pure evil (depending on the writer) and I find that incredibly interesting, and then there's Magneto, who I can feel for because he was put in a concentration camp, hell, I even dug when he got revenge on Shaw in First Class, but I don't cheer when he tries to obliterate then entire homo sapien species. He has sympathetic attributes, but he also does many things that makes him a piece of crap. There's a difference between finding someone interesting and cheering.

I was thinking more along the lines of comic Magneto actually (although Ian Mckellan is a near perfect actor, and I loved his Magneto, while Fassbender was almost as good).
This Magneto had his entire life destroyed by humans. The Nazis tortured him, his wife was killed by a human mob, his children betrayed him to side with humans, etc. And still, for the most part, he wasn't trying to wipe out the human race. One of his main goals was to create a new home for mutants, which he did with Astroid M and Genosha. At some points, it seems like the true villains are the governments who keep persecuting his kind. Magneto is hardly a good guy, but he is sympathetic, which somewhat blurs the line between "villain" and "antagonist." I often found myself hoping that he'd win out ahead of the United States Government in many comics.
I also like villains like the Joker, who don't need a reason to commit atrocities, but the "villain out of necessity" status that characters like Magneto and Mr. Freeze, and, in a way, Baby from GT have makes for a much more compelling character.

Sometimes though, I don't want a complex moral drama, and instead want a good, old fashion, good versus evil knock-down drag-out slugfest. Which is when I turn to Dragon Ball

[ABED]

So much of it is in execution, a tragic past and pathos are great in theory but it can be terrible if the stories aren't interesting and they are of course much more interesting if the hero is compelling, thus making for great conflict and drama. Baby's story is interesting but it's not as well executed as Freeza or Piccolo Daimao. Freeza's more stereotypically evil, but what makes them interesting is the performance and the emotion, as well as the kick ass fights.

I think Magneto was more interesting in First Class. Sir Ian is great but the character feels more layered in First Class.

I have a passing familiarity with the X-Men comics. I've read only a handful, but I've seen the 90s cartoon and the movies.

[Kamiccolo9]

So much of it is in execution, a tragic past and pathos are great in theory but it can be terrible if the stories aren't interesting and they are of course much more interesting if the hero is compelling, thus making for great conflict and drama. Baby's story is interesting but it's not as well executed as Freeza or Piccolo Daimao. Freeza's more stereotypically evil, but what makes them interesting is the performance and the emotion, as well as the kick ass fights.

I think Magneto was more interesting in First Class. Sir Ian is great but the character feels more layered in First Class.

I have a passing familiarity with the X-Men comics. I've read only a handful, but I've seen the 90s cartoon and the movies.

That is very true. A good writer can work wonders with complex villains, and there have been quite a few excellent X-Men writers. There have also been some very, very bad Magneto stories as well thoug, like "Eve of Destruction," where Grant Morrison, who didn't like the complex, morally questionable Magneto, turned him into a "terrorist twat" (his own words).
I thought Baby was a decent first villain for GT. And seeing as he was one of the few "complex" villains we see, it almost made up for the subpar writing. At the very least it's an interesting idea. A villain who isn't that strong on his own, and relies on making the good guys fight each other is a nice twist for Dragon Ball.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I cheered Majin Vegeta VS Goku

Not only does Vegeta fight on equal footing and possibly have an edge in the fight, but then he restrains Goku and slaps him with his pimp hand.

[TheGmGoken]

Eve of Destruction," where Grant Morrison, who didn't like the complex, morally questionable Magneto, turned him into a "terrorist twat"

I hated that. My least favorite thing ever. Seriously.

I thought Baby was a decent first villain for GT.

Bebi had potential. I admit. When I heard his backstory and everything about the Tuffles. I admit. I thought he was going to be badass.

I'm not saying you have to Boo Vegeta, but would you cheer him killing those innocent spectators?

Cause it's evil and badass the way he did it. Forcing the main character to fight you in that manner is quite nice to see. It's awesome for a villain to be...well a villain.

By the way, Cena's still a babyface because a large segment of the audience absolutely loves the guy.

From 2010 - present...not really. He just sells the most shirts and armbands.

I never said you aren't entitled to cheer for who you want to, but it seems odd that you would cheer (ie approve) of despicable actions like torturing a good person like Kuririn.

As said earlier. Most people love when villains actually act like a villain and just be brutal as fuck to the heroes.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the cheering for evil thing. I totally get enjoying a villain but rooting for the villain and cheering feels like odd behavior.

You're late. IT hasn't been old since the late 90's.

Edit: I did cheer for Boo over Gotenks through. Hated that bastard.

[ABED]

There was nothing badass about killing those spectators, it was evil douchebaggery. Getting dropped on your head, finishing the match and then walking out of the arena is badass. Yes, Vegeta was a villain and a great villainous moment, but not a badass, nor was that an act to root for. Surviving the Genkidama was badass, though. It was a "piece of shit" moment that villains often do.

People buy Cena's t-shirts in droves, but they hate him? Someone clearly loves the guy, mostly kids and women.

Again, there's a big difference between liking when villains act like villains and cheering for them.

[TheGmGoken]

There was nothing badass about killing those spectators, it was evil douchebaggery.

His handmotion and face afterwards is what made the scene. The villains facial expression when they do things plays a major role.

Yes, Vegeta was a villain and a great villainous moment, but not a badass, nor was that an act to root for. Surviving the Genkidama was badass

It was badass as said earlier his face and motion. The GenkiDama was weaken which made the scene look less badass. Him fighting afterwards was badass.

People buy Cena's t-shirts in droves, but they hate him? Someone clearly loves the guy, mostly kids and women.

You'll be shocked. People buy shirts they hate. Stupid I know..but people do it.

Again, there's a big difference between liking when villains act like villains and cheering for them.

I never said there wasn't. I'm saying that I cheered for the villains cause of these acts. Actually not to sound like I'm following the crowd but it's quite common sense the late 90's.

[ABED]

I am a wrestling fans, and there's no way Cena sells that much merch if he doesn't have a sizable fanbase.

The shit eating grin on Vegeta's face was great, but not badass. How he destroyed 19 was badass.

The genkidama was weakened but that's still a potent attack, especially after everything he had been through. To survive all that was definitely badass.