Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

A lot of you believe that Goku is the strongest by the end of the manga. Just stop and think for a minute if you really believe that Goku, a guy who admits that SSJ Gotenks will be stronger than him can break that gap in ten years when it took him seven years just to achieve SSJ3, and that was just in other world with gravitational training. It took him that long just to become comparable to pre Rosat SSJ Gotenks.
If we assume that Post rosat Base Gotenks managed to surpass his SSJ pre level, then that means Goku managed to surpass Base Gotenks, SSJ Gotenks, SSJ2 Gotenks (he skipped this and went beyond it to SSJ3), SSJ3 Gotenks, and then Ultimate Gohan who is much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, an opponent in Evil Boo's league who Goku admits is far weaker than.
To me, the gap is just too gigantic here. The boo saga is the first time in the series where the power gaps compared to other characters were this gigantic.

[TheGmGoken]

I think he surpassed neither of them. Unless one can say GOtenks got weaker due to lack of training. Goku has only been doing Earth training which doesn't help much now. So unless he does 50,000 gravity with while sparring with Vegeta he would't become stronger than Gotenks and Gohan. Through I'm sure if he fought Gohan that they would use the Gohan lack of skills excuse.

[hleV]

Hardly. I believe that only happened after the end of the series, thanks to Oob being a good sparring partner.
This only applies to Boo arc Gotenks and Gohan, of course. I have no idea whether they lost strength in the 10 years of peace.

[Kakarot88]

If you are including Battle of Gods then...Goku clearly surpassed them with his new form. But even if he did not gain said power all the ads, promotional materials, interviews, characters in the movie, etc. all hype up the villain as "a being that surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku and all other villains," so if that is a big deal then logically Goku would have to be stronger as of Battle of Gods even before his new Super Saiyan God form otherwise the characters and ads etc. would be like a "being that surpasses Gohan/Gotenks and all other villains!"

[MDSTSSJ]

I do believe!

Goku is not training in Earth as many people think after the defeat of Majin Boo. In BoG we see Kakarotto training in the OtherWorld. Goku is not stupid, he knows that if he wants to increase his powers being alone, he should train elsewhere and not on Earth.

Goku never stopped training and fighting in his entire life. After Boo´s arc, 10 years have passed and is quite conceivable to me that he is the most powerful.

And I'm ignoring the fact that Goku is turned extremely strong in the Battle of Gods Movie.

Then, Oob appears and Goku takes him to train together. With a sparring like Oob, the power increase can be huge for Kakarotto.

One of the things I like about Goku is that all his power has been won with hard work. He deserves to be the strongest of all.

[Kaboom]

I think it'd take Goku a couple years of training with Oob to match and surpass Gotenks and Gohan. Once GT's time period rolls around (though not necessarily GT itself), he could very well be top dog again with Super Saiyan 3.

[mAcChaos]

Gohan was always said to have the most potential, so from that perspective, nobody should ever be able to become stronger than Gohan after his Buu power up.

Also I never thought that base Gotenks was stronger than his pre-RoSaT SSJ form. That would be a ridiculously huge powerup. No other Saiyan ever has that kind of power in base.

[Mjb1985]

Ultimate Gohan is far beyond Gohan's maximum potential. Gohan's maximum potential should be far beyond Goku's maximum potential.

So Goku can never catch up to Ultimate Gohan imo.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I do believe!

Goku is not training in Earth as many people think after the defeat of Majin Boo. In BoG we see Kakarotto training in the OtherWorld. Goku is not stupid, he knows that if he wants to increase his powers being alone, he should train elsewhere and not on Earth.

Goku never stopped training and fighting in his entire life. After Boo´s arc, 10 years have passed and is quite conceivable to me that he is the most powerful.

And I'm ignoring the fact that Goku is turned extremely strong in the Battle of Gods Movie.

Then, Oob appears and Goku takes him to train together. With a sparring like Oob, the power increase can be huge for Kakarotto.

One of the things I like about Goku is that all his power has been won with hard work. He deserves to be the strongest of all.

BoG has too many plot errors for me to even count it. For one, doesn't it state or imply that Freeza > Base Goku? Doesn't it mention Tarble? An OVA where it shows SSJ1 Goku > SSJ1 Gotenks? Lol.

[hleV]

Where are you all coming up with this "potential" thing from? If you mean hidden powers, then it doesn't mean that Goku cannot surpass that. If SS3 is 400x base and "draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits", then it's quite easy to assume that with training and getting stronger, hidden power capacity increases proportionally.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Gohan was always said to have the most potential, so from that perspective, nobody should ever be able to become stronger than Gohan after his Buu power up.

Also I never thought that base Gotenks was stronger than his pre-RoSaT SSJ form. That would be a ridiculously huge powerup. No other Saiyan ever has that kind of power in base.

Most potential yes, but why should that mean Goku wouldn't be able to surpass it. With that logic, he can't surpass SSJ2 Gohan from Cell saga because he unlocked that through his hidden potential. All the post ritual did was bring out all of his hidden potential completely and stack it up with his SSJ2. But as for Post rosat Base Gotenks :

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”


It took Gohan nearly a year just to achieve SSJ2, but this fusion let their base power up greatly in 15 days and Piccolo implies that they have gotten that strong in Base.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Ultimate Gohan is far beyond Gohan's maximum potential. Gohan's maximum potential should be far beyond Goku's maximum potential.

So Goku can never catch up to Ultimate Gohan imo.

Where was that even stated or implied that he can't surpass it?

[hleV]

Ultimate Gohan is far beyond Gohan's maximum potential. Gohan's maximum potential should be far beyond Goku's maximum potential.

So Goku can never catch up to Ultimate Gohan imo.

Where was that even stated or implied that he can't surpass it?

Logically, nothing can go above its maximum potential. So if Gohan's maximum potential is higher than Goku's, and if Rou Kaioshin made Gohan as strong as he could ever potentially become, then Goku could never surpass Gohan.

However, it's hidden power that was drawn out for Gohan, which is a completely different thing.

[Mjb1985]

Because Gohan has been suggested to have way more potential than Goku as is and Ultimate Gohan is way beyond what even Gohan is capable of.

Goku can train all he wants he won't surpass Ultimate Gohan.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Because Gohan has been suggested to have way more potential than Goku as is and Ultimate Gohan is way beyond what even Gohan is capable of.

Goku can train all he wants he won't surpass Ultimate Gohan.

Having way more potential doesn't mean you can't surpass it. Otherwise with that logic, Goku would not have been able to surpass Gohan when Gohan unleashed his fury on Raditz, or after unleashing SSJ2 through his hidden potential. I believe Goku did surpass Gohan at some point. I just believe he surpassed him after the end of the manga when he is sparring with Oob. Or at least think it's a possibility. I mean he did want to train with Oob because Oob was intended to be the new protector of Earth after Goku.

[hleV]

I like how everyone's ignoring me.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan can be surpassed through hard training. I'm sure Goku could have taken Oob to the limit and a good sparring partners brings out more power. So by the time he's done with Oob I suggest that Goku SSJ3 form is only slightly stronger than Mystic Gohan

[Mjb1985]

You are thinking about accessible potential. Ultimate Gohan is beyond his dormant potential.

Gohan's dormant potential is beyond Goku's dormant potential. No amount of hard training can change that.

Hidden power is just a mention of Gohan's dormant potential.

[hleV]

Yeah, keep talking nonsense when you could just read what I wrote and be done with it.

Rou Kaioshin didn't unlock Gohan's potential, he unlocked his dormant power (aka the power which is already there in him, just inaccessible). They're not the same thing.

[Kaboom]

I think the problem is everyone's using different terms for different things. Here's what I use and how I think it works...

Dormant Power - This is something that everybody has some amount of at any given time, but that half-Saiyans have a lot of. It's power hidden beneath the surface that can't be accessed in normal ways. Gohan normally brings it out through his rage boosts. Assorted elders and wizards can bring it out with magic or whatever, sometimes creating even more to manifest on top of it.

If Dragon Ball were an RPG, then dormant power would be like some sort of hidden upper limit of your "STR" stat that you can only make use of with special abilities and lucky dice rolls and stuff like that.

Potential - I use and see this word used as a much more vague concept, and less tangible or measurable than dormant power. Someone's "potential" regards their natural ki proficiency and rate of growth. It only has to do with someone's lifelong limits in the sense that, "he has more potential for growth than I do, thus by the time we both die, he'll be stronger than me." Otherwise, I don't believe in some sort of absolute wall that you can never surpass once you hit it, and neither can anyone else if they have "less potential" than you.

To use the RPG example again, someone's "potential" would be the rate at which they gain Experience Points, or perhaps an ability to gain Exp in special ways that other characters don't have.