SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Kamiccolo9]

As I've said, I'd just recommend a straight nerf of Mr. Buu given his poor performance. Do you think Toriyama really intended that fight to convey "They're basically equals in power, but Kid Buu is faster, more 'skilled', and more confident" with that fight? Or was that point of showing Kid Buu easily beating up on Mr. Buu to show that Kid Buu is stronger?

If I can do that and still make Mr. Buu and Good Buu equal, than I will.
My problem with your levels is that I make no distinction between the two of them. They are composed of the same parts (Dai and South Kaioshin) and there's no reason for him to be stronger against Pure Buu than he was against Gray Buu.

Those numbers were thought up really fast, but if you can come up with a way to get rid of the need for different levels for Mr. and Good Buu, I'll gladly accept it.

Come to think of it though, Mr. Buu was sweating and panting heavily after expelling Gray Buu. Could he have been weaker due to the process itself? We see that a Buu's stamina can run low if they are being beaten; could the expulsion process have tired him out, in addition to getting rid of the evil power?

[Mjb1985]

Good Buu already expelled Evil Buu, he probably can't expel another one.

Mr. Buu could potentially expel another Evil Buu.

There definitely could be a difference.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not saying you have to follow my levels, just making a general suggestion. If you want to have Evil = Kid and Good = Mr, then you can just say that Evil Buu was more skilled and less unhinged than Kid Buu due to some Kaioshin influence, letting him take better advantage of his huge power gap. Something like:

Buff Buu- 20
Super Buu- 18
Kid Buu- 12
Evil Buu- 12
Mr. Buu- 10
South Kaioshin- 8
Grand Kaioshin- 2

That doesn't really fit my personal preferences (i have a ton, like having South Kaioshin not too far off from Kid Buu, having Good + Evil = Super, having Good < Mr.), but it pretty much works.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not saying you have to follow my levels, just making a general suggestion. If you want to have Evil = Kid and Good = Mr, then you can just say that Evil Buu was more skilled and less unhinged than Kid Buu due to some Kaioshin influence, letting him take better advantage of his huge power gap. Something like:

Buff Buu- 20
Super Buu- 18
Kid Buu- 12
Mr. Buu- 10
South Kaioshin- 8
Grand Kaioshin- 2

That doesn't really fit my personal preferences (i have a ton, like having South Kaioshin not too far off from Kid Buu, having Good + Evil = Super, having Good < Mr.), but it pretty much works.

Sorry if I came off as rude in that last post. I was being completely serious
Those numbers work for me. Thanks!

[Mjb1985]

There's no way I would ever make South Kaioshin 4x stronger than Dai Kaioshin just to make some fan made mathematical power levels work. It's not worth it imo, the numbers ruin everything. 4x stronger!

[RandomGuy96]

Literally all we know about how they stack up to each other is that South Kaioshin is stronger. That's it. Nothing says he's not four times stronger (and the only thing that actually shows us SK's strength, the anime, does show him as pretty beastly).

[Mjb1985]

Yea so lets make him 4x stronger. Lol. Don't you think you can use something a bit more reasonable and put the power levels down for a second?

[RandomGuy96]

Still not seeing how it's not reasonable, or why he can't be four times stronger when nothing said or implied he wasn't. We know one thing about how they stack up in relation to each other: South Kaioshin is stronger. That's it.

[Mjb1985]

When someone says oh hey South is the strongest of the Kaioshin I don't automatically think he's 4x stronger than the second strongest. That's pretty insane imo. I think West-North-South and Dai all fall along a similar plane and if you are using the anime filler I definitely wouldn't use 4x man.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't see the problem. South Kaioshin is just the strongest Kaioshin. In comparison
Piccolo is the strongest Namekian. He is many more than 4x stronger than the next strongest Namekian. If you discount him because of his fusions, Nail was at 42,000. The next strongest warriors we saw were at 3,000. The average Namekian is probably weaker than that.

Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan during the Saiyan arc. He was almost 5x stronger than Nappa, who was the next strongest after him. He was over twice as strong as Goku.

Krillin is the strongest Earthling. He is thousands of times stronger than the average Earthling.

There's no reason, in universe or out, that prevents South Kaioshin from being much stronger than Dai Kaioshin. What's more, since the Kaioshin are chosen by lottery, power has nothing to do with the position anyway. South Kaioshin is basically just the Kaioshin equivalent of Krillin-the strongest of his race.

[Mjb1985]

I'm just 99% sure if you put the formulas and calculators down, no one would think South Kaioshin is that superior. Seems odd to me, but to each his own.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm just 99% sure if you put the formulas and calculators down, no one would think South Kaioshin is that superior. Seems odd to me, but to each his own.

Preaching to the choir here. Did you not just see my long explanation on why I think a consistent formula for battle powers affecting fights doesn't work?

Given that literally all we know about South Kaioshin is that he is the strongest Kaioshin, there's no reason to think he's any less than 4x as strong either. Since we know that power has nothing to do with how a Kaioshin is picked, then it really doesn't matter how strong Southy is.

[RandomGuy96]

When someone says oh hey South is the strongest of the Kaioshin I don't automatically think he's 4x stronger than the second strongest. That's pretty insane imo. I think West-North-South and Dai all fall along a similar plane and if you are using the anime filler I definitely wouldn't use 4x man.

But as Kamiccolo said, every other time someone is described as the strongest of their kind, they're the strongest BY FAR. Captain Ginyu being the strongest Ginyu, Nail being the strongest warrior Namek, Vegeta being the strongest saiyan, Krillin being the strongest Earthling, Dabura being the strongest of the Demon Realm, Cell being the strongest creation of Gero... there are tons of examples. So it's reasonable, nay logical, to think that SK is that strong. I figure something must set him apart from the others to make Kid Buu deem him worthy of absorption, and since literally we all we are told about him is that he was a Kaioshin that was stronger than the other Kaioshin...

There's no more reason for SK to not be that much stronger than GK than there is for Nail to not be that much stronger than a typical Namekian warrior.

I don't see the problem with using x4 in the anime filler. South Kaioshin was able to land a couple hits on Buu before going down while the others were killed effortlessly.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I think power levels are terrible nowadays. They end up overriding people's points of view of a pure story mentality.

I never got the feeling South was a God among Gods. I think all the Kaioshins reside in a similar plane of power.

For me he was simply stronger. Not dramatically stronger. We just won't see eye to eye here. We have completely different points of view of majority of the Buu Saga.

[RandomGuy96]

But there's really nothing to determine how strong he is. Again, literally all we know is that he's stronger than the other Kaioshin. That's it. Even if I wasn't thinking in PL terms, I'd still think he's much stronger than the others, because of the anime filler and because I figure something about him must have been special for Buu to absorb him. And since the only information we're ever given is that he's strong...

[Mjb1985]

I would think there is a difference between a little bit stronger, stronger and greatly stronger. If South Kaioshin was so much more dominant over the other Kaioshins, a simple " he's the strongest " wouldn't do it justice imo.

For me to think of South Kaioshin is that strong I would need a statement suggesting his ridiculous power.

But this is a pointless debate. You are using this logic because it suits your power levels. Which isn't the right way to do it imo. The best way if you must do power levels is to worry about the numbers last and firstly worry about the story and it's implications. Everyone has their own way of doing things but I always see people being influenced by their own power level chart, maybe it's not what you are doing, but I get that feeling.

[RandomGuy96]

I would think there is a difference between a little bit stronger, stronger and greatly stronger. If South Kaioshin was so much more dominant over the other Kaioshins, a simple " he's the strongest " wouldn't do it justice imo.

For me to think of South Kaioshin is that strong I would need a statement suggesting his ridiculous power.

Except "he's the strongest" never means "he's stronger than everyone else but not by a lot". It usually means the exact oppossite.

But this is a pointless debate. You are using this logic because it suits your power levels

Uh... no. I structure them around what I think the story suggests.

Which isn't the right way to do it imo. The best way if you must do power levels is to worry about the numbers last and firstly worry about the story and it's implications. Everyone has their own way of doing things but I always see people being influenced by their own power level chart, maybe it's not what you are doing, but I get that feeling.

Here's the thing: I'd still think that SK is that strong even if I wasn't making a power level list, because I think the story suggests it. He was shown getting some shots in on Kid Buu in the anime (yeah, filler, but I see no reason not to use it when there's nothing else but fan speculation), should logically be the majority of the power in Mr. Buu (who was shown putting up a fight against Kid Buu), was absorbed after the first two were killed, suggesting something special about him (and to our knowledge the only thing that sets him apart from those two is that he's stronger than them....), is specifically noted to be the strongest and that's all we get about him (think about that from a Doylist perspective), gave Kid Buu a beastly boost no matter how you look at it, comes from a series where "the strongest" is always head and shoulders above everyone else (see King Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Android 16, Cell, Dabura, Goku himself, Gohan post-Buu), et cetera. I wouldn't think he's exactly x times stronger than the others, but then I wouldn't know how many times stronger Kid Buu would be compared to SS2 Vegeta, I'd just assume he was a lot stronger.

[Mjb1985]

I hear you. I generally won't place DK any lower than 75% of SK.

I think my general placement for all Kaioshins is somewhere between 40-80% of Super Saiyan Goku CG.