SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Mjb1985]

I have Mr. Buu = Fat Buu considering Vegeta's concern that another Kid Buu could be birthed from him.

[RandomGuy96]

I have Pure Buu and Pure Evil Buu as exact equals now, due to my theory that Good Buu and Mr. Buu aren't the same. The Kaioshin power that fused with Kid Buu's essence to form Evil Buu didn't hinder him, but it also didn't help, hence why some Kaioshin power is still unusable inside Super Buu (remember, Buff > Super). Unlike the reat of the Kaioshin power (i.e. Good Buu) that bit of power could only be used by Mr. Buu, who took it after the split due to an automatic rearrangement of Buu's body, leaving nothing but Kid Buu.

I don't think there's a difference between Good and Mr. Buu. Basically, how I have it is
Pure Buu-12
Buff Buu-20
Fat Buu-Grows stronger as he gets angrier. Max is 17.
Mr. Buu-11
Gray Buu-12
Super Buu-17
South Kaioshin-8
Dai Kaioshin-3
Works for me, more or less. Like I've said before in other threads, I don't put much stock in consistent power gaps. We've seen complete and utter stomps with minor gaps before. Mr. Buu was still in Fat Buu's unstable mindset when Gray Buu appeared. We see in the Vegeta-Dodoria fight that when one is panicked, he can't fight very well, even with a small gap. Same with Mr. Buu against Pure Buu. He had just been eaten, ripped loose from his host, thrown up due to an emotional conflict, and woke up in the middle of a fight. What's more, he was fighting a guy who was not only stronger, but crazy, unpredictable, and capable of regenerating from everything Mr. Buu could throw at him. And he still managed to put up a decent fight. Thus the small gap.

I can't say I agree with Mr. Buu being that strong. Dodoria is a special case since he may have lost the courage component of his ki, and exposed his back to his opponent. Mr. Buu just attacked and got overpowered. I can't see him being much closer to Kid Buu than Freeza was to Goku, or Super Buu was to Gotenks (and IIRC you have that as a x1.2 gap which seems about right). I'd reccommend at least decreasing Grand Kaioshin to a two; he seems unnecessarily strong here. That would IMO make everything fit much bettter, with Mr. Buu being only 83% of Kid Buu and Super Buu being 90% of Buff Buu (a small difference was implied between those two).

I also consider the anime sequences of that fight to be canon. As in what was happening off screen in the manga. Mr. Buu landed more hits there, but he was still being annihilated. I have it:

Super Buu- 57
-Piccolo absorbed- 58
-Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 61
-Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed- 128
-Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed- 161
Evil Buu- 36
Good Buu- 21

Kid Buu- 36
-South Kaioshin absorbed: 63

Mr. Buu- 29
South Kaioshin- 27
Grand Kaioshin- 2

Fat Buu- varies
-Initial- 6.5
-First Power Up- 9.75
-Second Power Up- 13
-Full Potential- 57

[Kamiccolo9]

I can't say I agree with Mr. Buu being that strong. Dodoria is a special case since he may have lost the courage component of his ki, and exposed his back to his opponent. Mr. Buu just attacked and got overpowered. I can't see him being much closer to Kid Buu than Freeza was to Goku, or Super Buu was to Gotenks (and IIRC you have that as a x1.2 gap which seems about right). I'd reccommend at least decreasing Grand Kaioshin to a two; he seems unnecessarily strong here. That would IMO make everything fit much bettter, with Mr. Buu being only 83% of Kid Buu and Super Buu being 90% of Buff Buu (a small difference was implied between those two).

I also consider the anime sequences of that fight to be canon. As in what was happening off screen in the manga. Mr. Buu landed more hits there, but he was still being annihilated. I have it:

Buuhan- 161
Buutenks- 127
Buff Buu- 63
Buuccolo- 61
Super Buu- 57
Kid Buu- 36 = Evil Buu
Mr. Buu- 29
South Kaioshin- 27
Good Buu- 21
Dai Kaioshin- 2

Well, unless I specifically say otherwise, I don't count filler for my power comparisons. That's not to say I disagree with you for doing so; I just don't do it myself.

And I don't consider power gaps to be consistent. I got over that mindset when Goku at 3 million was surviving hits from Freeza at 60 million. And there was no way he was using the Kaio-Ken x 10 throughout that entire fight, especially when Freeza was beating on him while charging the Genki Dama. And even if he was, that's still numerous attacks from a 2x gap by a guy who admittedly has trouble controlling his power.
As for Buu's mental state, he was terrified of Gray Buu, and he knew he couldn't win against Pure Buu. That's enough to lower the courage and state of mind aspects of ki, respectively, for me.

[RandomGuy96]

He was mad at Kid Buu at first and still was shown to be a lot weaker. The narrator also specifically said that he couldn't beat Grey Buu because his POWER was far inferior. Seems pretty clear. I just don't see why Mr. Buu needs to be that high; as I said I think the levels for Buff Buu and Mr. Buu would fit much better if Grand Kaioshin was a 2. Any reason that you have the latter so strong...?

Freeza is capable of pulling his punches. He does that a lot.

[Kamiccolo9]

He was mad at Kid Buu at first and still was shown to be a lot weaker. I just don't see why Mr. Buu needs to be that high; as I said I think the levels for Buff Buu and Mr. Buu would fit much better if Grand Kaioshin was a 2. Any reason that you have the latter so strong...?

Freeza is capable of pulling his punches. He does that a lot.

When Mr. Buu was mad, he and Pure Buu seemed about even, with Pure Buu having the advantage.
Pure kicked Mr., Mr. heabutted Pure, Pure grabbed Mr.'s antenna, Mr. blasted Buu's arm off, Pure tackled Mr.'s head off. It was a back and forth match until Mr. Buu admitted he couldn't win. And he still managed to get a few hits in even after that. There's definitely not that big of a gap here.

Also, there's Piccolo's earlier quote about Super Buu having a body made for fighting, implying that Fat Buu's was not (which is kinda obvious when you think about it.) Pure Buu is a scaled down Super Buu; he's better built for fighting than Mr. and Fat Buu are. That's an entirely separate think from actual battle power though.

Why would Freeza power up to 50%, and then punch using only 10% or so of his power? And seeing how much difficulty he has with fine control over his power without transformations, I doubt he can. And he was pissed when Goku was ignoring him to charge the Genki Dama, and kicked him, hard, in the face. He even has an aura while doing it. Same with his headbutt after surviving Goku's x20 Kamehameha. Freeza is angry here, and using attacks with his aura flaring. It doesn't look at all like he's holding back.

[RandomGuy96]

He was mad at Kid Buu at first and still was shown to be a lot weaker. I just don't see why Mr. Buu needs to be that high; as I said I think the levels for Buff Buu and Mr. Buu would fit much better if Grand Kaioshin was a 2. Any reason that you have the latter so strong...?

Freeza is capable of pulling his punches. He does that a lot.

When Mr. Buu was mad, he and Pure Buu seemed about even, with Pure Buu having the advantage.
Pure kicked Mr., Mr. heabutted Pure, Pure grabbed Mr.'s antenna, Mr. blasted Buu's arm off, Pure tackled Mr.'s head off. It was a back and forth match until Mr. Buu admitted he couldn't win. And he still managed to get a few hits in even after that. There's definitely not that big of a gap here.

Also, there's Piccolo's earlier quote about Super Buu having a body made for fighting, implying that Fat Buu's was not (which is kinda obvious when you think about it.) Pure Buu is a scaled down Super Buu; he's better built for fighting than Mr. and Fat Buu are. That's an entirely separate think from actual battle power though.

Why would Freeza power up to 50%, and then punch using only 10% or so of his power? And seeing how much difficulty he has with fine control over his power without transformations, I doubt he can. And he was pissed when Goku was ignoring him to charge the Genki Dama, and kicked him, hard, in the face. He even has an aura while doing it. Same with his headbutt after surviving Goku's x20 Kamehameha. Freeza is angry here, and using attacks with his aura flaring. It doesn't look at all like he's holding back.

He doesn't get in any hits after that, unless you count the anime, except that one time where he countered Kid Buu's hold with a choke slam. There definitely seemed to be a giant gap here, mostly because, well, Kid Buu was beating the crap out of him easily. There's also the narrator outright saying he's too weak to beat Evil Buu, without implying anything else having a hand in it, and just mentioning power.

Mr. Buu's admission of inferiority was just him being realistic; he must have known he was much weaker than Kid Buu to just outright say that he can't win, and he didn't seem to have a defeatist attitude like Dodoria did, since he was still mad at Kid Buu afterwards when trying to attack him and defend his friend. He just seemed a lot weaker, and I don't really see what suggests him and Kid Buu being equals here.

Was it ever confirmed he was at 50% when he attacked Goku? He could've just suppressed himself again to make Goku suffer. Also, plot armor.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Freeza wasn't taking Goku seriously when he was charging the Genki Dama. He kept telling Goku to attack him, and even admitted he was ready to finish the battle because he was bored with Goku. After blocking Goku's blast, he does attack him with a powerful headbutt, but he also tells Goku he's sure he doesn't want the battle to end so quickly, so I don't think he was trying to finish him there.

[Kamiccolo9]

He doesn't get in any hits after that, unless you count the anime, except that one time where he countered Kid Buu's hold with a choke slam. There definitely seemed to be a giant gap here, mostly because, well, Kid Buu was beating the crap out of him easily. There's also the narrator outright saying he's too weak to beat Evil Buu, without implying anything else having a hand in it, and just mentioning power.

Mr. Buu's admission of inferiority was just him being realistic; he must have known he was much weaker than Kid Buu to just outright say that he can't win, and he didn't seem to have a defeatist attitude like Dodoria did, since he was still mad at Kid Buu afterwards when trying to attack him and defend his friend. He just seemed a lot weaker, and I don't really see what suggests him and Kid Buu being equals here.

Was it ever confirmed he was at 50% when he attacked Goku? He could've just suppressed himself again to make Goku suffer. Also, plot armor.

From the way the picture is drawn, it looks like he got some hits in while he and Pure Buu were exchanging blows on the page after Mr. Buu's chocolate beam. There are "flashes" (not sure what else to call them) on Pure Buu's side of the panel as well.

I'm not saying they are equal. I'm saying that, in terms of strength, Pure Buu has a slight advantage, and in terms of stamina and speed, (not to mention sheer unpredictability and craziness) Pure Buu has a huge advantage. Mr. Buu is fat. His body isn't built for fighting. Pure Buu is in shape, and he's fully confident that he's gonna win. See the earlier quote about Super Buu having a "body better built for fighting." Battle power doesn't take into consideration non-ki attributes, otherwise Vegeta and Kui wouldn't have the same power level, and Zarbon and Dodoria wouldn't be so close to Vegeta.
As for what the narrator said, unless you're stronger, you can't beat a Buu by beating him to death. You have to overwhelm him with a huge ki attack, like Goku was going to do to Pure Buu. Mr. Buu couldn't do that. And regardless, like I said earlier, I don't use the anime in these discussions. The narrator says nothing of the sort in the manga, unless I've missed something.

Freeza said he was at 50%, and was never shown or implied to lower his strength. Plot armor isn't an in universe argument.

Freeza wasn't taking Goku seriously when he was charging the Genki Dama. He kept telling Goku to attack him, and even admitted he was ready to finish the battle because he was bored with Goku. After blocking Goku's blast, he does attack him with a powerful headbutt, but he also tells Goku he's sure he doesn't want the battle to end so quickly, so I don't think he was trying to finish him there.

He might not have been trying to finish him, but he's definitely not holding back much. His aura flares during both attacks, and he is pissed. Goku also says that his power is almost gone after his 20x Kaioken, so he's nowhere near 3 million when Freeza is beating on him. Freeza at 50% is 60 million. He would have to be supressing himself down to his initial final form level, or possibly even lower than that to not accidentally one-shot Goku, assuming that power level gaps are 100% consistent. Freeza has trouble controlling even his second form's power when he's calm; there is no way that he can suppress himself that much in his true form while angry. We even see his aura flare; something that wasn't being done during the rest of the 50% Freeza-Goku beatdown, implying that these attacks were even stronger than the one's he was using previously.

[mAcChaos]

As for what the narrator said, unless you're stronger, you can't beat a Buu by beating him to death. You have to overwhelm him with a huge ki attack, like Goku was going to do to Pure Buu. Mr. Buu couldn't do that. And regardless, like I said earlier, I don't use the anime in these discussions. The narrator says nothing of the sort in the manga, unless I've missed something.

That's why I don't think SSJ3 Goku could beat Fat Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

As for what the narrator said, unless you're stronger, you can't beat a Buu by beating him to death. You have to overwhelm him with a huge ki attack, like Goku was going to do to Pure Buu. Mr. Buu couldn't do that. And regardless, like I said earlier, I don't use the anime in these discussions. The narrator says nothing of the sort in the manga, unless I've missed something.

That's why I don't think SSJ3 Goku could beat Fat Buu.

He could have done a big ki blast, or just beaten him to death. Goku was a good deal stronger than Fat Buu was when they fought. And he says himself that he could have killed Fat Buu.

[mAcChaos]

He thought a lot of times he could beat different forms of Buu before actually getting proven wrong.

How would he have enough time to generate such a ki blast? Look how big the Spirit Bomb had to be before it finally obliterated Buu. If it was just a big Kamehameha, Gotenks and others did plenty of similar attacks to him and he still came back from it. How could he stop that from happening again.

[RandomGuy96]

From the way the picture is drawn, it looks like he got some hits in while he and Pure Buu were exchanging blows on the page after Mr. Buu's chocolate beam. There are "flashes" (not sure what else to call them) on Pure Buu's side of the panel as well.

I'm not saying they are equal. I'm saying that, in terms of strength, Pure Buu has a slight advantage, and in terms of stamina and speed, (not to mention sheer unpredictability and craziness) Pure Buu has a huge advantage. Mr. Buu is fat. His body isn't built for fighting. Pure Buu is in shape, and he's fully confident that he's gonna win. See the earlier quote about Super Buu having a "body better built for fighting." Battle power doesn't take into consideration non-ki attributes, otherwise Vegeta and Kui wouldn't have the same power level, and Zarbon and Dodoria wouldn't be so close to Vegeta.
As for what the narrator said, unless you're stronger, you can't beat a Buu by beating him to death. You have to overwhelm him with a huge ki attack, like Goku was going to do to Pure Buu. Mr. Buu couldn't do that. And regardless, like I said earlier, I don't use the anime in these discussions. The narrator says nothing of the sort in the manga, unless I've missed something.

Freeza said he was at 50%, and was never shown or implied to lower his strength. Plot armor isn't an in universe argument.

That's not Mr. Buu getting in hits, that's Kid Buu easily blocking Mr. Buu's blows with a smile on his face.

You have them as very, very close in power, which is what I usually consider equal. Which I disagree with; nothing suggested they were so close. Kid Buu had a huge advantage in not just speed and skill, but strength, from beginning to end. I didn't see a single thing that implied Mr. Buu being so powerful. What makes you think they're so close? Is it out of some need to have Grand Kaioshin really strong? Why does he need to be so strong? Do you think the whole point of that fight was to show that Mr. Buu and Kid Buu were really close in power?

I just think 10 to 12 works better for all purposes is all. The same as the difference between Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks.

But what the narrator said is "he doesn't have a chance". That implies a massive gap; a slim chance or little chance would be more appropriate here. But nope, the narrator just says he's too WEAK to win. The narrator says this in the manga:

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

He outright says that the reason that Good Buu can't win is that Evil Buu is much more powerful.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

None of them ever had a chance to actually use a finishing attack on Majin Boo, though. Super Gotenks defused before using his Kame-Hame-Ha and completely erasing Super Boo with his Chi so he couldn't regenerate. Goku never had a chance to gather all of his Chi in Super Saiyan 3 to wipe Kid Boo out, so we don't know if his plan would've worked or not--same with Fat Boo. None of them were actually proven wrong.

[Mjb1985]

I think Gotenks and Goku could have finished Buu with FP KHH.

Mr. Buu to me represents a good representation of what Ssj3 Goku vs Fat Buu would look like imo. I also just don't view Good Buu or Evil Buu as all that strong. They are just a percentage of someone who is capable of giving Goku a halfwy decent fight.

[RandomGuy96]

As I've said, I just go by the power meter, as it seems to fit perfectly. Fatty didn't seem close to Goku at all; Goku tanked his surprise punch and slapped away his full power Kamehameha without any effort at all. And he wasn't outputting his full power.

Mr. Buu = Fat Buu just really doesn't make any mathematical sense, as they're composed of entirely different components, hence why I have Mr. Buu = South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin.

[Kamiccolo9]

He thought a lot of times he could beat different forms of Buu before actually getting proven wrong.

How would he have enough time to generate such a ki blast? Look how big the Spirit Bomb had to be before it finally obliterated Buu. If it was just a big Kamehameha, Gotenks and others did plenty of similar attacks to him and he still came back from it. How could he stop that from happening again.

Gotenks wasnt many times stronger than Super Buu. There is a huge gap between Fat Buu and Goku.
Goku only fought two forms of Buu: Fat Buu and Pure Buu. And he was never proven wrong. He was unable to blast Buu because he couldn't sustain SSJ3 while living. He didn't have that limitation while fighting Fat Buu.
And again, Goku actually says that he could defeat Fat Buu. He knows all about Buu's regeneration. He was still sure that he could have won.

And out of universe, why even put that line in if it wasn't true? What would be the point? Toryama was obviously saying that Goku could have killed Fat Buu.

From the way the picture is drawn, it looks like he got some hits in while he and Pure Buu were exchanging blows on the page after Mr. Buu's chocolate beam. There are "flashes" (not sure what else to call them) on Pure Buu's side of the panel as well.

I'm not saying they are equal. I'm saying that, in terms of strength, Pure Buu has a slight advantage, and in terms of stamina and speed, (not to mention sheer unpredictability and craziness) Pure Buu has a huge advantage. Mr. Buu is fat. His body isn't built for fighting. Pure Buu is in shape, and he's fully confident that he's gonna win. See the earlier quote about Super Buu having a "body better built for fighting." Battle power doesn't take into consideration non-ki attributes, otherwise Vegeta and Kui wouldn't have the same power level, and Zarbon and Dodoria wouldn't be so close to Vegeta.
As for what the narrator said, unless you're stronger, you can't beat a Buu by beating him to death. You have to overwhelm him with a huge ki attack, like Goku was going to do to Pure Buu. Mr. Buu couldn't do that. And regardless, like I said earlier, I don't use the anime in these discussions. The narrator says nothing of the sort in the manga, unless I've missed something.

Freeza said he was at 50%, and was never shown or implied to lower his strength. Plot armor isn't an in universe argument.

That's not Mr. Buu getting in hits, that's Kid Buu easily blocking Mr. Buu's blows with a smile on his face.

You have them as very, very close in power, which is what I usually consider equal. Which I disagree with; nothing suggested they were so close. Kid Buu had a huge advantage in not just speed and skill, but strength, from beginning to end. I didn't see a single thing that implied Mr. Buu being so powerful. What makes you think they're so close? Is it out of some need to have Grand Kaioshin really strong? Why does he need to be so strong?

But what the narrator said is "he doesn't have a chance". That implies a massive gap; a slim chance or little chance would be more appropriate here. But nope, the narrator just says he's too WEAK to win. The narrator says this in the manga:

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

He outright says that the reason that Good Buu can't win is that Evil Buu is much more powerful.

They were close to equal in the beginning of the fight. But Mr. Buu can't keep up with Pure Buu for long due to Pure Buu's stamina.
I'm working on making Dai Kaioshin an direct subtraction, but you're right, he could be multiplicative instead, and that would make him weaker. It would make it to where Mr. Buu was basically South Kaioshin's power in a Dai Kaioshin flavored Buu coating, which I do kinda like. I'll consider changing that.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Mr. Buu vs Pure Buu. No wonder I didn't see anything
That quote just means he's weaker than Gray Buu. Seeing as we have numerous different accounts of what kind of gap it takes to beat an opponent, given Mr. Buu's being terrified of Gray Buu, and given Gray Buu's no-nonsense attitude during the fight, there is no reason to assume that Mr. Buu was fighting at full efficiency here. It wouldn't change the outcome either way, but I can see Mr. Buu putting up a better fight if he and Gray Buu just happened to bump into each other walking down the street, and decided to fight. Remember, Mr. Buu had just had an extremely traumatic experience involving the possible death of his one true friend, the expelling of the majority of his power, watching a pure evil version of himself emerge... people don't perform well under that kind of pressure.


But like I said earlier, I may weaken Mr. Buu by making Dai Kaioshin additive for him and multiplicative for his negative influence on Buff Buu.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Was Mr. Boo actually terrified of Grey Boo?

[Kamiccolo9]

Was Mr. Boo actually terrified of Grey Boo?

He definitely looked like it when Gray Buu first appeared. His teeth are clenched, he's sweating, and when Gray Buu gets in his face, he starts backing away from him.

[RandomGuy96]

They were close to equal in the beginning of the fight. But Mr. Buu can't keep up with Pure Buu for long due to Pure Buu's stamina.
I'm working on making Dai Kaioshin an direct subtraction, but you're right, he could be multiplicative instead, and that would make him weaker. It would make it to where Mr. Buu was basically South Kaioshin's power in a Dai Kaioshin flavored Buu coating, which I do kinda like. I'll consider changing that.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Mr. Buu vs Pure Buu. No wonder I didn't see anything
That quote just means he's weaker than Gray Buu. Seeing as we have numerous different accounts of what kind of gap it takes to beat an opponent, given Mr. Buu's being terrified of Gray Buu, and given Gray Buu's no-nonsense attitude during the fight, there is no reason to assume that Mr. Buu was fighting at full efficiency here. It wouldn't change the outcome either way, but I can see Mr. Buu putting up a better fight if he and Gray Buu just happened to bump into each other walking down the street, and decided to fight. Remember, Mr. Buu had just had an extremely traumatic experience involving the possible death of his one true friend, the expelling of the majority of his power, watching a pure evil version of himself emerge... people don't perform well under that kind of pressure.


But like I said earlier, I may weaken Mr. Buu by making Dai Kaioshin additive for him and multiplicative for his negative influence on Buff Buu.

Kid Buu always had an advantage, and Mr. Buu also has infinite stamina (or at least he should, they're both Majins), so it's a moot point.

I wasn't saying that it should be multiplicative; I was more wondering why there needs to be a big difference between Super Buu/Full Power Fat Buu and Buff Buu in the first place. I think it'd work perfectly if Grand Kaioshin was a 2 and was just straight subtraction. Goku could barley notice a rise in Super Buu's power when he went buff, having to question whether or not it was even happening, and the Daizenshuu said that Grand Kaioshin only somewhat weakened Buff Buu. Definitely doesn't imply a huge gap, don't you think? 10% seems 'bout right. It's a small thing, but it does help Mr. Buu fit better. I also just think it looks neater to have Super Buu exactly 10% weaker...

As I've said, I'd just recommend a straight nerf of Mr. Buu given his poor performance. Do you think Toriyama really intended that fight to convey "They're basically equals in power, but Kid Buu is faster, more 'skilled', and more confident" with that fight? Or was that point of showing Kid Buu easily beating up on Mr. Buu to show that Kid Buu is stronger?

[Mjb1985]

There's no way I could ever buy Goku being many times stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo would have shouted him out in front of everyone.