Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[MDSTSSJ]

Toriyama clarifies in one of his more recent interviews that it's in Goku's character to always think about getting stronger, not that he actually continues to become stronger

To become stronger you need to think about getting stronger. That´s why Goku has always exceeded his limits.

[PerfectFreeza]

Tihs might be out of universe argument, but I think Beers's statement is just hype for the next possible BOG continuation.

[Son_Gohan]

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly. Transformations aren't everything. They just amplify the power you've already got by some average amount and can only take you so far. Even when Goku's made his biggest gains from getting new forms to use, he's always still gained strength on top of that through training and effort alone. Always.

Constantly and never-endingly working hard to become stronger is the very CORE of Goku's character. He will ALWAYS keep getting stronger. It's who he is, plain and simple. If you lose sight of that, then you have a very twisted and misguided view of not just the character, but of the series as a whole.

No matter how many in-universe facts you memorize and can recite, if you seriously say and believe, "Goku hit his limits and can't get any stronger no matter how hard he tries," then you don't know jack squat about what Dragon Ball really is.

I'm out of this discussion before it gets any more preposterous. Make use of the report button if I need to do anything moderator-ish.

They are in this case. Transformations are what have been opening new avenues of strength for them. To keep progressing they require new forms. This is made evident before the Cell Games when they're established to have taken their SSj1 as far as it could go where further training would be fruitless. They became stronger from there only because SSj2 existed.

According to Toriyama, Goku only thinks about getting stronger, not that he will always keep becoming stronger. I am not the one saying it:

The key words this time, “God of Destruction Birus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

If you're going to claim that the very author of the series knows jack squat of what Dragon Ball really is in relation to yourself, then you've taken fanboyism to a whole new level.

The only one making it preposterous is you, there's no need to take it too personally.

[TheGmGoken]

If you're going to claim that the very author of the series knows jack squat of what Dragon Ball really is in relation to yourself, then you've taken fanboyism to a whole new level.

Once again. The author also forgets a lot of things. I'm sorry but if this was Mr.AT in his prime then I would agree. But after he thought SSJ2 had long hair then I just can't. He forgot who MAIN characters are sometimes. Plus in the movie Birsu said Vegeta and Goku will get stronger. So how you explain that?

[Draken]

If you're going to claim that the very author of the series knows jack squat of what Dragon Ball really is in relation to yourself, then you've taken fanboyism to a whole new level.

Once again. The author also forgets a lot of things. I'm sorry but if this was Mr.AT in his prime then I would agree. But after he thought SSJ2 had long hair then I just can't. He forgot who MAIN characters are sometimes. Plus in the movie Birsu said Vegeta and Goku will get stronger. So how you explain that?

SSG + SSG2.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Omg, I am so glad I made this thread. You guys are surely helping me a lot in understanding that it's very possible that Goku (without SSJG) is weaker than Gohan/Gotenks still by the end of the series as a SSJ3.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

If you're going to claim that the very author of the series knows jack squat of what Dragon Ball really is in relation to yourself, then you've taken fanboyism to a whole new level.

Once again. The author also forgets a lot of things. I'm sorry but if this was Mr.AT in his prime then I would agree. But after he thought SSJ2 had long hair then I just can't. He forgot who MAIN characters are sometimes. Plus in the movie Birsu said Vegeta and Goku will get stronger. So how you explain that?

SSG + SSG2.

I'd say SSJG training and then maybe, JUST MAYBE....they achieve SSJG2. But I see it as what Birus meant was that getting stronger through SSJG training.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I found the Kaboom rant was a little different from what I would expect him to generally say. There are like three or four statements about how this was their general limit and the explanation that Goku always wants to get stronger even if he can't seemed to solidify this point of view for me. It seems pretty clear.

I might not support a lot of the supplementary material, but I have a real hard time not taking what the actual author has said to heart.

I do understand the prime AT vs forgetful AT stuff though. Everyone has their own view on how things play out and it's good to have a lot of different opinions. On this issue, I'm more inclined to side with BOG being their limit more or less.

The latent power comment is interesting though. So it's not a complete done deal, but I'm generally siding with the author's point of view here.

[hleV]

Goku said he and Gohan had hit the limit back in the ROSAT. 7 years later as a SS2 Goku's stronger than Cell Games' rage-boosted SS2 Gohan. So yeah, that's limits in Dragon Ball.

It's taken to mean the same thing according to the Daizenshuu.

The Elder Kaioshin has the unique ability of unlocking peoples' dormant potential by doing a strange dance.

Well what the fuck is dormant potential in the first place? To my understanding, it's dormant power which can potentially be accessed, but not potential, which means the absolute maximum of what Gohan would ever be capable of.

[Mjb1985]

Considering that Goku wasn't all that far behind Gohan at the CG and not everyone goes with the enraged boost, Goku improving say 1.25-1.5x over 7 years of Otherworld training of all places seems to heavily suggest Goku's improvements are done for the most part. Small incremental improvements but nothing of real significance anymore.

Dormant potential is your absolute potential Hiev. Gohan is not only brought up to his dormant potential, but way beyond it. In lamest terms, Gohan could never achieve that level of power of his own doing.

[ZombieVito]

This is the first time I agree with Kaboom (I'm scared). There is no such thing as a unreachable limit or prime in DB.

[Mjb1985]

So when the author says they are at their limit and prime you disagree?

[TheGmGoken]

So when the author says they are at their limit and prime you disagree?

He has his flaws. Remember the whole Cell head being blow up is the only way to kill him. Well....Goku shot his upper half off. Explain that. He made a mistake and doesn't remember the series well. Hell in the movie Birsu said Goku and Vegeta will get stronger.

[hleV]

Can anyone quote the exact author's wording?

Dormant potential is your absolute potential Hiev. Gohan is not only brought up to his dormant potential, but way beyond it. In lamest terms, Gohan could never achieve that level of power of his own doing.

What you've just described is potential. And I disagree that dormant potential means potential. I believe that by dormant potential they meant dormant power (that's how it's worded in Daizenshuu 7).

Dormant means something that is there, but inaccessible.
Potential means something that's possible to achieve, but not necessarily something that's already there.

[Mjb1985]

We won't see eye to eye on this. Elder Kaioshin's power up is no ordinary power up, he alone is the only one capable of bringing your past your total limits imo. That was what was so special about the power up.

[Son_Gohan]

Once again. The author also forgets a lot of things. I'm sorry but if this was Mr.AT in his prime then I would agree. But after he thought SSJ2 had long hair then I just can't. He forgot who MAIN characters are sometimes. Plus in the movie Birsu said Vegeta and Goku will get stronger. So how you explain that?

It could only be considered forgotten if it's something he's actually affirmed before. He has never stated that their growth potential was to be unlimited, and even from interviews years back he basically expressed how it was the plot that dictated them to become stronger. Not to mention it's not a trifle detail being talked about, the theme of Dragon Ball is all-encompassing, and would be deeply ingrained in his mind more than anyone's.

In the movie, Goku becomes stronger from a magic-esque transformation that he doesn't achieve through his normal capacities. In the manga's closing volumes, Goku's most powerful form is handicapped outside of supernatural circumstances, Vegeta peaks in his training and had to become stronger through Babidi's magic, Gohan becomes stronger than he'd ever be naturally through Elder Kaioshin's magic. If you haven't taken the hint yet, training is expressed to be an obsolete mode of strength that they can no longer rely on. It's all about the supernatural at this point in the story.

Goku said he and Gohan had hit the limit back in the ROSAT. 7 years later as a SS2 Goku's stronger than Cell Games' rage-boosted SS2 Gohan. So yeah, that's limits in Dragon Ball.

It's taken to mean the same thing according to the Daizenshuu.

The Elder Kaioshin has the unique ability of unlocking peoples' dormant potential by doing a strange dance.

Well what the fuck is dormant potential in the first place? To my understanding, it's dormant power which can potentially be accessed, but not potential, which means the absolute maximum of what Gohan would ever be capable of.

That's surpassing a form with a new form, not the limit within a form. It seems people are having trouble discerning this. Once they run out of new transformations they've reached the strongest they can become by natural means. SSj3 is established to be that ultimate limit.

Simply, it's power that resides within in him that he hasn't achieved yet. There's no difference in what term you'd use to describe it.

[TheGmGoken]

If you haven't taken the hint yet, training is expressed to be an obsolete mode of strength that they can no longer rely on. It's all about the supernatural at this point in the story

But they can still GET STRONGER. Supernatural or not. They still get stronger.

[Son_Gohan]

If you haven't taken the hint yet, training is expressed to be an obsolete mode of strength that they can no longer rely on. It's all about the supernatural at this point in the story

But they can still GET STRONGER. Supernatural or not. They still get stronger.

Yes, just not through their own abilities.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

If you haven't taken the hint yet, training is expressed to be an obsolete mode of strength that they can no longer rely on. It's all about the supernatural at this point in the story

But they can still GET STRONGER. Supernatural or not. They still get stronger.

Yes, just not through their own abilities.

But lets say it is true that Goku has reached his absolute limit in training his MSSJ to get stronger. Once he ascended to SSJ2 and trained in that form, that also makes his MSSJ state get stronger by default as he trains in SSJ2 repeatedly as well as making his base stronger too.

[Kamiccolo9]

Does anyone else get sick and tired of "Toriyama forgets stuff! He's unreliable!"
The man isn't senile. He's not some kind of terminal Alzheimer's victim. He occasionally forgets a few details about the manga he finished 20 YEARS AGO.
What's more, he's specifically said that he read through the manga again in preparation for Battle of Gods, so how is the forgetfulness thing even an excuse here?
Just because some fans have put way too much time into overanalyzing every single fucking word that the man has written down does not make them a higher authority on the fictional work than the author himself.
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Ok, calm now. Rant over
Like I said, there is no reason to discount what Toriyama has said about the people being at their strongest. Kaboom's interpretation works, so does Son Gohan's and Mjb1985's. My own interpretation is that they've pretty much maxed out by that point using the methods of training available to them. They can still get stronger through training, but huge gains are over with without the aid of new transformations or super magical training methods that may appear.

Just quit saying Toryama is unreliable because he forgets stuff. That's fucking stupid.